We are getting there.... :)
It is very slow in this forum.
Let's lit a little.
What do you think about this ?
<a href="http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2002/apr/07panasonic.html"; target="_blank">http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2002/apr/07panasonic.html</a>;
If you think this with current Firewire, you are getting old soon.
Think GIGAWIRE !
And how about this thing ?
<a href="http://www.oqo.com"; target="_blank">http://www.oqo.com</a>;
It is full computer but use WinXP <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
Let's lit a little.
What do you think about this ?
<a href="http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2002/apr/07panasonic.html"; target="_blank">http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2002/apr/07panasonic.html</a>;
If you think this with current Firewire, you are getting old soon.
Think GIGAWIRE !
And how about this thing ?
<a href="http://www.oqo.com"; target="_blank">http://www.oqo.com</a>;
It is full computer but use WinXP <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
Comments
I was just reading about that Oqo device <a href="http://news.com.com/2100-1040-883861.html"; target="_blank">on CNET</a> and was a little worried that it was set up by ex-Apple Ti engineers. Got me thinking, if they have left to form a startup, who is doing the iPod (and other iDevice designs? Both seem like very good examples of miniaturisation: I hope Apple has not lost the cream of its talent in this area ...
My friend recently bought a Mini DV camera recently, only to find it didn't work with QT and FCP3 yet. Seems like good news Apple will be supporting the format. It's also good that there are more moves towards integrating 24p into FCP. I guess this is related to the new Cinema Tools for FCP3, and perhaps Magic Bullet from the Orphanage, although I don't know much about video.
Would the output from such a mini Dv camera be able to saturate an existing FW connection, thus requiring a faster firewire? Is it because the format is progressive rather than interlaced? Help with answers appreciated !! <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
Native 24P requires still more bandwidth than either of those cameras provide.
Do the math, and you find that a 24bit 24P 1920x1080 video stream requires 150MB per second. That means that 800Mbps firewire won't get you there (for the high-end film editing crowd). You need at least 1200Mbps. There is no such standard available, but there is a 1600Mbps standard on the firewire table. That's 200MBps, more than enough for all your native HD needs (and a little extra to boot).
The article is still basically talking about SD level resolutions (but native and with much less compression artifact ugliness) It more closely approximates the look of film, but it isn't a truly HD format.
This brings up another issue. Compressed HD (1920x1080) needs about 30MBps, which the current firewire could handle. Native HD requires 150, which even 800Mbps firewire cannot supply. That makes 800Mbps more of a side-grade as far as Digital video is concerned: you get more bandwidth, yes, but you don't get enough to do anything you really couldn't already do before the upgrade.
If you're thinking GIGAWIRE, you need to think at least 1600Mbps.
Seriously, though, I am also concerned about these former Apple-ites being the cream of the miniaturization crop from Cupertino.
What, Steve, you wouldn't pay them enough? <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
[quote]Do the math, and you find that a 24bit 24P 1920x1080 video stream requires 150MB per second. That means that 800Mbps firewire won't get you there (for the high-end film editing crowd). You need at least 1200Mbps. <hr></blockquote>
Uhm, if you take the most shitty lossless compression there is it needs to achieve a reduction by 30% to get below the 800Mbps which every cheap modem chip is able to achieve.
Originally posted by AirSluf:
<strong>QUOTE] Do the math, and you find that a 24bit 24P 1920x1080 video stream requires 150MB per second. That means that 800Mbps firewire won't get you there (for the high-end film editing crowd). You need at least 1200Mbps. There is no such standard available, but there is a 1600Mbps standard on the firewire table. That's 200MBps, more than enough for all your native HD needs (and a little extra to boot). <hr></blockquote>
It's actually a lot closer to 9 Gigabits per second. The max DVI throughput is 9.6Gbps specifically for this reason.</strong>
No, 150 MB/sec is correct.
(1920 x 1080 x 24 [fps] x 3 [bpp]) = 149299200 bytes/sec = 142 MB/sec
I'd imagine the reason that DVI throughput is so much higher is that computer monitors are drawn a lot more than 24 times per second. For example, if the screen was refreshed at a rate of 75 Hz, that would require at least 3.6 Gbps of bandwidth.
A real time HD editor will require 150MBps, any cameras or firewire disc arrays for that task will need to be 1600Mbps firewire as a result.
[ 04-17-2002: Message edited by: Bodhi ]</p>
I don't really care about the Panasonic thing, and I see no connection between it and a possibility of GigaWire-- or at least no more connection than there has already "been" for months around these fora.
The Oqo is an interesting idea. It won't go anywhere, but it may well inspire Appleites to dream of bigger things.
The significance of the Panasonic announcement is that it means Panasonic are willing to open up to Apple the DV50 and HD100 codecs to allow transfer of the compressed stream directly into Macs over Firewire (the present 400Mbs is perfectly adequate).
Panasonic are betting on Apple's future as video leaders and are giving a people a reason not to choose Sony. Discreet have been negotiating for a while to license Sony's HDCAM codec for similar reasons but I am not aware of any conclusion as yet.
Perhaps this is the apple pda everyone talked about, but apple decided it didn't fit and now it's being produced outside.
[ 04-17-2002: Message edited by: giant ]</p>
<strong>Did anyone notice how many apple designers behind that oqo computer,including some powerbook designers? Apple must have known. Could it be that they specifically passed on having it under the Apple umbrella?
Perhaps this is the apple pda everyone talked about, but apple decided it didn't fit and now it's being produced outside.
[ 04-17-2002: Message edited by: giant ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
And, interestingly enough, the Crusoe chip used in the OQO (based on Transmeta's specs) uses MORE power than the PPC 750fx at the same MHz. Just food for thought.
However, I have a little time to write more about what I was saying.
First. To vinney57, you nailed it !
( Is this correct expression in English ?
The key point is that it is DV based codec compressed.
Here is chart for your understanding.
<a href="http://videoexpert.home.att.net/artic3/262ctab.htm"; target="_blank">http://videoexpert.home.att.net/artic3/262ctab.htm</a>;
In here, you can see DVCPRO HD is 1:6.67 compressed.
As Matsu and King Chung Huang said before, Uncompressed 1080/60i need 150 MB/Sec and need a storage of about 500 GB/hr. Which is TOO Expensive !
But when you apply the compression, 150MB/sec became 25MB/sec or less, 80GB/hr!
And the 480/60P DVCPRO50 has compression rate of 1:3.3 and it will be no problem for the Firewire.
And if APPLE follow Panasonic trend of using 720/60P or even 720/24P, the requirment will be much less than what it is.
The main problem is that current Firewire can not handle this speed !
The next Gen Firewire, which is Gigawire, has different connector.
<a href="http://www.zayante.com/p1394b/"; target="_blank">http://www.zayante.com/p1394b/</a>;
( Look at this very carefully. Who's site it is !)
P.S.: See the page 56 to 72 of PDF "p1394b1-33.pdf"
But Don't worry! Be happy! It can connect current firewire device with conversion cable and it will be compatible with current DV Camcoders too.
However, it can use 1.6Gbps/sec speed upto 100m!
And better part is that it only use general CAT-5 Cable ! Which you use with every 100Mb Ethernet-cable ! It is cheap and it is proven too! :eek:
And using with Plastic fiber-optic or Glass fiber-optic, it can reach 1.6Gbps/sec and up to 3.2 Gbps/sec over 100~500m,( With repeater, 5KM ).
So you will ask me proof. In this NAB, Panasonic has DVCPRO HD B/D for Firewire and it had THE NEW Connector in it!
( If I can find the picture, I will post it. )
The people who will implement this is already in APPLE !
<a href="http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2002/apr/04zayante.html"; target="_blank">http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2002/apr/04zayante.html</a>;
( YES. The same people who made 1394b standard ! )
Sorry - It is not standard yet until IEEE approve it.
So, the foundation of doing HDTV Editing will be here soon.
The problem for this is Gigawire is only one part of equation.
The other parts are DVCPRO50, DVCPRO HD Codec by software or Hardware-aided in QuickTime.
If it is Software, it need powerful CPU for doing this. Guess , who will make Quad G5 in future ! <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
Or if it need Hardware-aid, think Domino ! <img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[Surprised]" />
And also We will see the benefit of Raycer technology soon !
I think that is enough for today.
For the time, look at the what SONY is doing and think what APPLE can do in future.
<a href="http://www.sony.jp/products/Consumer/PCOM/PCG-C1MSX/"; target="_blank">http://www.sony.jp/products/Consumer/PCOM/PCG-C1MSX/</a>;
<a href="http://www.sony.jp/products/Consumer/PCOM/PCG-U1/"; target="_blank">http://www.sony.jp/products/Consumer/PCOM/PCG-U1/</a>;
[ 04-18-2002: Message edited by: kormac77 ]</p>