Are we any better off ?
Been watching a documentary that focussed on the lifestyles of ordinary ancient Chinese, Egyptians, Greeks, & Romans.
And it seemed to me that though they might have lived shorter lives, they seemed somehow to be better off than we are.
Or am I falling for the old " Things were better in the olde days" trap.?
Has our western lifestyle improved our lot, or are we dillusional in this thinking...
What in the end constitutes a good quality life?
Longetivity, health, choice, money? what ?
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And it seemed to me that though they might have lived shorter lives, they seemed somehow to be better off than we are.
Or am I falling for the old " Things were better in the olde days" trap.?
Has our western lifestyle improved our lot, or are we dillusional in this thinking...
What in the end constitutes a good quality life?
Longetivity, health, choice, money? what ?
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Comments
Originally posted by aquafire
What in the end constitutes a good quality life?
Longetivity, health, choice, money? what ?
Sex, Good Beer, and Electric Toothbrushes
Originally posted by DiscoCow
Sex, Good Beer, and Electric Toothbrushes
Sex..Yes they had that..
Good beer. Yep....the Ancient Egyptians invented beer..
.
Electric tooth brushes..wow..
is that the sum of our improved lifestyle?
On the back of hundreds enslaved so I could be care free.
Its much better today. Now the ration is more like two persons living in powerty, starving and/or working in sweat shops, in the banana fields or in mines to support my life style.
[B]Yeah if I lived in one of those societies I would probably have a better life...
On the back of hundreds enslaved so I could be care free.
Its much better today. Now the ration is more like two persons living in powerty
What's powerty ?
It has always been & even though slavery has been outlawed, it still exists in many parts of the world & in many guises...
At least in ancient Rome a "slave " could buy their freedom...not like so much of the indentured labour of the 3-rd world.
Still my question remains, are we better off with all the increases in anxiety, stress, cancer ,heart attacks, mental illness, etc than previous societies..?
Is the lack of choice as bad as too much choice ?
Originally posted by DiscoCow
..I forgot rock music.
Funny that we call it " Rock " music as in stone age, besides which..how many tunes can you humm ditty dumm dumm dumm ?
Ps I think rock " Music " might be a Negative on the life Plus side..or at least it gives you ulcers...
Originally posted by Luca Rescigno
And digital watches!
Sheesh, you guys belong to the shallow end of the cosmic wading pool?
How does a digital watch actually improve your life..?
Originally posted by aquafire
Still my question remains, are we better off with all the increases in anxiety, stress, cancer ,heart attacks, mental illness, etc than previous societies..?
Is the lack of choice as bad as too much choice ?
I'm inclined to say that that's rather thoughtless of you. What will all the stress, heart attacks & cancer people in my country on average reach the age of 76 (men) and 81 (women). In the middle ages, the average was about 35. I don't think we're worse off from a health point of view.
Anxiety, stress and mental illness is another cookie. I don't think stress and anxiety are a monopoly of our day. Mentall illness neither, though it does surface more. Many factors, one of the more important being that it was a horrible disgrace to show signs of any of those in the olden days. Now, even people who are perfectly allright can flaunt 'trauma', 'mild schizophrenia' and myriad visits to psychiatrists, and be the more popular for it. This in the olden days would have gotten you semi-banned. I think we also have to take into account the fact that religion has ceased to be, for many of the present day folk, a source of moral strength.
In any case, I'm inclined to follow Anders and say that the olden days might have been nice, for the very small few that actually had some money, or blue blood, but face it, aquafire, you antipod with criminal ancestors, you would be working on the chain gang. So no stress you say? No stress for the archived peoples (the rich and powerful), but is it any wonder: they had legions of 'proletarians' doing all the work for them, with nothing left for themselves but trip out all day, and hang out with the noble homies. I'm actually inclined to say that the wealth (and all that comes with it) of the world has never been divided as good as it is today.
Just remember, aquafire, that most of the people around you and me would be analfabetic, syphilitic and tuberculotic daylabourers, averaging 16 hours a day of back-breaking work, leaving only 8 hours to get drunk and beat the wife.
Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go and vote leftists (the European flavour) into our government.
Originally posted by aquafire
Been watching a documentary that focussed on the lifestyles of ordinary ancient Chinese, Egyptians, Greeks, & Romans.
And it seemed to me that though they might have lived shorter lives, they seemed somehow to be better off than we are.
Or am I falling for the old " Things were better in the olde days" trap.?
Has our western lifestyle improved our lot, or are we dillusional in this thinking...
What in the end constitutes a good quality life?
Longetivity, health, choice, money? what ?
A safer, more stable, much less violent society, personal liberties incredible for people of those times (as well as for those living today under similar yokes), along with the immense improvement in material conditions, make you better off today.
However, they had closer-knit communities, and simpler, more certain ideas about life, which gave them a feel of belonging and making sense of the reality around them; which seems reassuring to many in our alienated, crowded, tense societies.
And of course, their lifestyle was often more stylish than ours, which is often a mechanist, colourless, legacy from Victorian times.
Many traveller venturing to very poor corners of the world today, often say ?hey! these people sure seem happier than me?, it's not that they're better off, but they surely get along better with their grim reality than most of us do with our good fortune.
Still my question remains, are we better off with all the increases in anxiety, stress, cancer ,heart attacks, mental illness, etc than previous societies..?
Whie they were spared some diseases which take a long life to develop, they had so many others it's not really a trade-off, and of course living in misery and precarity meant so much more anxioety and stress, and mental illness was just as common and even more painful for those afflicted with it (just observe how the mentally ill fare in present-day's less fortunate societies for a preview).
Originally posted by Anders the White
Yeah if I lived in one of those societies I would probably have a better life...
On the back of hundreds enslaved so I could be care free.
Not even the poweful were that care-free at the time.
Often you'd have to go to battle to defend your turf, or in a more mundane fashion find yuorself reduced to slavery by pirates when taking the missus on vacation to Capri or to the Greek isles, or maybe poisoned by some rival fellow powerful coveting your villa, your fertile tracts of land, and that delectable young maiden with big dark almond eyes you just purchased (one recently quashed rebellion in a far province meant such great prices you would've been stupid not to carpe Diem), or arrested and executed because your rival has better connections with the local ruler than you have.
And so much more things to worry about.
Its much better today. Now the ration is more like two persons living in powerty
What's powerty ?
(I don't know, poor-man's QWERTY?)
What's a ?ration of two persons living in poverty??
In case you're feeling guilty, well, unless you can actually trace your relatively good situation to your actually wronging somebody or two, then you can feel guilt-free and thus, I suppose, better off today.
Originally posted by der Kopf
I'm actually inclined to say that the wealth (and all that comes with it) of the world has never been divided as good as it is today.
Indeed.
While in past times, most transfers of wealth would be in one direction from the huge slaves/serfs/underclass base of a social pyramid to the idle few on its tip, and/or from the provinces (or colonies) to the metropole, along the many roads leading to it. Today, most wealth is created in the World's developed countries with a middle-class majority, and traded between these developed countries among themselves.
Actually, most of those living the poorer parts of the planet still have it better than your great-grandparents of the 19th century.
Der Kopf..have you been on a binge ?
Ho hum...it would have been nice if you actually took the time to read my thread .
Two things...
Me being an "Antipod(ean) Chain gang worker"...truly you make me laugh..
On the one hand you want to put me down with such a eponym and then you tell your going to vote leftist...
Hmmm I think I know your type of leftist..In Oz..(The country that Marx called the workers paradise)....We call guys like you "Chardonnay socialists" ..
The type who live in expensive houses, rattle their jewellery, & vote Socialist because it makes them feel good..Yet would choke on their clotted cream cakes, if a member of the working class "convict chain gang" came and married their daughter.....
Second thing..pleeze read what I actually said about stress...you big Belgium Limburg cheese you ...
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
(I don't know, poor-man's QWERTY?)
What's a ?ration of two persons living in poverty??
Today, most wealth is created in the World's developed countries with a middle-class majority, and traded between these developed countries among themselves.
Actually, most of those living the poorer parts of the planet still have it better than your great-grandparents of the 19th century. [/B]
Thanx Immanuel,
I remember when my parents (displaced european war refugees) got their first house in Oz.
It had an indoor toilet & taps with running water. I can still remember it as if it were yesterday.....they had friends coming from all over the area just to see the flushing toilet & to see the lights being switched on and off....Such was their poverty, they thought they'd come directly to paradise.....(tears)
& Yes I still love them & thank them for all their sacrifices...
Originally posted by aquafire
Thanx Immanuel,
I remember when my parents (displaced european war refugees) got their first house in Oz.
It had an indoor toilet & taps with running water. I can still remember it as if it were yesterday.....they had friends coming from all over the area just to see the flushing toilet & to see the lights being switched on and off....Such was their poverty, they thought they'd come directly to paradise.....(tears)
& Yes I still love them & thank them for all their sacrifices...
So you are fortunate to live in comfortable conditions, as well to have personal knowledge that it used to so much harder, and so to wisely appreciate the efforts of your forebears.
Originally posted by aquafire
Quote : " face it, aquafire, you antipod with criminal ancestors, you would be working on the chain gang. So no stress you say?"
Der Kopf..have you been on a binge ?
Ho hum...it would have been nice if you actually took the time to read my thread .
Two things...
Me being an "Antipod(ean) Chain gang worker"...truly you make me laugh..
On the one hand you want to put me down with such a eponym and then you tell your going to vote leftist...
Hmmm I think I know your type of leftist..In Oz..(The country that Marx called the workers paradise)....We call guys like you "Chardonnay socialists" ..
The type who live in expensive houses, rattle their jewellery, & vote Socialist because it makes them feel good..Yet would choke on their clotted cream cakes, if a member of the working class "convict chain gang" came and married their daughter.....
Second thing..pleeze read what I actually said about stress...you big Belgium Limburg cheese you ...
Hey, aquafire, blood brother of mine (
Originally posted by Luca Rescigno
And digital watches!
"Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the western spiral arm of the Galaxy lies a small unregarded yellow sun. Orbiting this at a distance of roughly ninety-two million miles is an utterly insigificant little-blue green planet whose ape-descended life forms are so amazingly primitive that they still think that digital watches are a pretty neat idea.
This planet has - or rather had - a problem, which was this: most of the people living on it were unhappy for pretty much of the time. Many suggestions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movements of small green pieces of paper, which is odd because on the whole, it wasn't the small green pieces of paper that were unhappy.
And so the problem remained; lots of people were mean, and most of them were miserable, even the ones with digital watches."
-The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy
We still miss you, Douglas Adams.
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
So you are fortunate to live in comfortable conditions, as well to have personal knowledge that it used to so much harder, and so to wisely appreciate the efforts of your forebears.
Thankyou Immanuel,
& somethimes i wish it were otherwise...My parents are pushing into their 80's now...They were both raised in very dire circumstances, so despite their brightness, really never stood a chance at life back in the old country...So the reality was migrate or die....
I am sure you know what I am talking about.
Der Kopf,
I have had more time to think about it, & believe the whole world is getting materially better. Not just bits, but the entire world in general..
Yes there are areas in dire straights, but the reality is that more people are alive today as a result of better medicine, clean water, basic sanitation & other essentials provided by advances in western science, industry & capitalism....I don't mean rampant Dickensian Capitalism either....But capitalism moderated by social welfare & other governmental infrastructure. These are the " Material / physical benefits " & they can't be denied.
On the other-hand, such advances, ( particularly in the west ) seem to have come at a social cost. with problems such as drug & alchohol abuse, despair, youth sucide, social dislocation become increasingly prevelant.
Poverty is a terrible thing, but I also appreciate, that in the past, many families survived, & even thrived in extended social families, where everyone pitched in to help each other.
I am thinking of our own traditional rural based extended family structures, and others such as Kibbutzes etc
It makes me wonder if the price of material security has been bought at the cost of individual & family alienation.
Will we ever find a compromise that gives us both
Seriously, though, it's the education thing that gets me. I can't imagine living in a time when we knew so little about how the world and the human body worked. When so few even knew what sorts of questions to ask, much less how to answer them. And when the vast, vast majority could have no interest in the questions to begin with.
Originally posted by Towel
I'd likely be dead if not for antibiotics. So I guess I'd prefer to be well-fed, educated, comfortable, and long-lived than dead.
Seriously, though, it's the education thing that gets me. I can't imagine living in a time when we knew so little about how the world and the human body worked. When so few even knew what sorts of questions to ask, much less how to answer them. And when the vast, vast majority could have no interest in the questions to begin with.
I can only hope that the world keeps on asking questions, keeps on re-inventing itself...
But that requires a solid foundation of social, political & religious tolerance....Qualities that seem to be vanishing before our very eyes.
It makes me wonder if in the future stone age, people won't look back on us and wonder if we were almost like gods... Like Walter M Miller's....
A Canticle for Lebowitz..