Masimo open to an Apple Watch settlement, if Apple would only call

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 46
    tht said:
    tht said:
    macbootx said:
    Looking at the line of sensor related products they sell, Masimo certainly doesn’t appear to be a patent troll. Hopefully Apple will negotiate a fair deal. 
    They are a patent troll. It's not mutually exclusive to have products while also being a patent troll. It's the way the game is often played as this is the way the USA gov't wants it, so companies play the game. Some are aggressive, some are not. It ebbs and flows.

    The ITC "determined" that Apple violated 2 claims of 1 patent granted 2021, which was the year after Apple introduced the Apple Watch 6. Those claims should be invalidated and I definitely can see why Apple isn't going to settle, for now. But play the game they must.
    You must be OK when people squat on other people’s land.
    Obviously not ok with that. Just want people to do the right thing so that everyone benefits.

    It's not hard to say that these aren't actually patents as we envision patents to be, where an actual design or product is protected. The patents are written in vague language for the express purpose of suing other entities that have anything resembling a blood oxygen device. There isn't any actual design or product in these patents.

    The language in the claims are like a "a worn device with at least 2 LEDs". To me, that should be an automatic invalidation for being too vague as they are trying to patent an idea and not an actual product.  There's not a product there. No actual implementation of a blood oxygen measurement device. If it was, they would say precisely how many lights, what wavelengths, what power levels, what materials, and what calibrations they need to make it work.

    These patents hold no engineering value, and if a company wanted to make a blood oxygen sensing device, they would have to develop the product from scratch. How could something be stolen, if so?
    If Apple thought the patents were worthless they would have tried to have them formally invalidated by the ITC - unless perhaps they thought it unlikely that they'd need to? Regardless, with the court case dragging on this long and the patents not invalidated and now the ITC investigation finding the claims to be violated... Apple's on the losing end of this one.
    Alex1N
  • Reply 42 of 46

    Or maybe Apple should just buy Masimo.  Masimo owns multiple names in audio like Marantz, Denon and Bowers Wilkins.  Apple would acquire not only some great medical products but some audio also.   
    I wonder if Apple is thinking about potential conflicts in the audio space. They can always just buy Masimo and divest the parts of it they don't want, but that's not really the Apple Way (i.e. isolate just the things you need and only get those).
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 43 of 46

    On the topic of the supposed attempt by Apple to thwart the ban with a software update, Kiani doubted it would work. "It shouldn't, because our patents are not about the software. They are about the hardware with the software."

    Nonsense. If the functionality is not available it doesn't matter how that was achieved.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 44 of 46
    thttht Posts: 5,434member
    tht said:
    tht said:
    macbootx said:
    Looking at the line of sensor related products they sell, Masimo certainly doesn’t appear to be a patent troll. Hopefully Apple will negotiate a fair deal. 
    They are a patent troll. It's not mutually exclusive to have products while also being a patent troll. It's the way the game is often played as this is the way the USA gov't wants it, so companies play the game. Some are aggressive, some are not. It ebbs and flows.

    The ITC "determined" that Apple violated 2 claims of 1 patent granted 2021, which was the year after Apple introduced the Apple Watch 6. Those claims should be invalidated and I definitely can see why Apple isn't going to settle, for now. But play the game they must.
    You must be OK when people squat on other people’s land.
    Obviously not ok with that. Just want people to do the right thing so that everyone benefits.

    It's not hard to say that these aren't actually patents as we envision patents to be, where an actual design or product is protected. The patents are written in vague language for the express purpose of suing other entities that have anything resembling a blood oxygen device. There isn't any actual design or product in these patents.

    The language in the claims are like a "a worn device with at least 2 LEDs". To me, that should be an automatic invalidation for being too vague as they are trying to patent an idea and not an actual product.  There's not a product there. No actual implementation of a blood oxygen measurement device. If it was, they would say precisely how many lights, what wavelengths, what power levels, what materials, and what calibrations they need to make it work.

    These patents hold no engineering value, and if a company wanted to make a blood oxygen sensing device, they would have to develop the product from scratch. How could something be stolen, if so?
    If Apple thought the patents were worthless they would have tried to have them formally invalidated by the ITC - unless perhaps they thought it unlikely that they'd need to? Regardless, with the court case dragging on this long and the patents not invalidated and now the ITC investigation finding the claims to be violated... Apple's on the losing end of this one.
    The ITC doesn't invalidate patents. They just interpret, as I recall.

    There is a separate patent court case between them where Apple is trying invalidate the patents in those suits. Masimo went the ITC route to put additional pressure on Apple to try get them to deal, instead of waiting on the original patent suit to play out. I do not know if they are the same patents. Apple has countersued after Masimo shipped a wrist watch. The Masimo case in CA and the Apple countersuit in Delaware have been paused pending the ITC case. Maybe because those courts are just waiting on whether Apple and Masimo would settle.

    The ITC is ultimately a political move if they don't have any authority to invalidate patents. Especially with Masimo vs Apple as they didn't have products that competed against each other at the time of the suit, and you could continue to argue that Apple and Masimo don't have competing products even with Masimo's watch on the market. There just won't be enough cross shoppers to merit action. In other words, Masimo will sell the same number of units whether the Apple Watch has blood oxygen measurements or not.

    If the patents aren't invalidated, I think Apple's only move is to turn off the blood oxygen measurement on current units or only use one LED light for blood oxygen measurements, and redesign the LED or emitters such that it doesn't violate these patent claims in new units. Like have a 4 LED sensor cluster as seen in the back cam flash light or on my Series 4 Watch. The courts will then surely have to figure out what it means to have one, two or more LEDs, but if it a cluster of LEDs that share the same housing and cover, I think it is enough.

    jasenj1Alex1Nwatto_cobra
  • Reply 45 of 46
    Imagination, Dialogic, and so many others and now Masimo. Same pattern. First feed, then steal and finally kill
  • Reply 46 of 46
    Apple needs to pay up.  Apple Watch is a premium product and deserves the best technology for O2  measurement.  Only Masimo makes that.  Any software redesign Apple comes up with will not measure O2 accurately with people of color.   Thats unacceptable.  Give Masimo the few cents per unit they deserve Apple.
    Why? We do not negotiate with terrorists or extortionists. 
    tht
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