Craig Federighi says macOS would ruin what makes the iPad special

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  • Reply 41 of 55
    thttht Posts: 6,010member
    charlesn said:
    mfryd said:
    However, this is not a reason to prohibit running Mac OSX on an iPad.   Users should have a choice as to which OS they run.

    I have nothing against the iPad OS.   It's a great solution for many (but not all) users.   Why not allow users to choose which OS they are running?    

    The iPad OS can be the default, but please allow power users to install OSX.  iPad apps already work inside of Mac OSX, so no functionality is lost.  

    An iPad with an M4 processor, 16GB RAM, 2TB SSD, Thunderbolt 3, and a Magic Keyboard Folio (Keyboard and trackpad) would make a damn fine portable Mac.
    Please, just buy a MacBook if you want a “damn fine portable Mac”, it’s already here. I for one do not want my iPad running macOS - I’ll leave that to my Mac thanks.
    Comments like this convince me that reading comprehension has become a lost skill in America. Pretty aggressive response considering he didn't say that you--or any iPad user--HAD to have their iPad running MacOS. What he said was: "The iPad OS can be the default, but please allow power users to install OSX." See? Not only do you not have to run MacOS on your iPad, you don't even have to install it! He would simply like that option for people who do want to install it. And your problem with this request, which would not affect you in the least, is WHAT exactly? I have suggested this as a possibility myself, since Apple Silicon can boot into either OS, and this kind of separate solution doesn't involve ANY compromise in either OS--no need to try and kludge a touchscreen into MacOS or complicate iPadOS--both OSes work exactly as they do now, which is why he specifies the need for a Magic Keyboard folio, because you'll need a keyboard and trackpad for MacOS. Of course, we all know why this will never happen: Apple wants to continue to sell us two devices, not one. It's also why they've resisted ease-of-use functionality in iPadOS (the files system, multitasking, etc) that would make it more of an easy laptop replacement for more people. It's really as simple as that. 
    My primary fear with allowing dual-booting of macOS on iPads is that Apple stops advancing iPadOS because there is less customer demand to do so.

    I think the ideal for iPadOS is to do everything that macOS can do, but with touch input. All files and documents are cross-compatible. All workflows are cross-compatible. All the features are the same. The only difference is the iPadOS UI is designed for a touch interface while macOS is designed for a pointer interface. Or perhaps, iPadOS is designed for a horizontal display while macOS is designed for a vertical display.

    Apple has its own vision for what the iPad is. It's not what a lot of users want. So, the march of progress for iPadOS is glacial. If they are going to release an 19" folding display iPad, this will hopefully increase the pace. A 19" folding display, capable of being configured to multiple form factors: large flat tablet, clamshell laptop, vertical display like an iMac, and if the hinge is 0-to-360, a heavy 13" tablet, will drive more PC operating system features into iPadOS. Would be good to see it come out.
    kiltedgreen
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  • Reply 42 of 55
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,506member
    MplsP said:
    In general I agree with Federighi. The iPad generally works well at what it does but not so well when you push to do things outside of what it (or the OS) is designed to do. What people really want is a device with the strengths and ease if the iPad touch interface with the power and flexibility of a Mac. That's far easier said than done. 

    The iPad is absolutely capable of running MacOS but Apple clearly doesn't want a Microsoft Surface cluster where you have something that doesn't work well in either capacity. That was part of the problem with many early touch devices - they tried to take the desktop interface and use it as a touch interface and it didn't work. Apple rethought things with the iPhone and iPad and make something that works well and has slowly evolved the interface.

    The problem with 'writing one program for both devices' is that the interface is different between the two devices so you'd either having a poorly designed program that works on both or effectively writing two programs anyway. It would be far easier to have an iPad program work on a Mac but then people would complain that its functionality was crippled. 

    Finally, for the people who say 'Apple should let us install MacOS on the iPad,' that would require some significant rewriting of the OS and if Apple were to do that then they would also be endorsing MacOS on the iPad with all the limitations, which is exactly what this entire thread is about.
    I had a Surface Pro a few years back, and while it wasn’t the best tablet experience, it really shined as a laptop or desktop replacement. It ran full desktop apps, full multitasking and side by side apps, supported multiple user profiles, and worked great with external monitors—even dual-monitor setups. It didn’t have the same limitations the iPad had when trying to use it like a desktop.

    That said, the iPad definitely offers a better tablet experience, it's smoother and more intuitive for touch-based use. But when it comes to replacing a desktop, it just doesn’t quite measure up. From my experience using both, I’d say the iPad is the best tablet out there, but the Surface Pro is the better all-around device if you’re looking for something to replace a desktop / laptop. 
    muthuk_vanalingam
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  • Reply 43 of 55
    CheeseFreezecheesefreeze Posts: 1,432member
    mfryd said:
    However, this is not a reason to prohibit running Mac OSX on an iPad.   Users should have a choice as to which OS they run.

    I have nothing against the iPad OS.   It's a great solution for many (but not all) users.   Why not allow users to choose which OS they are running?    

    The iPad OS can be the default, but please allow power users to install OSX.  iPad apps already work inside of Mac OSX, so no functionality is lost.  

    An iPad with an M4 processor, 16GB RAM, 2TB SSD, Thunderbolt 3, and a Magic Keyboard Folio (Keyboard and trackpad) would make a damn fine portable Mac.
    Giving users options what to do with their iPad may sound great at first - flexibility! Choice! - but it makes for a lousy product where you essentially are diluting f the whole idea behind it and creating a Frankenstein product that kinda competes with their laptops.

    Apple’s vision makes sense. But to me that also means their Pro offerings don’t make sense pricing wise. This is how I express that with my wallet: I buy mid to high-end macOS product, and low end iPadOS product.
    The iPad’s promise and associated use-cases to me excel under the $700 price range.
    muthuk_vanalingam
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  • Reply 44 of 55
    Xedxed Posts: 3,258member
    mfryd said:
    However, this is not a reason to prohibit running Mac OSX on an iPad.   Users should have a choice as to which OS they run.

    I have nothing against the iPad OS.   It's a great solution for many (but not all) users.   Why not allow users to choose which OS they are running?    

    The iPad OS can be the default, but please allow power users to install OSX.  iPad apps already work inside of Mac OSX, so no functionality is lost.  

    An iPad with an M4 processor, 16GB RAM, 2TB SSD, Thunderbolt 3, and a Magic Keyboard Folio (Keyboard and trackpad) would make a damn fine portable Mac.
    Then go for it. Nothing is stopping anyone with a desire and skill from making that a reality. We saw dual booting on Intel Macs because a motivated person wanted to run Windows. Then Apple made BootCamp official. I doubt there's enough interest from users that Apple would make an official dual boot option, but you still make your own dual boot option with an unofficial version of macOS.

    But I take it you mean that Apple should somehow be required to support that built-in dual OS configuration; while I would argue that they choose to cater to the markets they want, and if that excludes a few people that want to run macOS on an iPad then they have that right.
    edited June 15
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  • Reply 45 of 55
    Xedxed Posts: 3,258member
    mfryd said:
    However, this is not a reason to prohibit running Mac OSX on an iPad.   Users should have a choice as to which OS they run.

    I have nothing against the iPad OS.   It's a great solution for many (but not all) users.   Why not allow users to choose which OS they are running?    

    The iPad OS can be the default, but please allow power users to install OSX.  iPad apps already work inside of Mac OSX, so no functionality is lost.  

    An iPad with an M4 processor, 16GB RAM, 2TB SSD, Thunderbolt 3, and a Magic Keyboard Folio (Keyboard and trackpad) would make a damn fine portable Mac.
    Giving users options what to do with their iPad may sound great at first - flexibility! Choice! - but it makes for a lousy product where you essentially are diluting f the whole idea behind it and creating a Frankenstein product that kinda competes with their laptops.

    Apple’s vision makes sense. But to me that also means their Pro offerings don’t make sense pricing wise. This is how I express that with my wallet: I buy mid to high-end macOS product, and low end iPadOS product.
    The iPad’s promise and associated use-cases to me excel under the $700 price range.
    I remember about 15 years ago when there were Android phones that could be docked to offer a desktop OS option. I only know of one person that ever owned one and even he didn't think the implementation made it worthwhile.

    edit: I think it was the Sony Xperia and it looks like they're still making them with the docking feature. Perhaps they've improved it to the point that it's a great desktop-on-the-go option.
    edited June 15
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  • Reply 46 of 55
    alandailalandail Posts: 789member
    They don't need to merge the OSes, but do need the iPad to be able to run more tools.

    For me I need things like

    - Docker
    - Cursor
    - Terminal
    - Github

    Other people need different Mac tools.

    I don't even want to replace the Mac with the iPad, I will still buy both. But when I travel for a few days I want to be able to leave my Mac at home, but be able to use those tools if something comes up for work.  


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  • Reply 47 of 55
    mattinozmattinoz Posts: 2,680member
    lmac said:
    Well that's only fair. iOS is ruining what makes the Mac special.
    And what could make what make the iPad more special.
    iOS is the problem its security model doesn’t need to be applied anywhere beyond the real time devices like the phone or watch. And frankly should have been improved on those devices as well.

    i find it funny this iPad argument always gets misinterpreted as wanting macOS on the pad because it is easier to defeat and distracts from the real problem.

    iPad apps should be both geared to the platform that is touch first and still allow the functionality that a Mac app can on its fixed hardware variants. 

    There should be a target for professional apps that can span pad, vision and mac that can be deployed in or out of the AppStore and include scripting and plugin support.


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  • Reply 48 of 55
    darbus69darbus69 Posts: 96member
    avon b7 said:
    Those are extremely poor arguments IMO.

    Tablets are tools like anything else in the digital sphere. They are also computers so they should be able to do anything a similarly sized standard laptop can do.

    The days of tablets being incapable (in hardware terms) of achieving laptop-like productivity should be gone by now. 

    Deliberately holding them back is doing them and underservice. Especially at the top end. 

    There should be seamless integration between these devices and they should offer the same general functionality. 

    That, ideally (and possibly inevitably) would require a single OS running on multiple devices with it simply being paired down to each device's strengths/weaknesses. 

    Write once, run anywhere. One app with multiple deployment targets. 

    Apple is already inching (but agonisingly slowly) towards convergence in certain areas and my guess is that that is the real goal at some point (including touchscreen Macs of course). 

    If they want to keep tablets in a 'limited' role, just add a 'tablet' mode to the device.

    Mac OS shipped with Simple Finder years ago. Tablets could have a similar mode and let users decide. Tablets already accommodate even more limited roles (with things like Kiosk Modes).

    I can't see any decent reason why modern powerful tablets should be able to do far, far more than they currently do but they need the right apps and OS foundations. 

    I definitely see no good reason why they should not be fully multiuser for example. 

    Of course it would take a lot of engineering effort and probably require some serious reworking of the foundations but the competition isn't sitting still and is already moving in this direction. The foundations have been laid. 

    IMO, that is probably the real reason Apple wants to temper the desire for 'macOS tablet' at the moment. They don't have the foundations ready. 

    Are we really to believe these poor arguments and then see more and more 'macOS' features seep into 'iPadOS'?

    I see convergence in spite of these claims that that isn't the goal. 
    DID YOU HAVE TO WRITE A BOOK???

    An iPad is not and was not designed to be a MacOS product, plain and simple…
    williamlondonkiltedgreen
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  • Reply 49 of 55
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 8,324member
    darbus69 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Those are extremely poor arguments IMO.

    Tablets are tools like anything else in the digital sphere. They are also computers so they should be able to do anything a similarly sized standard laptop can do.

    The days of tablets being incapable (in hardware terms) of achieving laptop-like productivity should be gone by now. 

    Deliberately holding them back is doing them and underservice. Especially at the top end. 

    There should be seamless integration between these devices and they should offer the same general functionality. 

    That, ideally (and possibly inevitably) would require a single OS running on multiple devices with it simply being paired down to each device's strengths/weaknesses. 

    Write once, run anywhere. One app with multiple deployment targets. 

    Apple is already inching (but agonisingly slowly) towards convergence in certain areas and my guess is that that is the real goal at some point (including touchscreen Macs of course). 

    If they want to keep tablets in a 'limited' role, just add a 'tablet' mode to the device.

    Mac OS shipped with Simple Finder years ago. Tablets could have a similar mode and let users decide. Tablets already accommodate even more limited roles (with things like Kiosk Modes).

    I can't see any decent reason why modern powerful tablets should be able to do far, far more than they currently do but they need the right apps and OS foundations. 

    I definitely see no good reason why they should not be fully multiuser for example. 

    Of course it would take a lot of engineering effort and probably require some serious reworking of the foundations but the competition isn't sitting still and is already moving in this direction. The foundations have been laid. 

    IMO, that is probably the real reason Apple wants to temper the desire for 'macOS tablet' at the moment. They don't have the foundations ready. 

    Are we really to believe these poor arguments and then see more and more 'macOS' features seep into 'iPadOS'?

    I see convergence in spite of these claims that that isn't the goal. 
    DID YOU HAVE TO WRITE A BOOK???

    An iPad is not and was not designed to be a MacOS product, plain and simple…
    It wasn't designed with a user facing file system either but look where we are now. 

    And a cursor? 

    Window management? 

    Multi-tasking? 

    As more desktop OS features bleed into iPadOS and competing systems move forward with even more complete OSes running seamlessly across a range of devices Apple might change its design. No matter what Federighi says today. 

    https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/harmonyos-huaweis-ambitious-operating-system-future-surenthiran-fscwf

    Personally, I think Apple is already working on a unified system. 

    macOS wasn't designed for touch input but even in this article he says that can't be ruled out. 

    Like I said, he is tempering desires. 

    Everything will depend on how those competing systems do and if they do well, Apple might have to change it's design focus. Plain and simple. 

    Why do you think iOS has seen a veritable avalanche of Android features over the last few years?

    Apple doubled down on customisation limits for years but has completely changed course on that. 

    Design goals can and do change. 
    edited June 16
    muthuk_vanalingam
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  • Reply 50 of 55
    Penzipenzi Posts: 58member
    My clamouring for a more MacOS-like iPadOS is exactly that. I do not want the iPad to actually run macOS, I want iPadOS to become way more capable (iPadOS 26 seems very much to hit most of my pain points but we’ll see when I’m actually a daily user this autumn) and I’d want it to be more open and powerful (actual non-Apple browsers, macOS level apps but designed for iPad, etc). 

    That said, Jason Snell had a fantastic suggestion a year or two ago: it runs iPadOS when gadding about town as a tablet but transforms into a macOS device when hooked up to an external display. Talk about overhead! But man, what a device that would be…
    williamlondon
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  • Reply 51 of 55
    thedbathedba Posts: 849member
    So many posts yet most are missing the elephant in the room. Namely "software" and in particular, design of said software.
    If having full desktop "productivity" apps was the way to go, then the "Surface" would've dominated the market. But what really happened with it?
    People ended up using it as a full Windows laptop. In other words, tablet specific apps for the Surface, fell by the wayside. Two  main reasons for that.

    01) Developers don't want to spend extra cash designing multiple sets of apps. Most popular ones have a phone and a desktop app. Now if the desktop app can run on the tablet unimpeded, why spend the extra time and money to design a 3rd interface?

    02) Users will always default to what they already know, path of least resistance. So if you offer an already busy user, the same software but a different design, one for tablet and one for desktop, then most likely the user will opt for the desktop design they already know.

    Surface didn't catch on like wildfire and blow the iPad out of the water because of those reasons.
    Users who opt for iPad, love it because of its simplicity, intuitiveness and because Apple stuck with that original vision.  
    thtwilliamlondonkiltedgreen
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  • Reply 52 of 55
    charlesn said:
    mfryd said:
    However, this is not a reason to prohibit running Mac OSX on an iPad.   Users should have a choice as to which OS they run.

    I have nothing against the iPad OS.   It's a great solution for many (but not all) users.   Why not allow users to choose which OS they are running?    

    The iPad OS can be the default, but please allow power users to install OSX.  iPad apps already work inside of Mac OSX, so no functionality is lost.  

    An iPad with an M4 processor, 16GB RAM, 2TB SSD, Thunderbolt 3, and a Magic Keyboard Folio (Keyboard and trackpad) would make a damn fine portable Mac.
    Please, just buy a MacBook if you want a “damn fine portable Mac”, it’s already here. I for one do not want my iPad running macOS - I’ll leave that to my Mac thanks.
    Comments like this convince me that reading comprehension has become a lost skill in America. Pretty aggressive response considering he didn't say that you--or any iPad user--HAD to have their iPad running MacOS. What he said was: "The iPad OS can be the default, but please allow power users to install OSX." See? Not only do you not have to run MacOS on your iPad, you don't even have to install it! He would simply like that option for people who do want to install it. And your problem with this request, which would not affect you in the least, is WHAT exactly? I have suggested this as a possibility myself, since Apple Silicon can boot into either OS, and this kind of separate solution doesn't involve ANY compromise in either OS--no need to try and kludge a touchscreen into MacOS or complicate iPadOS--both OSes work exactly as they do now, which is why he specifies the need for a Magic Keyboard folio, because you'll need a keyboard and trackpad for MacOS. Of course, we all know why this will never happen: Apple wants to continue to sell us two devices, not one. It's also why they've resisted ease-of-use functionality in iPadOS (the files system, multitasking, etc) that would make it more of an easy laptop replacement for more people. It's really as simple as that. 
    Sorry if it came over as aggression, it was exasperation! My reading comprehension is just fine thank you (and I’m not American). Logistically how would Apple approach selling such a creature? What percentage of iPad users would be the target audience? What advantage does Apple gain from a dual boot iPad? The only dual boot product Apple have ever made is the Intel Mac and that was to another company’s OS - they have NEVER done it with their own OSes.

    I doubt Apple could simply take macOS and run it on an iPad anyway as there will be subtle assumptions built into macOS that would not work on an iPad. Then we’d end up with macOS for Mac, macOS for iPad and iPadOS. Maybe some people would like iPadOS to run on their Mac with an M4 Ultra chip, who knows? iPadOS for Mac?

    What is exasperating is this never ending fantasy of a portable Mac that isn’t a Mac but an iPad. Or would an iPad be running macOS become a Mac and no longer an iPad? Are these macOS on iPad people desperate for a touch screen Mac or do they just want a Mac with no attached keyboard? Do they want an iPad with apps that have all the same features as the Mac version - if so, contact the company who made the app, it won’t be fixed by changing the OS. What is the end goal of this?
    edited June 16
    williamlondon
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  • Reply 53 of 55
    charlesn said:
    mfryd said:
    However, this is not a reason to prohibit running Mac OSX on an iPad.   Users should have a choice as to which OS they run.

    I have nothing against the iPad OS.   It's a great solution for many (but not all) users.   Why not allow users to choose which OS they are running?    

    The iPad OS can be the default, but please allow power users to install OSX.  iPad apps already work inside of Mac OSX, so no functionality is lost.  

    An iPad with an M4 processor, 16GB RAM, 2TB SSD, Thunderbolt 3, and a Magic Keyboard Folio (Keyboard and trackpad) would make a damn fine portable Mac.
    Please, just buy a MacBook if you want a “damn fine portable Mac”, it’s already here. I for one do not want my iPad running macOS - I’ll leave that to my Mac thanks.
    Comments like this convince me that reading comprehension has become a lost skill in America. Pretty aggressive response considering he didn't say that you--or any iPad user--HAD to have their iPad running MacOS. What he said was: "The iPad OS can be the default, but please allow power users to install OSX." See? Not only do you not have to run MacOS on your iPad, you don't even have to install it! He would simply like that option for people who do want to install it. And your problem with this request, which would not affect you in the least, is WHAT exactly? I have suggested this as a possibility myself, since Apple Silicon can boot into either OS, and this kind of separate solution doesn't involve ANY compromise in either OS--no need to try and kludge a touchscreen into MacOS or complicate iPadOS--both OSes work exactly as they do now, which is why he specifies the need for a Magic Keyboard folio, because you'll need a keyboard and trackpad for MacOS. Of course, we all know why this will never happen: Apple wants to continue to sell us two devices, not one. It's also why they've resisted ease-of-use functionality in iPadOS (the files system, multitasking, etc) that would make it more of an easy laptop replacement for more people. It's really as simple as that. 
    Sorry if it came over as aggression, it was exasperation! My reading comprehension is just fine thank you (and I’m not American). Logistically how would Apple approach selling such a creature? What percentage of iPad users would be the target audience? What advantage does Apple gain from a dual boot iPad? The only dual boot product Apple have ever made is the Intel Mac and that was to another company’s OS - they have NEVER done it with their own OSes.

    I doubt Apple could simply take macOS and run it on an iPad anyway as there will be subtle assumptions built into macOS that would not work on an iPad. Then we’d end up with macOS for Mac, macOS for iPad and iPadOS. Maybe some people would like iPadOS to run on their Mac with an M4 Ultra chip, who knows? iPadOS for Mac?

    What is exasperating is this never ending fantasy of a portable Mac that isn’t a Mac but an iPad. Or would an iPad be running macOS become a Mac and no longer an iPad? Are these macOS on iPad people desperate for a touch screen Mac or do they just want a Mac with no attached keyboard? Do they want an iPad with apps that have all the same features as the Mac version - if so, contact the company who made the app, it won’t be fixed by changing the OS. What is the end goal of this?
    In the very first line, you are claiming that "My reading comprehension is just fine" and goes on to prove the exact opposite in the rest of the post.
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  • Reply 54 of 55
    mfrydmfryd Posts: 273member
    mfryd said:
    However, this is not a reason to prohibit running Mac OSX on an iPad.   Users should have a choice as to which OS they run.

    I have nothing against the iPad OS.   It's a great solution for many (but not all) users.   Why not allow users to choose which OS they are running?    

    The iPad OS can be the default, but please allow power users to install OSX.  iPad apps already work inside of Mac OSX, so no functionality is lost.  

    An iPad with an M4 processor, 16GB RAM, 2TB SSD, Thunderbolt 3, and a Magic Keyboard Folio (Keyboard and trackpad) would make a damn fine portable Mac.
    Giving users options what to do with their iPad may sound great at first - flexibility! Choice! - but it makes for a lousy product where you essentially are diluting f the whole idea behind it and creating a Frankenstein product that kinda competes with their laptops.

    Apple’s vision makes sense. But to me that also means their Pro offerings don’t make sense pricing wise. This is how I express that with my wallet: I buy mid to high-end macOS product, and low end iPadOS product.
    The iPad’s promise and associated use-cases to me excel under the $700 price range.
    If you are worried that Apple is diluting the whole idea behind the iPad, then you should be complaining about the fact that they offer an optional keyboard and trackpad for the device.  Furthermore, they have a Thunderbolt port that allows external monitors, external disk drives, wired ethernet, etc.  They even offer a "pencil" that gives you the functionality of a mouse.

    At this point Apple has already "diluted the whole idea" as they offer an iPad that has all the hardware needed to run Mac OSX.

    You may as well complain about Apple Vision Pro, as it allows you to mirror a Mac's screen.  Which dilutes the whole idea of spatial computing.

    Needless to say, I disagree with that position.  Mac apps are better suited to some tasks, and iPad Apps are better suited to others.   An iPad with Mac OSX offers advantages over having both a Mac and an iPad.  When you need a Mac, just use a keyboard and trackpad.  When you don't need a Mac, remove the keyboard and run iPad apps.  Heck, you could even run the iPad OS in a virtual machine.

    Sure, a MacBook is a better Mac than an iPad without a keyboard/trackpad, but the iPad is at least usable that way.  The iPad with Apple's keyboard/trackpad is the equivalent of a MacBook Air, except it has one less thunderbolt port and no built-in headphone jack.

    Do keep in mind that under the hood, iOS, tvOS, iPad OS and Mac OSX are essentially the same operating system.  The differences are the user interface layer, and a few OS options.   I am willing to be that all of them use the same underlying code base for the core of the OS.

    My position is not to take anything away from the iPad, simply to offer the option of running Mac OSX for those that have the need.

    muthuk_vanalingamavon b7
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  • Reply 55 of 55
    drandeldrandel Posts: 30member
    mfryd said:
    However, this is not a reason to prohibit running Mac OSX on an iPad.   Users should have a choice as to which OS they run.

    I have nothing against the iPad OS.   It's a great solution for many (but not all) users.   Why not allow users to choose which OS they are running?    

    The iPad OS can be the default, but please allow power users to install OSX.  iPad apps already work inside of Mac OSX, so no functionality is lost.  

    An iPad with an M4 processor, 16GB RAM, 2TB SSD, Thunderbolt 3, and a Magic Keyboard Folio (Keyboard and trackpad) would make a damn fine portable Mac.

    I agree.  Why would I want MacOS on iPad?  Not so much for the OS, but for the sophistication and features of the apps.  Compare Word365 on both platforms--no comparison.  Using Word on iPadOS is clunky with roadblocks, it seems, down every feature path.  
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