'Strong action' is coming if the EU doesn't like Apple's App Store concessions

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 54
    rax_mark said:
    red oak said:
    rax_mark said:
    red oak said:

    Spoken like a true socialist

    I believe in a healthy mixture of Capitalism and Socialism. Following only one to the letter is stupid and is detached from reality.

    red oak said:

    Apple opened up the browser, NFC, and allows game streaming apps.  And, allows distributions of apps outside of the App Store

    All of which they were compelled to do due to regulation, not out of a spirit for fair competition. The new app store policies that allow distribution of apps outside the iOS app store were made in such a way to make the process almost impossible to do monetarily while still being a gatekeeper to that process.

    red oak said:

    do you think Apple should get zero compensation for that?

    Isn't over 50% margin on the sale of iPhones compensation? Apple makes so much money on iphones alone that those profits should be able to fund all of their other hardware projects and software departments and even R&D. Airpods, Macs and watches don't hold a candle to the profit they make on iPhones. They could give free Airpods with iPhones and still make profit (this data is publicly available).

    Yet, Apple double dips (yearly developer program charges), triple dips (monthly 30% cut from developers), and is now planning to quad dip (core technology charges). At one point, intervention was inevitable, I only thought it would be developers protesting instead of government regulation. However, even with regulation they will make record profits on hardware sales. I don't think they are in a position to sympathize with.
    Did you join an hour ago here so you can argue for Spotify?  

    Apple did everything the DMA required.  Every single thing.  Let it go back to the courts, then to appeal, and then finally to the Court of Justice.    Maybe we'll have some clarification in 2027.  Until then,  Apple's business terms apply 


    Yes, I did create this account today as I don't have access to my previous one.

    However, that should be inconsequential to the statements I made and their validity.

    We will know whether the new policies follow the DMA in March.
    Wow. So he was right. LOL

    the reason he called you out was that lots and lots of folks have done the same thing you did just to bag on. Apple here. Looks like  you and your "points" are no different. If you. stick around and have healthy contributions, you will have earned tryst and be viewed differently. But this really just seems like a throwaway account to bag on Apple and defend socialistic totalitarian regulation. 

    No, it's not a throwaway account of any sort. I also don't wish to bag on Apple, I use iPads and Macs (though not iPhones). I just stated my opinion, though I think, the points I made have already been stated many times before and may seem repetitive.

    Regardless, I care more about using my devices to their full extent and don't care how that happens, whether through Apple's own will or that of regulatory bodies. Also, my nephew who was given a cheap Android phone (the kid's 15 he doesn't need flagship devices) was recently ridiculed by some of his classmates because of that, maybe I am a bit cross for that reason, this blue-green bubble thing that's been going on.
  • Reply 42 of 54
    Apple did as asked. Done. 

    They don’t have to give everything away. That’s counter to business, period. 

    It’s not the EUs job to micromanage an American private sector company. 

    They’d better be careful. Apple may decide to make a stronger reaction. Then life in Europe would suck pretty badly.  
    I’m waiting for the US to retaliate. The DMA is so obviously biased against US companies (while leaving multi-billion dollar EU companies exempt).

    I suggest going after German automakers. I used to work for BMW and they “serialize” components to vehicles in exactly the same manner Apple does with secure components. You can’t take parts from
    used/wrecked BMWs and use them to repair other vehicles. New components have to be bought & installed through BMW dealers only.

    Right to Repair is different than the DMA, but it’s still something the EU is also going to force companies like Apple to support. If Apple has to abide by Right to Repair then BMW, Mercedes and Audi damn well also have to abide. Especially considering the substantially higher cost to repair a vehicle vs a phone or laptop.
    dewmewatto_cobra
  • Reply 43 of 54
    rax_mark said:
    The EU, unlike the US, believes in the spirit of the law, instead of the word of the law, Apple should have realised that.

    Apple cannot win this one by using legal loopholes. I suspect if this continues we may see one of two possibilities:-

    I) Apple exits the EU.
    II) The EU bans Apple within its borders.

    I suspect Apple doesn't want to give up the European market to Samsung and Google, so the first one is highly dependent on whether Apple can still get a profit with side loading existing.

    Also, it is possible that other countries implement a DMA equivalent law (Japan is already in the process of doing so) so exiting markets will be shooting themselves in the foot.

    One thing is sure, the next decade will be different for Apple than the previous one.
    Spirit of the law in the US? So tell me what the spirit of the book ban laws was?
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 44 of 54
    chasm said:
    Dear everyone in this discussion:

    There is unlikely to be even a single thing you have ever bought in your home that didn’t have AT LEAST a 30 percent markup, and many many things you routinely buy (clothes/food/gas) have much higher markups.

    Back when software came in a box, it was at minimum a 50 percent markup and generally much higher. Apple revolutionized the market by LOWERING market to a max of 30 percent.

    How quickly people forget.
    Yes — most people are ignorant of this.  Boxed software had at least a distributor and retailer both with their own markup.  The developer probably ended up with <30% then, and now they end up with 70+%.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 45 of 54
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,667member
    chasm said:
    Dear everyone in this discussion:

    There is unlikely to be even a single thing you have ever bought in your home that didn’t have AT LEAST a 30 percent markup, and many many things you routinely buy (clothes/food/gas) have much higher markups.

    Back when software came in a box, it was at minimum a 50 percent markup and generally much higher. Apple revolutionized the market by LOWERING market to a max of 30 percent.

    How quickly people forget.
    Yes — most people are ignorant of this.  Boxed software had at least a distributor and retailer both with their own markup.  The developer probably ended up with <30% then, and now they end up with 70+%.
    The amount of markup isn't relevant to what the EU is trying to deal with. 

    Also, the retail distribution system has changed. Going digital has changed everything. It's a new world in that sense. 

    Boxed, disk (or disc) based software is no longer the norm.
  • Reply 46 of 54
    adonissmuadonissmu Posts: 1,776member
    Im definitely in the camp that thinks the EU regulations are ridiculous. If everyone was allowed to just do third party app stores willy nilly then large players would sidestep the fees used to support everyone using the platform.

    Additionally they could side step the securty and Apples Hardware would be at the mercy of third parties which is exactly the situation they are trying to avoid. 

    The more successful apps are benefitting the most. Why shouldnt they pay the Core Technology Fee when they want to operate outside the platform but then still use the platform? 

    There is nothing to stop people from installing what they can on their device. If they want apps outside the App Store installed its legal to do. You just have to know how to do it. Its not Apples job to create easier ways for people to install software from outside the App Store. EU people are lazy and dont want to use the methods that already exist for sideloading apps on iOS.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 47 of 54
    dewmedewme Posts: 5,362member
    It really is this simple: Choice.

    1) No consumer anywhere is ever forced to buy a single Apple product. Never.
    2) No software or accessories developer is ever forced to build products for Apple’s products or ecosystem. Never.
    3) Consumers and developers have multiple choices for where they want to spend their money and invest their resources.

    danoxwatto_cobra
  • Reply 48 of 54
    davidwdavidw Posts: 2,049member
    Apple did as asked. Done. 

    They don’t have to give everything away. That’s counter to business, period. 

    It’s not the EUs job to micromanage an American private sector company. 

    They’d better be careful. Apple may decide to make a stronger reaction. Then life in Europe would suck pretty badly.  
    I’m waiting for the US to retaliate. The DMA is so obviously biased against US companies (while leaving multi-billion dollar EU companies exempt).

    I suggest going after German automakers. I used to work for BMW and they “serialize” components to vehicles in exactly the same manner Apple does with secure components. You can’t take parts from
    used/wrecked BMWs and use them to repair other vehicles. New components have to be bought & installed through BMW dealers only.

    Right to Repair is different than the DMA, but it’s still something the EU is also going to force companies like Apple to support. If Apple has to abide by Right to Repair then BMW, Mercedes and Audi damn well also have to abide. Especially considering the substantially higher cost to repair a vehicle vs a phone or laptop.
    And that is not a matter of your opinion or some conspiracy theory.


    I once had a link to an article that questioned how the EU commission arrived at the numbers used to determine who were "gatekeepers" and the numbers used to determine which "core platform" falls under the DMA. And they came to the conclusion that the numbers were determined after they decided who they wanted to be "gatekeepers" (under the DMA) and whose platform they wanted to target. It is not a coincidence that the top 5 US tech can not escape being labeled a "gatekeeper" under the DMA. The article could not find any research done by the EU, that shows that the numbers they came up in the DMA (specially the market cap numbers) crosses a threshold as to be proven to be anti-competitive. The numbers were set to ensure that no EU companies falls under the DMA. 
     

    edited January 30 danoxwatto_cobra
  • Reply 49 of 54
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,667member
    dewme said:
    It really is this simple: Choice.

    1) No consumer anywhere is ever forced to buy a single Apple product. Never.
    2) No software or accessories developer is ever forced to build products for Apple’s products or ecosystem. Never.
    3) Consumers and developers have multiple choices for where they want to spend their money and invest their resources.

    If only it were that simple. 

    The opposite can be argued. There is a lack of choice on Apple mobile and many are unaware that choice is limited by the company.

    If we want to make it simple we should allow users an informed choice. 

    In most of the recent consumer oriented sentences at the highest EU level, information (in clear and simple terms) has been a key factor. Consumers should be informed. The banks were hauled over the coals and forced to return billions to customers even when the relevant information was actually sitting there in the contract they signed. That was deemed insufficient for a technical document  aimed at laypeople without a deep knowledge of financial contracts. 

    Apple makes zero effort to inform customers of the serious limitations it knowingly imposes on purchasers of its mobile devices.

    If they did, it is highly possible that the EU would not have a case to chase. It's also highly possible that EU users would actually think twice about a purchase. 

    If course, Apple is well aware of this.

    Slipping things into EULAs would probably fail as informing customers especially as most of them are sprung on customers when they least expect it and/or are in the middle of a task.

    This is another area where things need to be sorted out. If upgrading anything will require acceptance of new terms and conditions it is reasonable to think a notification of such (with the option of reading those terms) should be presented even before the download begins. 

    Companies are abusing EULA acceptance practices. Not only Apple, basically all of them. 
    Respitemuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 50 of 54
    danoxdanox Posts: 2,849member
    avon b7 said:
    Spotify CEO Daniel Ek called the fees "extortion, plain and simple," while Epic Games CEO Tim Sweeney referred to it as "hot garbage" and a "devious new instance of malicious compliance."

    So EU regulators will assess plans with feedback from third parties, like this one?  And they suggest that Apple test their proposal with these third parties?  And the deadline is a month away?  What delusional universe are these politicians living in?  

    Third parties would like to pay ZERO — how will getting feedback from third parties help in any way?  If the issue is the core technology fee, the alternative is to bill for each API use.  This would just add more complexity and cost. I don’t think EU regulators can legally tell companies what they can charge, unless their goal is to become China or Russia.
    Third parties will use different language to convey their grievances with Apple's proposal but the message will be the same. 

    It won't be just the opinions of two CEOs either. Everyone will have a right to chime in (consumers included). 

    Apple isn't alone in having to implement changes. 

    On another note, OpenAI is also under the obligation to clarify its compliance will EU law. In this case the GDPR and it isn't looking good for them. Italy started the procedure. 

    OpenAI has no hardware in the game, they can and will go on irregardless of the EU. The genie is out of the bottle....
  • Reply 51 of 54
    danoxdanox Posts: 2,849member
    and for future prosperity. let's revisit this comment -- I can't wait for the side loaders to get hit with a virus and call apple support and cry about it. or visit an apple store and get butt hurt when the apple technician tells them the problem didn't come from apple. 

    also, how many low IQ people will not read the 'scare sheet' and enter an outside marketplace and download a virus. I can't wait! LOL
    That's how the Microsoft/Android world works blame the vendor or Geek Squad.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 52 of 54
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,667member
    danox said:
    avon b7 said:
    Spotify CEO Daniel Ek called the fees "extortion, plain and simple," while Epic Games CEO Tim Sweeney referred to it as "hot garbage" and a "devious new instance of malicious compliance."

    So EU regulators will assess plans with feedback from third parties, like this one?  And they suggest that Apple test their proposal with these third parties?  And the deadline is a month away?  What delusional universe are these politicians living in?  

    Third parties would like to pay ZERO — how will getting feedback from third parties help in any way?  If the issue is the core technology fee, the alternative is to bill for each API use.  This would just add more complexity and cost. I don’t think EU regulators can legally tell companies what they can charge, unless their goal is to become China or Russia.
    Third parties will use different language to convey their grievances with Apple's proposal but the message will be the same. 

    It won't be just the opinions of two CEOs either. Everyone will have a right to chime in (consumers included). 

    Apple isn't alone in having to implement changes. 

    On another note, OpenAI is also under the obligation to clarify its compliance will EU law. In this case the GDPR and it isn't looking good for them. Italy started the procedure. 

    OpenAI has no hardware in the game, they can and will go on irregardless of the EU. The genie is out of the bottle....
    There are rumours of OpenAI wanting to get into hardware. 

    The problem that OpenAI has in the EU is related to data protection and it could be a serious problem if they don't answer all the questions asked convincingly. 
    gatorguy
  • Reply 53 of 54
    sirdirsirdir Posts: 187member
    davidw said:
    sirdir said:
    red oak said:
    rax_mark said:
    The EU, unlike the US, believes in the spirit of the law, instead of the word of the law, Apple should have realised that.

    Apple cannot win this one by using legal loopholes. I suspect if this continues we may see one of two possibilities:-

    I) Apple exits the EU.
    II) The EU bans Apple within its borders.

    I suspect Apple doesn't want to give up the European market to Samsung and Google, so the first one is highly dependent on whether Apple can still get a profit with side loading existing.

    Also, it is possible that other countries implement a DMA equivalent law (Japan is already in the process of doing so) so exiting markets will be shooting themselves in the foot.

    One thing is sure, the next decade will be different for Apple than the previous one.

    Spoken like a true socialist

    Apple opened up the browser, NFC, and allows game streaming apps.  And, allows distributions of apps outside of the App Store - do you think Apple should get zero compensation for that? 

    Laws are written.  Apple followed every letter of the law 


    They should get as much say in what is installed and paid as much as Microsoft gets paid when I install a Program outside the store on my PC or as much as Apple gets paid when I install a mac App outside the App Store. Free our devices from the tyranny of Apple (only mildly exaggerating)

    Aren't you being the tyrant (not exaggerating at all)  by demanding others do with their IP, as you want them to do? Who are you to demand that Apple should not be paid by others, for the commercial use of their IP, because that's the way you want it to be? 

    The reason why Microsoft is not being paid (by you) every time you install software on to a PC with Windows is because that's the way Microsoft wants it. Not because it's the way you want it to be. Microsoft already made their money by selling licenses to use Windows on a PC. Either you paid for that license by buying a retail version of Windows or by buying a PC with Windows already installed, (where the PC vendors paid for the Windows license.) And even if you pirated a copy of Windows for a home built PC, the software developers are paying Microsoft for a license to develop for Windows. So Microsoft is being "paid", even if you don't know it. That's Microsoft business model with Windows. Microsoft do not make money from the sale of the hardware. But they want Windows on as many computers as possible.

    Apple Mac operates nearly under the same business model. It has to to compete with PC's. Though Apple no longer charge for MacOS (OSX) because they make money selling the Mac hardware. A MacOS (OSX) only comes with Mac. and whether you're the original purchaser or not, it's owning a Mac that gets you the license for MacOS (OSX). This because of the way Apple has it, not because it's the way you want it.

    Google Android business model  is like that for a computer because that's how Google wants it. With Android, you might not think you're "paying" to sideload on you your device but Google is getting "paid". Google is after your (and every ones) personal data and using Android makes it much easier for them to mine it. The more mobile users on Android, the more Google is getting "paid", whether you know it or not.

    It's up to Apple to choose the business model they want for iOS, on their mobile devices, not you. Apple do not make money selling iOS to third party mobile device makers or to any Apple device owners. Nor is it Apple business model to mine customers personal data to profit from targeted advertising. Apple make their money by selling devices with iOS installed. Apple is not using iOS to compete in the OS market. They are using iOS to compete in the mobile device market. So Apple business model to use iOS to  attract consumers to purchase Apple devices. Apple do not consider their mobile devices as "PC's", no more than Microsoft consider their game console as a "PC". Microsoft has control of all the software that can be installed on to an Xbox and you are not in any position to say what Microsoft gets paid for software installed on to an Xbpx.

    So who are you to demand that Apple has to treat their iOS, that same way they treat their MacOS or the same way Microsoft treat Windows or the same way Google treat Android? The EU? 

     BTW- speaking of the EU and tyrants, it wasn't that long ago that many EU countries were  still ruled by tyrants. This before the EU of course. Or before they joined the EU. 

    Maybe its still in many EU countries DNA.  :)
    I know, me wanting to install the software I want on the device I bought at a very high price, that’s the definition of tyranny.
    rax_markRespite
  • Reply 54 of 54
    davidwdavidw Posts: 2,049member
    sirdir said:
    davidw said:
    sirdir said:
    red oak said:
    rax_mark said:
    The EU, unlike the US, believes in the spirit of the law, instead of the word of the law, Apple should have realised that.

    Apple cannot win this one by using legal loopholes. I suspect if this continues we may see one of two possibilities:-

    I) Apple exits the EU.
    II) The EU bans Apple within its borders.

    I suspect Apple doesn't want to give up the European market to Samsung and Google, so the first one is highly dependent on whether Apple can still get a profit with side loading existing.

    Also, it is possible that other countries implement a DMA equivalent law (Japan is already in the process of doing so) so exiting markets will be shooting themselves in the foot.

    One thing is sure, the next decade will be different for Apple than the previous one.

    Spoken like a true socialist

    Apple opened up the browser, NFC, and allows game streaming apps.  And, allows distributions of apps outside of the App Store - do you think Apple should get zero compensation for that? 

    Laws are written.  Apple followed every letter of the law 


    They should get as much say in what is installed and paid as much as Microsoft gets paid when I install a Program outside the store on my PC or as much as Apple gets paid when I install a mac App outside the App Store. Free our devices from the tyranny of Apple (only mildly exaggerating)

    Aren't you being the tyrant (not exaggerating at all)  by demanding others do with their IP, as you want them to do? Who are you to demand that Apple should not be paid by others, for the commercial use of their IP, because that's the way you want it to be? 

    The reason why Microsoft is not being paid (by you) every time you install software on to a PC with Windows is because that's the way Microsoft wants it. Not because it's the way you want it to be. Microsoft already made their money by selling licenses to use Windows on a PC. Either you paid for that license by buying a retail version of Windows or by buying a PC with Windows already installed, (where the PC vendors paid for the Windows license.) And even if you pirated a copy of Windows for a home built PC, the software developers are paying Microsoft for a license to develop for Windows. So Microsoft is being "paid", even if you don't know it. That's Microsoft business model with Windows. Microsoft do not make money from the sale of the hardware. But they want Windows on as many computers as possible.

    Apple Mac operates nearly under the same business model. It has to to compete with PC's. Though Apple no longer charge for MacOS (OSX) because they make money selling the Mac hardware. A MacOS (OSX) only comes with Mac. and whether you're the original purchaser or not, it's owning a Mac that gets you the license for MacOS (OSX). This because of the way Apple has it, not because it's the way you want it.

    Google Android business model  is like that for a computer because that's how Google wants it. With Android, you might not think you're "paying" to sideload on you your device but Google is getting "paid". Google is after your (and every ones) personal data and using Android makes it much easier for them to mine it. The more mobile users on Android, the more Google is getting "paid", whether you know it or not.

    It's up to Apple to choose the business model they want for iOS, on their mobile devices, not you. Apple do not make money selling iOS to third party mobile device makers or to any Apple device owners. Nor is it Apple business model to mine customers personal data to profit from targeted advertising. Apple make their money by selling devices with iOS installed. Apple is not using iOS to compete in the OS market. They are using iOS to compete in the mobile device market. So Apple business model to use iOS to  attract consumers to purchase Apple devices. Apple do not consider their mobile devices as "PC's", no more than Microsoft consider their game console as a "PC". Microsoft has control of all the software that can be installed on to an Xbox and you are not in any position to say what Microsoft gets paid for software installed on to an Xbpx.

    So who are you to demand that Apple has to treat their iOS, that same way they treat their MacOS or the same way Microsoft treat Windows or the same way Google treat Android? The EU? 

     BTW- speaking of the EU and tyrants, it wasn't that long ago that many EU countries were  still ruled by tyrants. This before the EU of course. Or before they joined the EU. 

    Maybe its still in many EU countries DNA.  :)
    I know, me wanting to install the software I want on the device I bought at a very high price, that’s the definition of tyranny.

    Who forced you buy the product at all? If you think you paid too much for a product that didn't do what you want it to do, that's the definition of stupidity.
    watto_cobra
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