"And, those same advisors came up with the faulty formula that the president applied, that has nothing to do with tariffs applied by countries importing US goods.
According to CNN, the 54% tariff that China has responded to, was made by dividing a given country's trade deficit by its exports to the US. Then the resulting figure was divided in half."
This should not go by without being noticed. The Trump administration claims the tariffs are "reciprocal," but since reciprocal tariffs would require complex, nuanced and detailed calculations, they instead chose a simple, unrelated formula they pulled out of their proverbial a$$ so they could quickly make up some numbers to use for their tariffs. It's important to understand that these are not brilliant stratagists playing three-dimensional chess to steer the ship of state, but morons falling all over themselves to implement whatever the Big Guy wants. "Signal gate" from last week further demonstrated this. These are all the proverbial D-students who put more effort into figuring out how to cheat on tests in high school than they ever did in trying to actually pass them. I mean, think about it. If they hadn't cheated, they wouldn't have even been D-students.
So Apple's stock price, your 401(k), and the price of just about everything are all being screwed up because the Big Guy wants to create chaos with tariffs, and the people he hired can't be bothered to find someone who can figure the math to actually do the thing that they claim they're doing. They are (to use another high-school metaphor because it seems so on-the-nose) "fixing" international trade by setting off cherry bombs in the boys' bathroom toilets.
So it’s ok that the US pays high tariffs for imports but when trying to even the playing field, it’s not alright for the US to raise our tariffs? Yet, it’s ok when the left raises tariffs but when the right does it, it’s not ok?
China and other countries will get tired of paying our tariffs at some point and will negotiate with Trump.
Get back to us when you understand what a tariff is. I’ll help you. A tariff is a tax levied on goods as they enter the country. China does not ‘pay our tariff’ any more than Mexico paid to “build the wall.” When the US government levies a 56% tariff on goods coming from China, the importer pays that tax, and the additional cost is passed on to the consumer.
lwr32 said: And how often was Obama on the golf course?
Obama played golf 333 times during his 8 years, which is more than Trump. Trump's golf tally is harder to count, because one of his homes is on a golf course, and he's not always playing golf when he's at that home.
That’s 333 ROUNDS of golf.
Tr*mp spent 293 days playing golf during his first term — in half the time.
You do the math (or, more likely, ignore it).
The end of this particular whataboutism diversion from the topic on hand is to remember that when Trump plays golf or just stays at one of his “clubs,” he collects rent money from the taxpayer so that the Secret Service can be onsite to protect him. So right after Trump sent markets into a tailspin by announcing the largest peacetime tax increase in US history, he went to play golf so he could pocket some of that taxpayer funded rent right away.
Watching the absolute meltdown people are having is really something. Those who didn’t support Trump to begin with are the loudest. But the center right is up there as well.
I would just say this. I wouldn’t bet against Trump. I don’t know whether or not this tariff strategy will work, but I’d give it better than 50-50 odds. He’s trying to reset the playing field and get countries to renegotiate. If you will look at what he’s doing compared to his past behavior, it’s exactly what he always does. He takes a maximalist position, then is happy when he gets some of what he wants. There was no way to do this on trade without short-term pain. We’re certainly seeing that now.
There is a bigger picture here. It involves lower energy prices, reduced fraud and waste, and lower interest rates. One of the ways of achieving that is to force money into US treasuries, which is exactly what is happening right now. One problem Trump faced upon ansduming office is the stock market was overvalued from a P/E perspective. It was due for a correction. I have to wonder if they just decided to take the bath now.
So we’ll see what happens, as the orange man likes to say. Contrary to popular belief, he doesn’t have a bunch of idiots around him and isn’t just doing these things willy-nilly. Hopefully, they work.
You can tell it's a cult because they just make things up to rationalize what is happening. This is just incredibly detached from reality, Trump has said the tariffs are here to stay and aren't part of a negotiating strategy but here we have a cult member insisting that is what they are. But yeah... I guess making things up is just to reassure us how well things are planned? What a bunch of clowns.
You can tell it's TDS, because they just have to engage in ad hominem attacks for no apparent reason.
"Trump has said the tariffs are here to stay and aren't part of a negotiating strategy."
I haven't heard him say that, but I don't follow every word, so let's assume it's accurate. So? The last thing he is going to do is admit it's all a tactic. Not only does it make sense that he would say this, but he's done exactly this kind of thing his entire career. It's not about liking the tactic or disliking it....thinking it's right or wrong. It's about understanding how the man operates. Do you really disagree with this?
As for plans, let me get this straight: You honestly think Trump and his economic team are just pulling this out of their butts? Have you listened to people like Scott Bessant and Howard Lutnick? Do you know the qualifications these men have? Now, if you think the plan will fail, or it's not worth the short-term pain, or any other objection...fine. But to claim there is no plan? That's an unserious as you claim the Trump admin is.
I don’t know whether or not this tariff strategy will work, but I’d give it better than 50-50 odds.
Why? Why would you do that? His first term he tried the same thing albeit on a smaller scale and the US lost, badly. He started a trade war with China and China won, big time, they came out vastly stronger on the world stage than at the start. Now he’s doubling down on trying to tariff his way to prosperity. What’s that old line about insanity being trying the same failed strategy over and over and expecting the same result.
What on earth would make you think someone who has gone bankrupt as many times as Trump would have a clue about international trade? Why would you trust the judgement of someone with no macroeconomic training or experience, who when given a chance the first time failed by any and every measure. Why would you believe in him to do better this time with the same failed policies he failed with the first time?
We’ve seen this movie before.
Because your comment about China is completely inaccurate. That's why. As is your comment about him "failing by every measure." That's just bizarro-world Trump Derangement coming through. His first term saw massive increases in real income, low inflation, low unemployment, and a dozen other positive economic indicators. That is, before Covid. You know, Covid.... when you and yours demanded we shut the country down through the election? When Trump was called a murderer for wanting to get back to life? Even with the economic carnage that the Left demanded, the economy was well into a robust recovery by the end of 2020.
As for Trump "going bankrupt," that is misleading, and I think you know it. He never declared personal bankruptcy. He did use Chapter 11 bankruptcy with business numerous times. If it makes you feel good to say "he went bankrupt," go ahead. It has nothing to do with his business acumen. If anything, going Chapter 11 six times and still coming out on top is impressive.
9secondkox2 said: It’s only logical right? Heck, back in 1995, nancy pelosi of all people was saying the exact same stuff trump is saying about the need for tariffs since we are being tariffed to death by everyone else.
A. Pelosi's comments were entirely specific to China alone. That isn't "the exact same stuff". B. Trump already tried agricultural tariffs with China in his 1st administration. Result = $28 billion in taxpayer funded bailouts to farmers. C. Trump backed out of the TPP with China in his 1st administration and negotiated a new trade agreement that he claimed was better. D. Trump back out of NAFTA with Canada/Mexico in his 1st administration and negotiated a new trade agreement that he claimed was better. E. Trump claimed that trade agreements he made with China/Mexico/Canada in his 1st term constituted an economic emergency in his 2nd term. F. The grade that Trump gets for his knowledge of trade/tariffs.
Actually it is. Trump even called out the 1 trillion deficit to China today. With other countries it’s in the billions. With China it’s a trillion. Make no mistake, China is the big target in this.
Exactly as it was then. The other countries were an issue too. But China was the big problem to focus on.
What is the ratio of anti- to pro- Trump on this website? About 10-1?
I think it’s more than that. Staff plus majority of the posting membership.
Almost all of the serious tech sites (not actively sponsored by someone with an agenda) around the Internet are easily anti Orange Buffoonery, which is not a surprise, most people in science, medicine, programming, mathematics, finance need to think more clearly and plan long-term in order to make it in school or their careers it’s one of the reasons that Mitt Romney (former Bain CEO) can’t stand Trump and the ratio probably is 2/3 not 10 to 1. The cloudy thinking red areas are reversed the other way 60-40 taking Oklahoma or Tennessee (voting results) as an example.
Actually it’s mostly the sites that are part of a conglomerate. others owned by Future, Foundry/IDG, etc. which publish a myriad of tech/sciene, lifestyle blogs:sites/magazines, etc. which all push unified narratives for the most part, making it easy to mistake as a grassroots kind of sentiment. The many tech blogs owned by AOL, etc. are astounding in number as well. There are actually just a few common denominators tying them all together. It’s rare for a “mom and pop” type thing to survive in the face of the juggernaights. The homegrown stuff is usually scene in the podcast/YouTuber arena. Even with a successful independent site, there is leadership that encourages or discouraged certsin viewpoints. Easier when it’s a blog and not journalism.
Watching the absolute meltdown people are having is really something. Those who didn’t support Trump to begin with are the loudest. But the center right is up there as well.
I would just say this. I wouldn’t bet against Trump. I don’t know whether or not this tariff strategy will work, but I’d give it better than 50-50 odds. He’s trying to reset the playing field and get countries to renegotiate. If you will look at what he’s doing compared to his past behavior, it’s exactly what he always does. He takes a maximalist position, then is happy when he gets some of what he wants. There was no way to do this on trade without short-term pain. We’re certainly seeing that now.
There is a bigger picture here. It involves lower energy prices, reduced fraud and waste, and lower interest rates. One of the ways of achieving that is to force money into US treasuries, which is exactly what is happening right now. One problem Trump faced upon ansduming office is the stock market was overvalued from a P/E perspective. It was due for a correction. I have to wonder if they just decided to take the bath now.
So we’ll see what happens, as the orange man likes to say. Contrary to popular belief, he doesn’t have a bunch of idiots around him and isn’t just doing these things willy-nilly. Hopefully, they work.
You can tell it's a cult because they just make things up to rationalize what is happening. This is just incredibly detached from reality, Trump has said the tariffs are here to stay and aren't part of a negotiating strategy but here we have a cult member insisting that is what they are. But yeah... I guess making things up is just to reassure us how well things are planned? What a bunch of clowns.
You can tell it's TDS, because they just have to engage in ad hominem attacks for no apparent reason.
"Trump has said the tariffs are here to stay and aren't part of a negotiating strategy."
I haven't heard him say that, but I don't follow every word, so let's assume it's accurate. So? The last thing he is going to do is admit it's all a tactic. Not only does it make sense that he would say this, but he's done exactly this kind of thing his entire career. It's not about liking the tactic or disliking it....thinking it's right or wrong. It's about understanding how the man operates. Do you really disagree with this?
As for plans, let me get this straight: You honestly think Trump and his economic team are just pulling this out of their butts? Have you listened to people like Scott Bessant and Howard Lutnick? Do you know the qualifications these men have? Now, if you think the plan will fail, or it's not worth the short-term pain, or any other objection...fine. But to claim there is no plan? That's an unserious as you claim the Trump admin is.
I’ll take you at your word that you have not heard talk about his reasons for the tariffs. But that is also an admission on your part that you aren’t really informed on the subject.
Anyway, Trump and his team have given multiple conflicting answers for why they are imposing tariffs. In no particular order, they are for national security, a short-term negotiation tactic, not a short-term negotiating tactic but a rebuilding of the world order, addressing trade deficits, and intended to drive domestic manufacturing. That literally cannot give a consistent or coherent answer for their actions.
I honestly do not believe they know what they are doing. Why? Because there is no evidence to support the claim that they have a plan. They can’t articulate what the plan is. They give contradictory explanations. They say things that are demonstrably false (examples: these aren’t reciprocal tariffs. The other countries don’t pay the tariffs). Heck, you are insisting there is a plan, but you can’t articulate it. All you have managed to do is fawn over Lutnick and Bessent.
So we are back to this being a cult. Your entire response is devoid of any fact, and by your own admission, you aren’t informed on what Trump has been saying. Your argument is based on your blind faith in Trump and the people around him. You have offered nothing of substance. It’s a cult.
lwr32 said: And how often was Obama on the golf course?
Obama played golf 333 times during his 8 years, which is more than Trump. Trump's golf tally is harder to count, because one of his homes is on a golf course, and he's not always playing golf when he's at that home.
That’s 41 times, on average, per year for eight years.
Trump played golf 240 tine in his first term in office, for an average of 60 tine per year. Your response, while correct, leaves out the lengths of time in office, which is a key factor.
What is the ratio of anti- to pro- Trump on this website? About 10-1?
I think it’s more than that. Staff plus majority of the posting membership.
Almost all of the serious tech sites (not actively sponsored by someone with an agenda) around the Internet are easily anti Orange Buffoonery, which is not a surprise, most people in science, medicine, programming, mathematics, finance need to think more clearly and plan long-term in order to make it in school or their careers it’s one of the reasons that Mitt Romney (former Bain CEO) can’t stand Trump and the ratio probably is 2/3 not 10 to 1. The cloudy thinking red areas are reversed the other way 60-40 taking Oklahoma or Tennessee (voting results) as an example.
This tariff issue is prime example. Trump supporters see a potential win that they doubt understand will be short-term and corrosive to the country’s future.
A negotiation that’s fair, in which neither side is coerced or bullied into accepting an outcome is a negotiation that’s fair will result in a fair deal that stands the test of time. That is not what’s going on here. Trump is used the threat of global financial Armageddon to force wins in his column of the global trade ledger. And he might be successful in doing so.
However, he will also be quite successful in alienating all of America’s allies to the point where they will seek to cut America out and make trade deals with other nations, some who might be our prime competition for world dominance in several critical arenas; economics, military, science and political influence. What Trump supporters see is the immediate win, the gotcha. What the rest of us see are the nuances, the ramifications, the downstream effects. And those are not in our favor. The anti-vaccine crowds is about to see how the world vaccinates itself against U.S. influence and power. It will not end well for America and Americans.
I don’t know whether or not this tariff strategy will work, but I’d give it better than 50-50 odds.
Why? Why would you do that? His first term he tried the same thing albeit on a smaller scale and the US lost, badly. He started a trade war with China and China won, big time, they came out vastly stronger on the world stage than at the start. Now he’s doubling down on trying to tariff his way to prosperity. What’s that old line about insanity being trying the same failed strategy over and over and expecting the same result.
What on earth would make you think someone who has gone bankrupt as many times as Trump would have a clue about international trade? Why would you trust the judgement of someone with no macroeconomic training or experience, who when given a chance the first time failed by any and every measure. Why would you believe in him to do better this time with the same failed policies he failed with the first time?
We’ve seen this movie before.
Because your comment about China is completely inaccurate. That's why. As is your comment about him "failing by every measure." That's just bizarro-world Trump Derangement coming through. His first term saw massive increases in real income, low inflation, low unemployment, and a dozen other positive economic indicators. That is, before Covid. You know, Covid.... when you and yours demanded we shut the country down through the election? When Trump was called a murderer for wanting to get back to life? Even with the economic carnage that the Left demanded, the economy was well into a robust recovery by the end of 2020.
As for Trump "going bankrupt," that is misleading, and I think you know it. He never declared personal bankruptcy. He did use Chapter 11 bankruptcy with business numerous times. If it makes you feel good to say "he went bankrupt," go ahead. It has nothing to do with his business acumen. If anything, going Chapter 11 six times and still coming out on top is impressive.
I don’t know whether or not this tariff strategy will work, but I’d give it better than 50-50 odds.
Why? Why would you do that? His first term he tried the same thing albeit on a smaller scale and the US lost, badly. He started a trade war with China and China won, big time, they came out vastly stronger on the world stage than at the start. Now he’s doubling down on trying to tariff his way to prosperity. What’s that old line about insanity being trying the same failed strategy over and over and expecting the same result.
What on earth would make you think someone who has gone bankrupt as many times as Trump would have a clue about international trade? Why would you trust the judgement of someone with no macroeconomic training or experience, who when given a chance the first time failed by any and every measure. Why would you believe in him to do better this time with the same failed policies he failed with the first time?
We’ve seen this movie before.
Because your comment about China is completely inaccurate. That's why. As is your comment about him "failing by every measure." That's just bizarro-world Trump Derangement coming through. His first term saw massive increases in real income, low inflation, low unemployment, and a dozen other positive economic indicators. That is, before Covid. You know, Covid.... when you and yours demanded we shut the country down through the election? When Trump was called a murderer for wanting to get back to life? Even with the economic carnage that the Left demanded, the economy was well into a robust recovery by the end of 2020.
As for Trump "going bankrupt," that is misleading, and I think you know it. He never declared personal bankruptcy. He did use Chapter 11 bankruptcy with business numerous times. If it makes you feel good to say "he went bankrupt," go ahead. It has nothing to do with his business acumen. If anything, going Chapter 11 six times and still coming out on top is impressive.
Do you think FACTs matter to cult people? I don't think so. No amount of facts would convince cult members. And this is not restricted to USA alone. It is the situation all over the world.
I don’t know whether or not this tariff strategy will work, but I’d give it better than 50-50 odds.
Why? Why would you do that? His first term he tried the same thing albeit on a smaller scale and the US lost, badly. He started a trade war with China and China won, big time, they came out vastly stronger on the world stage than at the start. Now he’s doubling down on trying to tariff his way to prosperity. What’s that old line about insanity being trying the same failed strategy over and over and expecting the same result.
What on earth would make you think someone who has gone bankrupt as many times as Trump would have a clue about international trade? Why would you trust the judgement of someone with no macroeconomic training or experience, who when given a chance the first time failed by any and every measure. Why would you believe in him to do better this time with the same failed policies he failed with the first time?
We’ve seen this movie before.
Because your comment about China is completely inaccurate. That's why. As is your comment about him "failing by every measure." That's just bizarro-world Trump Derangement coming through. His first term saw massive increases in real income, low inflation, low unemployment, and a dozen other positive economic indicators. That is, before Covid. You know, Covid.... when you and yours demanded we shut the country down through the election? When Trump was called a murderer for wanting to get back to life? Even with the economic carnage that the Left demanded, the economy was well into a robust recovery by the end of 2020.
As for Trump "going bankrupt," that is misleading, and I think you know it. He never declared personal bankruptcy. He did use Chapter 11 bankruptcy with business numerous times. If it makes you feel good to say "he went bankrupt," go ahead. It has nothing to do with his business acumen. If anything, going Chapter 11 six times and still coming out on top is impressive.
Watching the absolute meltdown people are having is really something. Those who didn’t support Trump to begin with are the loudest. But the center right is up there as well.
I would just say this. I wouldn’t bet against Trump. I don’t know whether or not this tariff strategy will work, but I’d give it better than 50-50 odds. He’s trying to reset the playing field and get countries to renegotiate. If you will look at what he’s doing compared to his past behavior, it’s exactly what he always does. He takes a maximalist position, then is happy when he gets some of what he wants. There was no way to do this on trade without short-term pain. We’re certainly seeing that now.
There is a bigger picture here. It involves lower energy prices, reduced fraud and waste, and lower interest rates. One of the ways of achieving that is to force money into US treasuries, which is exactly what is happening right now. One problem Trump faced upon ansduming office is the stock market was overvalued from a P/E perspective. It was due for a correction. I have to wonder if they just decided to take the bath now.
So we’ll see what happens, as the orange man likes to say. Contrary to popular belief, he doesn’t have a bunch of idiots around him and isn’t just doing these things willy-nilly. Hopefully, they work.
You can tell it's a cult because they just make things up to rationalize what is happening. This is just incredibly detached from reality, Trump has said the tariffs are here to stay and aren't part of a negotiating strategy but here we have a cult member insisting that is what they are. But yeah... I guess making things up is just to reassure us how well things are planned? What a bunch of clowns.
You can tell it's TDS, because they just have to engage in ad hominem attacks for no apparent reason.
"Trump has said the tariffs are here to stay and aren't part of a negotiating strategy."
I haven't heard him say that, but I don't follow every word, so let's assume it's accurate. So? The last thing he is going to do is admit it's all a tactic. Not only does it make sense that he would say this, but he's done exactly this kind of thing his entire career. It's not about liking the tactic or disliking it....thinking it's right or wrong. It's about understanding how the man operates. Do you really disagree with this?
As for plans, let me get this straight: You honestly think Trump and his economic team are just pulling this out of their butts? Have you listened to people like Scott Bessant and Howard Lutnick? Do you know the qualifications these men have? Now, if you think the plan will fail, or it's not worth the short-term pain, or any other objection...fine. But to claim there is no plan? That's an unserious as you claim the Trump admin is.
I’ll take you at your word that you have not heard talk about his reasons for the tariffs. But that is also an admission on your part that you aren’t really informed on the subject.
Anyway, Trump and his team have given multiple conflicting answers for why they are imposing tariffs. In no particular order, they are for national security, a short-term negotiation tactic, not a short-term negotiating tactic but a rebuilding of the world order, addressing trade deficits, and intended to drive domestic manufacturing. That literally cannot give a consistent or coherent answer for their actions.
I honestly do not believe they know what they are doing. Why? Because there is no evidence to support the claim that they have a plan. They can’t articulate what the plan is. They give contradictory explanations. They say things that are demonstrably false (examples: these aren’t reciprocal tariffs. The other countries don’t pay the tariffs). Heck, you are insisting there is a plan, but you can’t articulate it. All you have managed to do is fawn over Lutnick and Bessent.
So we are back to this being a cult. Your entire response is devoid of any fact, and by your own admission, you aren’t informed on what Trump has been saying. Your argument is based on your blind faith in Trump and the people around him. You have offered nothing of substance. It’s a cult.
I didn't say I hadn't heard the reasons. I said I didn't follow every word. I follow the admin and politics very closely.
Anyway, Trump and his team have given multiple conflicting answers for why they are imposing tariffs. In no particular order, they are for national security, a short-term negotiation tactic, not a short-term negotiating tactic but a rebuilding of the world order, addressing trade deficits, and intended to drive domestic manufacturing. That literally cannot give a consistent or coherent answer for their actions.
What you view as conflicting answers, I view as multiple, interconnected reasons for the actions. They are trying to reset the game board, one that has been set "against us" for 80 years.
I honestly do not believe they know what they are doing. Why? Because there is no evidence to support the claim that they have a plan. They can’t articulate what the plan is. They give contradictory explanations. They say things that are demonstrably false (examples: these aren’t reciprocal tariffs. The other countries don’t pay the tariffs). Heck, you are insisting there is a plan, but you can’t articulate it. All you have managed to do is fawn over Lutnick and Bessent.
So we are back to this being a cult. Your entire response is devoid of any fact, and by your own admission, you aren’t informed on what Trump has been saying. Your argument is based on your blind faith in Trump and the people around him. You have offered nothing of substance. It’s a cult.
The plan has been discussed in detail, particularly by Bessant. You can accuse me of "fawning" all you want, but he's gone through it in several interviews. Lutnick hasn't been quite as detailed. Put simply, the plan is to use tariffs to negotiate a better trade environment (get other nations to drop their tariffs and non-tariff trade barriers), take in the tariffs that actually are imposed, and re-shore manufacturing. Secondarily, the idea is to push money into U.S. Treasuries rather than stocks (which were somewhat overvalued from a P/E perspective), lower energy costs, interest rates and deficits. These are all interconnected parts, obviously.
As for "blind faith," that is neither true--nor does it make sense. I already stated I didn't know if it would work in the long term. I also said that given his track record, I wouldn't bet against him. Love him or hate him, the man has consistently been underestimated since at least 2015. Prior to Covid, it's hard to argue his economic policies weren't successful. Take any measure you want, from real income, to GDP, to unemployment, to inflation.
So, if noting past success, pointing out what they've explained, stating that I don't know if it will work long term (etc) makes me a cult member, you're welcome to think that. It's certainly easier than making an actual argument.
I don’t know whether or not this tariff strategy will work, but I’d give it better than 50-50 odds.
Why? Why would you do that? His first term he tried the same thing albeit on a smaller scale and the US lost, badly. He started a trade war with China and China won, big time, they came out vastly stronger on the world stage than at the start. Now he’s doubling down on trying to tariff his way to prosperity. What’s that old line about insanity being trying the same failed strategy over and over and expecting the same result.
What on earth would make you think someone who has gone bankrupt as many times as Trump would have a clue about international trade? Why would you trust the judgement of someone with no macroeconomic training or experience, who when given a chance the first time failed by any and every measure. Why would you believe in him to do better this time with the same failed policies he failed with the first time?
We’ve seen this movie before.
Because your comment about China is completely inaccurate. That's why. As is your comment about him "failing by every measure." That's just bizarro-world Trump Derangement coming through. His first term saw massive increases in real income, low inflation, low unemployment, and a dozen other positive economic indicators. That is, before Covid. You know, Covid.... when you and yours demanded we shut the country down through the election? When Trump was called a murderer for wanting to get back to life? Even with the economic carnage that the Left demanded, the economy was well into a robust recovery by the end of 2020.
As for Trump "going bankrupt," that is misleading, and I think you know it. He never declared personal bankruptcy. He did use Chapter 11 bankruptcy with business numerous times. If it makes you feel good to say "he went bankrupt," go ahead. It has nothing to do with his business acumen. If anything, going Chapter 11 six times and still coming out on top is impressive.
"He didn't go bankrupt. He just filed for bankruptcy numerous times." is my favourite flex of the thread, so far.
Well, it's true. There is a huge difference between personal and business bankruptcy. There is also a huge difference between Chapter 7 (liquidation) and Chapter 11 (reorganization). Trump used Chapter 11 numerous times. This is a tool many, many companies have used successfully to reorganize and emerge from Chapter 11 Bankruptc protections. To name a few:
PG&E
Texaco
Chrysler
General Motors
Six Flags
Marvel Entertainment
Sbarro
Rite Aid
GMAC (Ally Financial)
It's also worth noting that while Apple never actually declared bankruptcy, it was on the razor's edge of doing so. Now, to be clear, I'm not comparing The Trump Organization to these companies. They are all much larger and in different lines of business. However, it does show that "going bankrupt" isn't so simple for corporations. It doesn't imply bad management or lack of financial awareness. As I've said before, one could even argue that Trump avoiding personal bankruptcy despite heavy losses in the nineties shows the kind of thinking and experience we need now.
"He didn't go bankrupt. He just filed for bankruptcy numerous times." is my favourite flex of the thread, so far.
Well, it's true. There is a huge difference between personal and business bankruptcy. There is also a huge difference between Chapter 7 (liquidation) and Chapter 11 (reorganization). Trump used Chapter 11 numerous times. This is a tool many, many companies have used successfully to reorganize and emerge from Chapter 11 Bankruptc protections. To name a few:
PG&E
Texaco
Chrysler
General Motors
Six Flags
Marvel Entertainment
Sbarro
Rite Aid
GMAC (Ally Financial)
It's also worth noting that while Apple never actually declared bankruptcy, it was on the razor's edge of doing so. Now, to be clear, I'm not comparing The Trump Organization to these companies. They are all much larger and in different lines of business. However, it does show that "going bankrupt" isn't so simple for corporations. It doesn't imply bad management or lack of financial awareness. As I've said before, one could even argue that Trump avoiding personal bankruptcy despite heavy losses in the nineties shows the kind of thinking and experience we need now.
I take issue with your characterisation that Chapter 11 does not imply "bad management" but I accept that the term is subjective and reasonable people can disagree. Chapter 11 can only apply when a company is unable to pay its debts as and when they fall due; while there are certain extremely rare circumstances when a truly unforeseeable shock affects a company to this extent, in the most part it's simply a matter of management being too aggressive in its financial risk-taking and not adequately preparing for possible setbacks. In my personal opinion, the vast majority of Chapter 11 filings involve mismanagement.
So for a single person to be involved in Chapter 11 for a business once... well, everybody makes mistakes. Twice? That person probably hasn't learned their lesson, or maybe they're just really unlucky - but it's a warning sign. Half a dozen times? That person is unfit to run a business. Even if it all is just bad luck, the risk is just too great to allow further exposure, and I find it delusional for so many people to believe it hasn't been a deliberate strategy to push all the risk to the creditors.
When an individual keeps their own personal finances secure while setting up creditors to take the fall on multiple occasions... it might not be illegal but it's morally questionable and socially undesirable. The man is provably a cheat and a shyster. That he hasn't suffered serious personal consequences is one of the mysteries of the modern legal system.
Now, I understand that a large portion of the populace of the USA is feeling desperate about the economic situation the country finds itself in. But to consider Trump's behaviour as suitable for the United States of America... the reputational damage is going to last for centuries. The way the USA is treating every other sovereign nation on the planet (and even some uninhabited islands) is provoking a strong antagonistic response even from its supposed allies. I cannot understand the belief that all of these countries will (a) respond in a predictable fashion and (b) accede to the demands of the US.
As you said previously, Trump might (might!) be able to get what he wants out of this approach. But the cost is uncountable. He is so old and financially protected that he probably won't have to suffer any consequences. The vast majority of the world's population does not have that luxury. I fear for my friends in the US and for the result of these actions on the geopolitical stability of the world as it stands now.
Watching the absolute meltdown people are having is really something. Those who didn’t support Trump to begin with are the loudest. But the center right is up there as well.
I would just say this. I wouldn’t bet against Trump. I don’t know whether or not this tariff strategy will work, but I’d give it better than 50-50 odds. He’s trying to reset the playing field and get countries to renegotiate. If you will look at what he’s doing compared to his past behavior, it’s exactly what he always does. He takes a maximalist position, then is happy when he gets some of what he wants. There was no way to do this on trade without short-term pain. We’re certainly seeing that now.
There is a bigger picture here. It involves lower energy prices, reduced fraud and waste, and lower interest rates. One of the ways of achieving that is to force money into US treasuries, which is exactly what is happening right now. One problem Trump faced upon ansduming office is the stock market was overvalued from a P/E perspective. It was due for a correction. I have to wonder if they just decided to take the bath now.
So we’ll see what happens, as the orange man likes to say. Contrary to popular belief, he doesn’t have a bunch of idiots around him and isn’t just doing these things willy-nilly. Hopefully, they work.
You can tell it's a cult because they just make things up to rationalize what is happening. This is just incredibly detached from reality, Trump has said the tariffs are here to stay and aren't part of a negotiating strategy but here we have a cult member insisting that is what they are. But yeah... I guess making things up is just to reassure us how well things are planned? What a bunch of clowns.
You can tell it's TDS, because they just have to engage in ad hominem attacks for no apparent reason.
"Trump has said the tariffs are here to stay and aren't part of a negotiating strategy."
I haven't heard him say that, but I don't follow every word, so let's assume it's accurate. So? The last thing he is going to do is admit it's all a tactic. Not only does it make sense that he would say this, but he's done exactly this kind of thing his entire career. It's not about liking the tactic or disliking it....thinking it's right or wrong. It's about understanding how the man operates. Do you really disagree with this?
As for plans, let me get this straight: You honestly think Trump and his economic team are just pulling this out of their butts? Have you listened to people like Scott Bessant and Howard Lutnick? Do you know the qualifications these men have? Now, if you think the plan will fail, or it's not worth the short-term pain, or any other objection...fine. But to claim there is no plan? That's an unserious as you claim the Trump admin is.
I’ll take you at your word that you have not heard talk about his reasons for the tariffs. But that is also an admission on your part that you aren’t really informed on the subject.
Anyway, Trump and his team have given multiple conflicting answers for why they are imposing tariffs. In no particular order, they are for national security, a short-term negotiation tactic, not a short-term negotiating tactic but a rebuilding of the world order, addressing trade deficits, and intended to drive domestic manufacturing. That literally cannot give a consistent or coherent answer for their actions.
I honestly do not believe they know what they are doing. Why? Because there is no evidence to support the claim that they have a plan. They can’t articulate what the plan is. They give contradictory explanations. They say things that are demonstrably false (examples: these aren’t reciprocal tariffs. The other countries don’t pay the tariffs). Heck, you are insisting there is a plan, but you can’t articulate it. All you have managed to do is fawn over Lutnick and Bessent.
So we are back to this being a cult. Your entire response is devoid of any fact, and by your own admission, you aren’t informed on what Trump has been saying. Your argument is based on your blind faith in Trump and the people around him. You have offered nothing of substance. It’s a cult.
I didn't say I hadn't heard the reasons. I said I didn't follow every word. I follow the admin and politics very closely.
Anyway, Trump and his team have given multiple conflicting answers for why they are imposing tariffs. In no particular order, they are for national security, a short-term negotiation tactic, not a short-term negotiating tactic but a rebuilding of the world order, addressing trade deficits, and intended to drive domestic manufacturing. That literally cannot give a consistent or coherent answer for their actions.
What you view as conflicting answers, I view as multiple, interconnected reasons for the actions. They are trying to reset the game board, one that has been set "against us" for 80 years.
I honestly do not believe they know what they are doing. Why? Because there is no evidence to support the claim that they have a plan. They can’t articulate what the plan is. They give contradictory explanations. They say things that are demonstrably false (examples: these aren’t reciprocal tariffs. The other countries don’t pay the tariffs). Heck, you are insisting there is a plan, but you can’t articulate it. All you have managed to do is fawn over Lutnick and Bessent.
So we are back to this being a cult. Your entire response is devoid of any fact, and by your own admission, you aren’t informed on what Trump has been saying. Your argument is based on your blind faith in Trump and the people around him. You have offered nothing of substance. It’s a cult.
The plan has been discussed in detail, particularly by Bessant. You can accuse me of "fawning" all you want, but he's gone through it in several interviews. Lutnick hasn't been quite as detailed. Put simply, the plan is to use tariffs to negotiate a better trade environment (get other nations to drop their tariffs and non-tariff trade barriers), take in the tariffs that actually are imposed, and re-shore manufacturing. Secondarily, the idea is to push money into U.S. Treasuries rather than stocks (which were somewhat overvalued from a P/E perspective), lower energy costs, interest rates and deficits. These are all interconnected parts, obviously.
As for "blind faith," that is neither true--nor does it make sense. I already stated I didn't know if it would work in the long term. I also said that given his track record, I wouldn't bet against him. Love him or hate him, the man has consistently been underestimated since at least 2015. Prior to Covid, it's hard to argue his economic policies weren't successful. Take any measure you want, from real income, to GDP, to unemployment, to inflation.
So, if noting past success, pointing out what they've explained, stating that I don't know if it will work long term (etc) makes me a cult member, you're welcome to think that. It's certainly easier than making an actual argument.
Trump and his administration keep changing the reason and the purpose of the tariffs. Not only that they continue to just make things up. For example, there is no one trillion dollar trade deficit with China. Also, over the weekend Trump said that the economy is great. So what is he trying to fix of the economy is great? I mean he also said there was no inflation despite recent government reports showing inflation increasing during his brief return to office.
As for “the plan”, sorry you don’t see the internet confrontation in what you are saying. Saying the goal is to repatriate manufacturing and to increase revenue aren’t compatible. If you increase manufacturing you import less and fewer tariffs are paid. Your state reason work against each other.
Lastly, your claims about Trump’s success are really dependent on ignoring his failures. You are leaning very heavily on the “before covid” bit. But the reality is that the start of the pandemic was under him and he was responsible for the initial response. His response crashed the economy and saw the largest loss of American jobs in a single week. The economic numbers for his first term are nothing short of a disaster. You won’t accept that, the cult will never put blame on Dear Leader. But the reality is he was terrible for the economy the first time he was president and he is quickly showing that he terrible for the economy now. The country has lost over 9 trillion in value since his inauguration and the best you y’all can muster is “trust me bro”. No thanks, I’d rather the dimwits not run the show.
I don’t know whether or not this tariff strategy will work, but I’d give it better than 50-50 odds.
Why? Why would you do that? His first term he tried the same thing albeit on a smaller scale and the US lost, badly. He started a trade war with China and China won, big time, they came out vastly stronger on the world stage than at the start. Now he’s doubling down on trying to tariff his way to prosperity. What’s that old line about insanity being trying the same failed strategy over and over and expecting the same result.
What on earth would make you think someone who has gone bankrupt as many times as Trump would have a clue about international trade? Why would you trust the judgement of someone with no macroeconomic training or experience, who when given a chance the first time failed by any and every measure. Why would you believe in him to do better this time with the same failed policies he failed with the first time?
We’ve seen this movie before.
Because your comment about China is completely inaccurate. That's why. As is your comment about him "failing by every measure." That's just bizarro-world Trump Derangement coming through. His first term saw massive increases in real income, low inflation, low unemployment, and a dozen other positive economic indicators. That is, before Covid. You know, Covid.... when you and yours demanded we shut the country down through the election? When Trump was called a murderer for wanting to get back to life? Even with the economic carnage that the Left demanded, the economy was well into a robust recovery by the end of 2020.
As for Trump "going bankrupt," that is misleading, and I think you know it. He never declared personal bankruptcy. He did use Chapter 11 bankruptcy with business numerous times. If it makes you feel good to say "he went bankrupt," go ahead. It has nothing to do with his business acumen. If anything, going Chapter 11 six times and still coming out on top is impressive.
For someone that likes to complain about ad hominem attacks you sure like to use them. Which numbers did Fact Check get wrong? Cite your sources? We both know you can’t and that is exactly why you chose to dismiss the source rather than address the actual contact. This is what being in a cult looks like. You absolutely refuse to think critically or independently. You just reflexively jump to defend Dear Leader, facts be damned
Comments
You can tell it's TDS, because they just have to engage in ad hominem attacks for no apparent reason.
"Trump has said the tariffs are here to stay and aren't part of a negotiating strategy."
I haven't heard him say that, but I don't follow every word, so let's assume it's accurate. So? The last thing he is going to do is admit it's all a tactic. Not only does it make sense that he would say this, but he's done exactly this kind of thing his entire career. It's not about liking the tactic or disliking it....thinking it's right or wrong. It's about understanding how the man operates. Do you really disagree with this?
As for plans, let me get this straight: You honestly think Trump and his economic team are just pulling this out of their butts? Have you listened to people like Scott Bessant and Howard Lutnick? Do you know the qualifications these men have? Now, if you think the plan will fail, or it's not worth the short-term pain, or any other objection...fine. But to claim there is no plan? That's an unserious as you claim the Trump admin is.
Because your comment about China is completely inaccurate. That's why. As is your comment about him "failing by every measure." That's just bizarro-world Trump Derangement coming through. His first term saw massive increases in real income, low inflation, low unemployment, and a dozen other positive economic indicators. That is, before Covid. You know, Covid.... when you and yours demanded we shut the country down through the election? When Trump was called a murderer for wanting to get back to life? Even with the economic carnage that the Left demanded, the economy was well into a robust recovery by the end of 2020.
As for Trump "going bankrupt," that is misleading, and I think you know it. He never declared personal bankruptcy. He did use Chapter 11 bankruptcy with business numerous times. If it makes you feel good to say "he went bankrupt," go ahead. It has nothing to do with his business acumen. If anything, going Chapter 11 six times and still coming out on top is impressive.
I didn't say I hadn't heard the reasons. I said I didn't follow every word. I follow the admin and politics very closely.
What you view as conflicting answers, I view as multiple, interconnected reasons for the actions. They are trying to reset the game board, one that has been set "against us" for 80 years.
The plan has been discussed in detail, particularly by Bessant. You can accuse me of "fawning" all you want, but he's gone through it in several interviews. Lutnick hasn't been quite as detailed. Put simply, the plan is to use tariffs to negotiate a better trade environment (get other nations to drop their tariffs and non-tariff trade barriers), take in the tariffs that actually are imposed, and re-shore manufacturing. Secondarily, the idea is to push money into U.S. Treasuries rather than stocks (which were somewhat overvalued from a P/E perspective), lower energy costs, interest rates and deficits. These are all interconnected parts, obviously.
As for "blind faith," that is neither true--nor does it make sense. I already stated I didn't know if it would work in the long term. I also said that given his track record, I wouldn't bet against him. Love him or hate him, the man has consistently been underestimated since at least 2015. Prior to Covid, it's hard to argue his economic policies weren't successful. Take any measure you want, from real income, to GDP, to unemployment, to inflation.
So, if noting past success, pointing out what they've explained, stating that I don't know if it will work long term (etc) makes me a cult member, you're welcome to think that. It's certainly easier than making an actual argument.
Factcheck.org. Are you kidding me?
It's also worth noting that while Apple never actually declared bankruptcy, it was on the razor's edge of doing so. Now, to be clear, I'm not comparing The Trump Organization to these companies. They are all much larger and in different lines of business. However, it does show that "going bankrupt" isn't so simple for corporations. It doesn't imply bad management or lack of financial awareness. As I've said before, one could even argue that Trump avoiding personal bankruptcy despite heavy losses in the nineties shows the kind of thinking and experience we need now.
Explaining to us how he’s ruined most of his businesses while completely avoiding personal accountability is absolutely spot on.
I take issue with your characterisation that Chapter 11 does not imply "bad management" but I accept that the term is subjective and reasonable people can disagree. Chapter 11 can only apply when a company is unable to pay its debts as and when they fall due; while there are certain extremely rare circumstances when a truly unforeseeable shock affects a company to this extent, in the most part it's simply a matter of management being too aggressive in its financial risk-taking and not adequately preparing for possible setbacks. In my personal opinion, the vast majority of Chapter 11 filings involve mismanagement.
So for a single person to be involved in Chapter 11 for a business once... well, everybody makes mistakes. Twice? That person probably hasn't learned their lesson, or maybe they're just really unlucky - but it's a warning sign. Half a dozen times? That person is unfit to run a business. Even if it all is just bad luck, the risk is just too great to allow further exposure, and I find it delusional for so many people to believe it hasn't been a deliberate strategy to push all the risk to the creditors.
When an individual keeps their own personal finances secure while setting up creditors to take the fall on multiple occasions... it might not be illegal but it's morally questionable and socially undesirable. The man is provably a cheat and a shyster. That he hasn't suffered serious personal consequences is one of the mysteries of the modern legal system.
Now, I understand that a large portion of the populace of the USA is feeling desperate about the economic situation the country finds itself in. But to consider Trump's behaviour as suitable for the United States of America... the reputational damage is going to last for centuries. The way the USA is treating every other sovereign nation on the planet (and even some uninhabited islands) is provoking a strong antagonistic response even from its supposed allies. I cannot understand the belief that all of these countries will (a) respond in a predictable fashion and (b) accede to the demands of the US.
As you said previously, Trump might (might!) be able to get what he wants out of this approach. But the cost is uncountable. He is so old and financially protected that he probably won't have to suffer any consequences. The vast majority of the world's population does not have that luxury. I fear for my friends in the US and for the result of these actions on the geopolitical stability of the world as it stands now.