In general, Americans have more mental associations with a particular month than a particular day. This makes sense logically because a given month will have set holidays, weather patterns, etc. that go along with it that a person will consciously or subconsciously associate with their memories, and frame these memories around the current thought. Do you have an explanation why the day listed first is better for human associations?
Think about it... 05/2003 (hot weather, WWDC coming up, etc.) has more meaning than 9th/2003. That's the way most Americans think, anyway.
Boy, that's got to be the most ridiculous post I've read here for a long time.
My understanding is that the system arose from the American preference for saying September the 11th, as opposed to the 11th of September, similar to the way sports events are designated 'Boston at Chicago'; with the home ground listed second. The convention outside the US is of course to put the home team first. Its possible that a lot of American written conventions grew ad hoc from spoken conventions, whereas many European conventions have been handed down by standards organisations (most of them French!)
Well, obviously the argument is moot if you're only talking about days within a single month. Then the month and year aren't even mentioned because they're assumed. I don't think you understood my previous post.
In general, Americans have more mental associations with a particular month than a particular day. This makes sense logically because a given month will have set holidays, weather patterns, etc. that go along with it that a person will consciously or subconsciously associate with their memories, and frame these memories around the current thought. Do you have an explanation why the day listed first is better for human associations?
Think about it... 05/2003 (hot weather, WWDC coming up, etc.) has more meaning than 9th/2003. That's the way most Americans think, anyway.
Most normal people live day by day and therefore are always thinking day by day even if they plan ahead. I can tell you I have far too much on every day and every week to be thinking or caring much about month by month calendering. If I calendar something in for next month I don't calendar it in as 06/2003 either it goes in as 15/06/2003 or 02/06/2003. The only reason you'd be month focused is because you aren't doing enough.
I'd be in trouble if I started thinking:
05/03: Meeting, Meeting, Prelim report, feedback meeting, controller submission, final report submision, day of hell.
That tells me precisely nothing about my week ahead except for the fact I have far too little time to sleep.
Edit: I believe vinney57 has the reason behind the difference right too. Still it doesn't change the fact that the day is the primary bit of information.
That's not a European standard, it's an ISO standard - designed not for people to read, but for computers, because no one can get them to sort dates in the right order if the data is just "string".
On a Mac note - one of the things Copland was supposed to introduce was "logical" ordering in the Finder, so that you got:
1
2
10
14
Rather than
1
10
14
2
But we have that ordering in OS X, no? At least I have (although I can't say that I'm thoroughly happy with it, it always made more sence to provide the preceding digits (01, 02, ..., 10, ...) just to be sure, and it does still, as many applications will not treat this as the finder does).
On a side note, I think the yy/mm/day is the best way to go these days, especially in light of computer use and automatic sorting (e.g. in the Finder). It's the only way to tell your computer, without it having to parse tricky date formats, that may 5th 2001 comes before january 1st 2002, or something like that. I agree with most here that the mm/dd/yy notation is utterly crap. The person who first came up with this may be shot with my permission.
Think about it... 05/2003 (hot weather, WWDC coming up, etc.) has more meaning than 9th/2003. That's the way most Americans think, anyway.
You dingbat, you just disproved your own argument, because it's totally illogical to write 05/2003 (May 2003) in US notation, given that you would usually put the day next to the year!?
Also, your argument is totally spurious anyway. People are more concerned about the day of the month than the month itself. The concern is "What am I doing on the 14th", not "what am I doing in May".
Even the long date method (January 25, 2003) is not kept to, because people (in the US) routinely say "Fourth of July" etc.
Do you care that independence day is in July, or on the 4th?
You cite some nonsense about zodiac signs, but these actually cross over months, so are meaningless without knowing the date.
My understanding is that the system arose from the American preference for saying September the 11th, as opposed to the 11th of September...
Actually, the "English" way of spelling out the date in longhand, ie "May 10, 2003" is the same as the US method - take a look at the top of any newspaper masthead. This method is also used in the log date display fo UK settings in the MacOS - and that's not just because we don't get a localised OS any more, it's always been like that.
Personally I think this method is archaic, and use "10 May 2003", and adjust the system settings accordingly.
It's also not true that Americans universally "say" "May 10", they're just as likely to say "10th of May" - classic example is "4th of July".
Sorry yomofo loses.
On the US use of the (English) imperial measurement system, the metric system is getting in by stealth - all machinery is built to metric standards - ie metric threads on nut/bolts etc. On the "slow" coastal road from LA to San Francisco distances are marked on some signs in km.
ok, ok, you guys are getting a little up in arms over this.
Obviously, within a given month, the month is irrelevant, and the day is what counts. I've stated this several times already.
I was in no way asserting where the month/day/year order came from, or that it was the best way. I merely stated that it makes the most sense to me, so I continue to use it. Maybe it's because I've structured my thoughts for so long in this fashion, and I'm addicted to my stupid American bad habits. Oh well.
The order of month/day/year only becomes important when we're talking about things on a yearly time scale. I was simply saying that I structure my thoughts more in a monthly fashion in this scenario. Most of what I do on a yearly time scale necessarily has references to other months, anyway, so I structure my thoughts accordingly.
Barto wanted an explanation as to why the month/day/year isn't confusing to Americans. I proposed why it makes sense to me, and why I continue to use it. No more, no less.
No one's asking you to change your day/month/year ordering, so just relax.
If I have an appointment on d/m/y 12/5/2003, the 12 is most important. Same with a letter written to me, or most other dates I have to remember. Back in the stone age, 5/12/2003 was better because seasons were more important than days. Similar to the imperial system
Barto
Conversely, if you found an old love letter from last year, you'd care it was sent in June right before you broke up, not that it was sent on the 8th.
There's more to deal with in the past than in the present, the way that I think about it. Maybe I'm "living in the past", but most things on a yearly time scale have associations to other months, and people don't care about days. That's why, like I said, year/month/day makes the most sense to me, and perhaps I'll switch to that method.
Being that this thread is no longer on-topic I'll chime in with my off-topic thoughts. As for the date I have to say that after having lived in Europe for 6 years, I have gotten used to many different ways of seeing it written. One thing I hate about numerical representation of the day and month is that the first 12 days are the worst. It would be nice if things were standard, but you know as well as I do, that regardless of where you live in this planet, the people in those locations are going to do what they want, how they want, including the date. So they may think that the day goes first, or the month. So what date is this: 02/03/03? Is it 2 March 2003, is it 3 February 03, or is it 3 March 2002? That's why whenever I write the date in said format, I always use this format: 12 Mar 03. That way everyone can see that I'm not suggesting that it's December 3rd. So now to post this on the thread that claims to be "firewireless". Then again, it is an appropriate heading because firewire hasn't been mentioned in quite a while.
That's not a European standard, it's an ISO standard
German, actually. DIN 8006 or so.
Quote:
designed not for people to read, but for computers, because no one can get them to sort dates in the right order if the data is just "string".
That's one of the reasons, but it's also - afaik - meant for anyone. I use it at school and teachers have yet to complain. I find it much more easier to understand.
Quote:
On a Mac note - one of the things Copland was supposed to introduce was "logical" ordering in the Finder, so that you got:
1
2
10
14
Rather than
1
10
14
2
There was actually an extension for Mac OS Classic that hacked the Finder to do exactly that.
Well acually that is part of the problem - we buy crappy American software that can only deal with brain-dead date formats...
well, sorry, but that's your fault. lobby them for better localization, do the localization yourself, or write your own software. those are your three options. i can't imagine the American software is really that awesome, though... why would you even buy it if it is made by Americans?
That it might be a DIN standard doesn't mean that it also isn't an ISO standard.
Quote:
Originally posted by Chucker
That's one of the reasons, but it's also - afaik - meant for anyone. I use it at school and teachers have yet to complain. I find it much more easier to understand.
It sort of makes sense in the larger scheme of things if you look at whole date/time formatting being in descending order:
YYYY/MM/DD HH:MM:SS
But I think for the most part this is only any use when sorting for machines that can't parse dates. Year is usually pretty irrelevant, and people want to know the "day" first rather than anything else (ie they can remember the year and the month). If you ask someone what is the date, they are likely to say "the fifth".
Quote:
Originally posted by Chucker
There was actually an extension for Mac OS Classic that hacked the Finder to do exactly that.
Yes, but only on number order, it couldn't also do dates correctly - which is what Copland was supposed to do.
For the love of god, can we get a Moderator in here. The topic is about yet another IO standard Apple is working on, that revolutionize the way we create video, It could bring on a whole new way we watch and created video. European, or American standard, I could care less, I am proud to be an american, but I prefer the metric system. But that is beside the point that this "Firewireless" standard could spring a whole new DLD device(s).
For the love of god, can we get a Moderator in here. The topic is about yet another IO standard Apple is working on, that revolutionize the way we create video, It could bring on a whole new way we watch and created video. European, or American standard, I could care less, I am proud to be an american, but I prefer the metric system. But that is beside the point that this "Firewireless" standard could spring a whole new DLD device(s).
I agree... let's get it back on topic. So, why is Firewireless taking so damn long? It was first publicized in the year 2000 (no typos, that's two thousand):
Think set theory. It is illogical to jump from month to date to year like that. How would you explain it if you had to go in that order?. Month is a superset of date that is a subset of year. But what is the relation between month and year? Not even the rest of the coalition is with you with this one.
Or try make an applescript that navigated folders like that. You would get a kernal panic or something worse.
All of this talk about who is better USA or everyone else is truly fascinating. On a more relevant note, I read this week that people working on the Internet 2 project have succesfully reached download speeds of 1gb/second. From Gemany to California, that is pretty interesting.
Think set theory. It is illogical to jump from month to date to year like that. How would you explain it if you had to go in that order?. Month is a superset of date that is a subset of year. But what is the relation between month and year? Not even the rest of the coalition is with you with this one.
Or try make an applescript that navigated folders like that. You would get a kernal panic or something worse.
Sorry dude, but your entire post returns a null set.
Why do women who are abused pursue abusive men? Why do men not ask for directions? (please excuse the stereotypes, but many people I know fall into them). Your entire argument is absurd: people don't always behave logically, or think in binary. It's easy for geeks (i.e. us) to extrapolate to the purely logical, but we're talking about the human brain here, for <insert theological representative here>'s sake.
in other words, 010011110110110000101110100010110010...
and to think we just had a good string of firewireless posts going...
Comments
Originally posted by yomofo
In general, Americans have more mental associations with a particular month than a particular day. This makes sense logically because a given month will have set holidays, weather patterns, etc. that go along with it that a person will consciously or subconsciously associate with their memories, and frame these memories around the current thought. Do you have an explanation why the day listed first is better for human associations?
Think about it... 05/2003 (hot weather, WWDC coming up, etc.) has more meaning than 9th/2003. That's the way most Americans think, anyway.
Boy, that's got to be the most ridiculous post I've read here for a long time.
My understanding is that the system arose from the American preference for saying September the 11th, as opposed to the 11th of September, similar to the way sports events are designated 'Boston at Chicago'; with the home ground listed second. The convention outside the US is of course to put the home team first. Its possible that a lot of American written conventions grew ad hoc from spoken conventions, whereas many European conventions have been handed down by standards organisations (most of them French!)
Originally posted by yomofo
Well, obviously the argument is moot if you're only talking about days within a single month. Then the month and year aren't even mentioned because they're assumed. I don't think you understood my previous post.
In general, Americans have more mental associations with a particular month than a particular day. This makes sense logically because a given month will have set holidays, weather patterns, etc. that go along with it that a person will consciously or subconsciously associate with their memories, and frame these memories around the current thought. Do you have an explanation why the day listed first is better for human associations?
Think about it... 05/2003 (hot weather, WWDC coming up, etc.) has more meaning than 9th/2003. That's the way most Americans think, anyway.
Most normal people live day by day and therefore are always thinking day by day even if they plan ahead. I can tell you I have far too much on every day and every week to be thinking or caring much about month by month calendering. If I calendar something in for next month I don't calendar it in as 06/2003 either it goes in as 15/06/2003 or 02/06/2003. The only reason you'd be month focused is because you aren't doing enough.
I'd be in trouble if I started thinking:
05/03: Meeting, Meeting, Prelim report, feedback meeting, controller submission, final report submision, day of hell.
That tells me precisely nothing about my week ahead except for the fact I have far too little time to sleep.
Edit: I believe vinney57 has the reason behind the difference right too. Still it doesn't change the fact that the day is the primary bit of information.
Originally posted by Clive
That's not a European standard, it's an ISO standard - designed not for people to read, but for computers, because no one can get them to sort dates in the right order if the data is just "string".
On a Mac note - one of the things Copland was supposed to introduce was "logical" ordering in the Finder, so that you got:
1
2
10
14
Rather than
1
10
14
2
But we have that ordering in OS X, no? At least I have (although I can't say that I'm thoroughly happy with it, it always made more sence to provide the preceding digits (01, 02, ..., 10, ...) just to be sure, and it does still, as many applications will not treat this as the finder does).
On a side note, I think the yy/mm/day is the best way to go these days, especially in light of computer use and automatic sorting (e.g. in the Finder). It's the only way to tell your computer, without it having to parse tricky date formats, that may 5th 2001 comes before january 1st 2002, or something like that. I agree with most here that the mm/dd/yy notation is utterly crap. The person who first came up with this may be shot with my permission.
Originally posted by yomofo
Think about it... 05/2003 (hot weather, WWDC coming up, etc.) has more meaning than 9th/2003. That's the way most Americans think, anyway.
You dingbat, you just disproved your own argument, because it's totally illogical to write 05/2003 (May 2003) in US notation, given that you would usually put the day next to the year!?
Also, your argument is totally spurious anyway. People are more concerned about the day of the month than the month itself. The concern is "What am I doing on the 14th", not "what am I doing in May".
Even the long date method (January 25, 2003) is not kept to, because people (in the US) routinely say "Fourth of July" etc.
Do you care that independence day is in July, or on the 4th?
You cite some nonsense about zodiac signs, but these actually cross over months, so are meaningless without knowing the date.
Originally posted by vinney57
My understanding is that the system arose from the American preference for saying September the 11th, as opposed to the 11th of September...
Actually, the "English" way of spelling out the date in longhand, ie "May 10, 2003" is the same as the US method - take a look at the top of any newspaper masthead. This method is also used in the log date display fo UK settings in the MacOS - and that's not just because we don't get a localised OS any more, it's always been like that.
Personally I think this method is archaic, and use "10 May 2003", and adjust the system settings accordingly.
It's also not true that Americans universally "say" "May 10", they're just as likely to say "10th of May" - classic example is "4th of July".
Sorry yomofo loses.
On the US use of the (English) imperial measurement system, the metric system is getting in by stealth - all machinery is built to metric standards - ie metric threads on nut/bolts etc. On the "slow" coastal road from LA to San Francisco distances are marked on some signs in km.
Originally posted by der Kopf
But we have that ordering in OS X, no?
Hey, you're right, I never noticed. But it doesn't sensibly order dates, which is what it was also supposed to do in Copland.
Obviously, within a given month, the month is irrelevant, and the day is what counts. I've stated this several times already.
I was in no way asserting where the month/day/year order came from, or that it was the best way. I merely stated that it makes the most sense to me, so I continue to use it. Maybe it's because I've structured my thoughts for so long in this fashion, and I'm addicted to my stupid American bad habits. Oh well.
The order of month/day/year only becomes important when we're talking about things on a yearly time scale. I was simply saying that I structure my thoughts more in a monthly fashion in this scenario. Most of what I do on a yearly time scale necessarily has references to other months, anyway, so I structure my thoughts accordingly.
Barto wanted an explanation as to why the month/day/year isn't confusing to Americans. I proposed why it makes sense to me, and why I continue to use it. No more, no less.
No one's asking you to change your day/month/year ordering, so just relax.
Originally posted by Barto
If I have an appointment on d/m/y 12/5/2003, the 12 is most important. Same with a letter written to me, or most other dates I have to remember. Back in the stone age, 5/12/2003 was better because seasons were more important than days. Similar to the imperial system
Barto
Conversely, if you found an old love letter from last year, you'd care it was sent in June right before you broke up, not that it was sent on the 8th.
There's more to deal with in the past than in the present, the way that I think about it. Maybe I'm "living in the past", but most things on a yearly time scale have associations to other months, and people don't care about days. That's why, like I said, year/month/day makes the most sense to me, and perhaps I'll switch to that method.
Originally posted by Clive
That's not a European standard, it's an ISO standard
German, actually. DIN 8006 or so.
designed not for people to read, but for computers, because no one can get them to sort dates in the right order if the data is just "string".
That's one of the reasons, but it's also - afaik - meant for anyone. I use it at school and teachers have yet to complain. I find it much more easier to understand.
On a Mac note - one of the things Copland was supposed to introduce was "logical" ordering in the Finder, so that you got:
1
2
10
14
Rather than
1
10
14
2
There was actually an extension for Mac OS Classic that hacked the Finder to do exactly that.
Originally posted by yomofo
No one's asking you to change your day/month/year ordering, so just relax.
Well acually that is part of the problem - we buy crappy American software that can only deal with brain-dead date formats...
Originally posted by Clive
Well acually that is part of the problem - we buy crappy American software that can only deal with brain-dead date formats...
well, sorry, but that's your fault. lobby them for better localization, do the localization yourself, or write your own software. those are your three options. i can't imagine the American software is really that awesome, though... why would you even buy it if it is made by Americans?
Originally posted by Chucker
German, actually. DIN 8006 or so.
That it might be a DIN standard doesn't mean that it also isn't an ISO standard.
Originally posted by Chucker
That's one of the reasons, but it's also - afaik - meant for anyone. I use it at school and teachers have yet to complain. I find it much more easier to understand.
It sort of makes sense in the larger scheme of things if you look at whole date/time formatting being in descending order:
YYYY/MM/DD HH:MM:SS
But I think for the most part this is only any use when sorting for machines that can't parse dates. Year is usually pretty irrelevant, and people want to know the "day" first rather than anything else (ie they can remember the year and the month). If you ask someone what is the date, they are likely to say "the fifth".
Originally posted by Chucker
There was actually an extension for Mac OS Classic that hacked the Finder to do exactly that.
Yes, but only on number order, it couldn't also do dates correctly - which is what Copland was supposed to do.
Originally posted by Lazzyass86
For the love of god, can we get a Moderator in here. The topic is about yet another IO standard Apple is working on, that revolutionize the way we create video, It could bring on a whole new way we watch and created video. European, or American standard, I could care less, I am proud to be an american, but I prefer the metric system. But that is beside the point that this "Firewireless" standard could spring a whole new DLD device(s).
I agree... let's get it back on topic. So, why is Firewireless taking so damn long? It was first publicized in the year 2000 (no typos, that's two thousand):
ARTICLE
And didn't Apple have a job posting for a wireless firewire job a couple years back?
Edit: Make that 1999!
LINK
Or try make an applescript that navigated folders like that. You would get a kernal panic or something worse.
Originally posted by Anders the White
Think set theory. It is illogical to jump from month to date to year like that. How would you explain it if you had to go in that order?. Month is a superset of date that is a subset of year. But what is the relation between month and year? Not even the rest of the coalition is with you with this one.
Or try make an applescript that navigated folders like that. You would get a kernal panic or something worse.
Sorry dude, but your entire post returns a null set.
Why do women who are abused pursue abusive men? Why do men not ask for directions? (please excuse the stereotypes, but many people I know fall into them). Your entire argument is absurd: people don't always behave logically, or think in binary. It's easy for geeks (i.e. us) to extrapolate to the purely logical, but we're talking about the human brain here, for <insert theological representative here>'s sake.
in other words, 010011110110110000101110100010110010...
and to think we just had a good string of firewireless posts going...
If someone can give me a good reason not to, I'm all ears.