I do NOT believe it is anyone's fault. I'm simply saying that as a consumer, I don't like being treated like a 2nd class citizen by ANYONE, including Apple.
I'm glad you agree it's noone's fault, and that Apple can (reasonably) do nothing that would make you feel like a "1st class citizen". Isn't that what this whole "petition" thread was about?
I mean, I can understand that it feels good to bitch about things we don't like. We all do it. And it feels even better to bitch about things we feel we can't change. But if all you do is bitch, nothing will ever change to make you stop bitching. So instead of signing a petition to stop the moon from coming out, why not go start mapquest.com.au?
I'm starting to think that the fundamental source of all discord in the world is that too many people think they're powerless, and wind up convincing themselves that they prefer it that way.
Apple has to get with the times and relize that people arent all living in America. I am a US serviceman living in Korea and I cannot buy anything from the Apple Store, although my postal address is completely legit ! Any american can send me a letter or a package for no more than it costs to send mail anywhere else in America.
So I say to myself, I'll just go down to the local Korean apple dealer and buy something there, well apple products cost a whole lot more in Korea, I dont know all the reasons why and I'm sure the reseller has a healthy profit (which Im not totally opposed too), what I do know is that apple products cost about 50% more in Korea after currency and all that jazz.
If it takes Apple changing its prices based on world economic conditions, so be it, apple is supposed to be a leader in innovation after all (there is a Korean version of OS X, so there must be some interest).
Like the Russian guy said either in this thread or another sometimes it is too damn hard to buy something from apple. I personally tried very hard to upgrade to Quicktime Pro but the apple store wouldnt accept my zip code (APO AP - Armed Forces Pacific, a perfectly legitimate zip code) to verify my credit card. I ended up just downloading a password off of a warez site after half an hour of screwing around with the apple store.
I dont know who Joe/Jane consumer is but I doubt if he/she buys apple, apple customers demand a degree of professionalism that transcends borders, well at least I do anyway. This professionalism should include doing fair business with all its customers no matter where they are.
I dont know if this made any sense, Im drunk and its late.
I'm glad you agree it's noone's fault, and that Apple can (reasonably) do nothing that would make you feel like a "1st class citizen". Isn't that what this whole "petition" thread was about?
Errr.... no, Apple could do something!
They could find a printer for iPhoto albums. I know they exist becasue I have used them in the past through thrid party wes sites since Apple does not offer the service.
They could regionalise Sherlock. Fair enough, they may only be able to do that for the big European and Asian countries that have the inferstructure in place, but that would be better then nothing.
They could open Apple Stores. They have showed it works in the US so now what about trying it in the Europe or Japan?
They could have either i) held back the opening of the iTMS until they had more terratories or ii) said sorry guys, we are working on it as fast as we can and mean it, unlike the whole iPhoto printing debarcle.
They could have the same great offers. They offer far more great offers to consumer and business customers in the US than in the UK and I presume the rest of the world. 0% interest, greater student discounts, amazing developer discounts etc
They could have opened up .Mac far earlier. For over a year (correct me if I am wrong) you could only pay in dollars or yen and while international registartion was accepted, it was not made easy.
Small things I know. In some cases just saying "we are working on it". However, it would really make a difference to peoples perception of Apple outside the US...
I'm glad you agree it's noone's fault, and that Apple can (reasonably) do nothing that would make you feel like a "1st class citizen". Isn't that what this whole "petition" thread was about?
Please stop putting words into my mouth.
I do NOT believe that there is nothing Apple can do to make me feel on-par with US users. With better funding for their international branches, and better business practices by those branches, I would feel on par.
1) Apple Australia should be spending time on making all Apple products have the same functionality in the US as here
2) Better customer support (ei, you don't have to go to a 3rd party to get decent information about Apple stuff)
Then I would feel better. A partition like this lets Apple know that international users ARE pissed off, and if the want to keep/get more customers, they need to fix it. It's their choice what they do, but this is letting them know what the situation is.
Either towel is a polition or just damn right ignorant.
his replies to mine and other posts are misleading from what was actually written, as barto said STOP putting words in our mouths and twisting the argument to make YOU look clever.I also noticed you've sniipped out parts of the original message in your quotes.
Now towel what you cant comprehend, is that people have to speak out to get things changed, we dont hate the product or the country of origin which you are so clearly trying to make us out to be. No doubt this reply will be taken completey out of context and made to look anti apple by a sad single minded muppet of the name towel.
I don't mean to put words into anyone's mouth. I'm just trying to understand exactly what you think, why you're angry, because then we can talk about whether or not your anger is justified.
Quote:
Originally posted by Barto
I do NOT believe it is anyone's fault.
Quote:
I do NOT believe that there is nothing Apple can do to make me feel on-par with US users.
Can you blame me for being confused? So it's not anyone's fault, but it IS Apple's fault? OK, then can I say with authority, then, that you DO think it's Apple's fault? Since that's (I think) cleared up, should we get back to why it is or isn't Apple's fault? For example, can someone answer my frikkin' question about European and/or Asian cyberinfrastructure?
iTMS: Up to the Big5, not Apple, when (IF!!) it gets rolled out globally. Apple can't say they're "working on it" because it's not up to them. The IP questions are mind-bending, and even more important is whether the Big5 will do it at all. Remember, they wouldn't even go for a US roll-out on a Windows version and are already making noises about being unhappy with iTunes sharing. If you really think this is Apple's fault you have a clinical persecution complex.
Sherlock: Cannot reasonably be done without a strong cyberinfrastructure in place for Apple to license, and no one's made it clear that this exists anywhere outside North America.
iPhoto: How hard could it be to order albums worldwide? I'm guessing payment is the hold-up. They could always process the albums in the US and ship internationally (expensive for the consumer, but way easier than establishing relationships in every country). Like people have said, Apple's international divisions are psuedo-independent. So they would have to set something up where you paid your local Apple division, which them imported the album from Apple US. I can imagine that would get complicated.
The key point for all these things is that it would cost almost as much to set up any of these services in country X as it did to set them up in the US. Arguably more, because of the trade issues involved. Yet country X has only a tiny fraction of Apple US's Mac users. So for the same investment, Apple gets a much smaller return - and probably, for most countries, a net loss.
1) Apple Australia should be spending time on making all Apple products have the same functionality in the US as here
2) Better customer support (ei, you don't have to go to a 3rd party to get decent information about Apple stuff)
I think these are great criticisms, especially #2. I just surfed over to Apple.com.au, and it looks pretty close to Apple.com. What sort of information are you missing? #1 is also a great criticism, but not very easy to fix (see above).
Not being able to handle APO addresses is inexplicable. THAT would make a nice petition request - something they can and probably will fix if they realize enough people think it's a problem.
iTMS: Up to the Big5, not Apple, when (IF!!) it gets rolled out globally. Apple can't say they're "working on it" because it's not up to them. The IP questions are mind-bending, and even more important is whether the Big5 will do it at all. Remember, they wouldn't even go for a US roll-out on a Windows version and are already making noises about being unhappy with iTunes sharing. If you really think this is Apple's fault you have a clinical persecution complex.
Sherlock: Cannot reasonably be done without a strong cyberinfrastructure in place for Apple to license, and no one's made it clear that this exists anywhere outside North America.
iPhoto: How hard could it be to order albums worldwide? I'm guessing payment is the hold-up. They could always process the albums in the US and ship internationally (expensive for the consumer, but way easier than establishing relationships in every country). Like people have said, Apple's international divisions are psuedo-independent. So they would have to set something up where you paid your local Apple division, which them imported the album from Apple US. I can imagine that would get complicated.
iTMS - They are negotiation with Sony and BMG in the UK from what I have heard. However, it was not the fact that it was not initally rolled out, it was a massive fanfair, then "Oh, by the way, it's US only" as if it was an after thought...
Sherlock - There is definatly the infrastructure in the UK and France, and I presume in most of the rest of Europe. No excuses for Aplle on this one...
iPhoto - Errr... how about just finding printers in each country/region? There are printers in the UK who do the same thing. Again, no excuses from Apple. They just don't think it's worth their while...
Yes, I am paranoid, but that does not mean that they arn't after me...
So it's not anyone's fault, but it IS Apple's fault? OK, then can I say with authority, then, that you DO think it's Apple's fault? Since that's (I think) cleared up, should we get back to why it is or isn't Apple's fault? For example, can someone answer my frikkin' question about European and/or Asian cyberinfrastructure?
It's not anyone's fault. No-one is deliberatly treating users badly. But users in different countries have different levels of support for Apple products. That's not Apple's fault, but Apple CAN MAKE IT BETTER.
iTMS: Up to the Big5, not Apple, when (IF!!) it gets rolled out globally. Apple can't say they're "working on it" because it's not up to them. The IP questions are mind-bending, and even more important is whether the Big5 will do it at all. Remember, they wouldn't even go for a US roll-out on a Windows version and are already making noises about being unhappy with iTunes sharing. If you really think this is Apple's fault you have a clinical persecution complex.
PLEASE read my full posts. It's NOT up to the Big 5. Under copyright laws, it's up to the local distributers appointed by the Big 5, and therefore the international Apples need to deal with them. Apple Computer should give them more funding and whip them into shape. Same deal with Sherlock and iPhoto, IF YOU'D READ OTHER'S POSTS!
The key point for all these things is that it would cost almost as much to set up any of these services in country X as it did to set them up in the US. Arguably more, because of the trade issues involved. Yet country X has only a tiny fraction of Apple US's Mac users. So for the same investment, Apple gets a much smaller return - and probably, for most countries, a net loss.
AGAIN those are possibly valid reasons for Apple NOT doing what I and others have stated above. HOWEVER Apple not getting international users treated equally is NOT without consequence. NOTHING will stop people being upset about it while this inequality exists.
1) Internation users arn't treated equally
2) No-one is "at fault"
3) Apple can change the situation
4) There may be business reasons why they don't
5) Regardless, int'l consumers will feel upset while inequality exists
6) This will result in more customers leaving/less joining the platform
I just want to point out something that might be of interest here. Here in Iceland, a 12" powerbook is $2800 U.S.. The same computer in the U.S. is $1799. You might say that this is yet another example of Apple ripping off its international customers. Well, there is no Apple store in Iceland. It is independently run. Apple won't come to Iceland because its not a big enough market.
So maybe, just maybe, you guys are lucky to have Apple stores in your countries, because the prices would probably be even higher if they weren't.
Just my two cents.
P.S. Not that I'm siding with Towel, but I'm just as confused as he is about what you guys are trying to say. One minute Apple is to blame, the next minute, the're not.
5) Regardless, int'l consumers will feel upset while inequality exists
6) This will result in more customers leaving/less joining the platform
7) Introducing... a partition!
Fair enough. Some inequality will always exist, though. This goes back to the "Apple is a US company" thing. Things are just easier, faster, and often cheaper to do in the US than elsewhere, so there will always at least be a lag time for international users. There can't possibly ever be perfect equality. Unless, I guess, trade were 100%, really, truly transparent, which isn't too likely to happen anytime in the near future. (4) is thus the key. Unless you can help change the underlying economics for Apple, petitions aren't going to do much good. Or, alternatively, you can encourage Apple to move away from a closed-source, single-vendor business model so that local companies can move in to do localization for them. But convincing Steve Jobs of that is even less likely than convincing the anti-globalization crowd to support free trade.
I think, long-term, the solution will be a move away from Apple (and Microsoft). A handful of governments are already starting to put money into local Linux development, to reduce dependence on US vendors. This is sorta reminiscent of the entertainment business. Not so long ago, US shows were prime-time popular around the world, right? But people started to demand more locally relevant content. A few US networks (MTV, CNN, others) have tried to answer by making independent foreign divisions in several countries. But mostly the result was a huge upsurge of locally owned and produced content, around the world. And that's really how it should be. The way for Apple to take advantage of this is to move to a more distributed business model, but that's still a ways off.
While in some international markets, Apple has a bigger share of desktop sales than in the USA, the home market is still the lion's share of the comany's profits.
Early on however, Macs have often been more favourable to ?furrynur? users than the competition, and I am told that MacOS X easily lends itself to localisation.
So while Apple could perhaps do better when it comes to offering local-language editions of its main software, and some decent service and prices would be nice too, it's not reasonable to expect worldwide the same levels of availability of the various Apple online services offered to US-based costumers.
Should the international sales account for a larger share of Apple's profit, it'd soon be more actively seek to match said avalaibility.
If international sales ever become the major source of Apple's revenue, I suppose US-based users would then feel neglected.
As for Russia, there's certainly a market there for expensive software titles and other costly items (as can indeed be indicated by the number of new Benzes on Moscovite streets), but given the ease with which non-legitimate business can be conducted there, the incentive to sell legit copies of MacOS X or Maya is rather low.
Should the international sales account for a larger share of Apple's profit, it'd soon be more actively seek to match said avalaibility.
If international sales ever become the major source of Apple's revenue, I suppose US-based users would then feel neglected.
I am not sure what the breakdown is, but I am sure that Europe makes up over 30% of revenue. If international sales were of the order of a few percent, then fine. However, they are not. I am sure someone knows a rough breakdown, but I would hazard a guess at over a third of revenue being international. Is that not enough to justify it?
I just want to point out something that might be of interest here. Here in Iceland, a 12" powerbook is $2800 U.S.. The same computer in the U.S. is $1799. You might say that this is yet another example of Apple ripping off its international customers. Well, there is no Apple store in Iceland. It is independently run. Apple won't come to Iceland because its not a big enough market.
So maybe, just maybe, you guys are lucky to have Apple stores in your countries, because the prices would probably be even higher if they weren't.
Just my two cents.
P.S. Not that I'm siding with Towel, but I'm just as confused as he is about what you guys are trying to say. One minute Apple is to blame, the next minute, the're not.
Cheers
just have to chime in on this one viking, but everything is expensive in iceland apart from the free heating.
I am not sure what the breakdown is, but I am sure that Europe makes up over 30% of revenue. If international sales were of the order of a few percent, then fine. However, they are not. I am sure someone knows a rough breakdown, but I would hazard a guess at over a third of revenue being international. Is that not enough to justify it?
But you still have the single, monolithic US market accounting for (say) half the revenue, and the two dozen to three dozen European markets collectively accounting for a third. EU or no, you can't treat Europe as a monolithic whole for localization purposes, right? You don't all speak Yurropianese, and are there still bilateral differences wrt US trade? So each market is just a few percent, and keeping them all up to speed with the at-least-ten-times-bigger US market is an expensive proposition. But one, which, as people have said, Apple doesn't do too badly at. It's not US vs. world, it's US vs. dozens of other markets. In many ways, I think European countries have it easier - selling to all the EU countries from within the EU is easier than doing it from outside, and when you look beyond the EU, you have this single massive market you can aim for.
But you still have the single, monolithic US market accounting for (say) half the revenue, and the two dozen to three dozen European markets collectively accounting for a third. EU or no, you can't treat Europe as a monolithic whole for localization purposes, right? You don't all speak Yurropianese, and are there still bilateral differences wrt US trade? So each market is just a few percent, and keeping them all up to speed with the at-least-ten-times-bigger US market is an expensive proposition. But one, which, as people have said, Apple doesn't do too badly at. It's not US vs. world, it's US vs. dozens of other markets. In many ways, I think European countries have it easier - selling to all the EU countries from within the EU is easier than doing it from outside, and when you look beyond the EU, you have this single massive market you can aim for.
Well if bush dropped his tit for tat stance on oversees trading bollox things would be easier im sure. But as it stands and more to the piont of this argument, getting the likes of sherlock and other bundled into OSX software that uses localisation stuff like cinemas, flights, maps blah blah blah for us europeans, aussies doesnt take half of apples cash to develop. for the purpose of towels education europe has a vast cyberinfarstructure just like the states and has everything in place for some simple coding on apples behalf. Asfar as itunes music store goes well i can understand this is down to the record industry and not apple, but as for the rest of it, it most certainly doesnt take all that cash on behalf of apple for this argument to decease.
Some good news! Apple announced today that its first overseas Apple Store, in Tokyo, will open in early 2004. Of the 20 stores Apple says it will open in the next 12 months, it only names locations for three: Chicago, SF, and Tokyo. I hope London, Paris, and Sydney are among the other 17.
Comments
Originally posted by Barto
I do NOT believe it is anyone's fault. I'm simply saying that as a consumer, I don't like being treated like a 2nd class citizen by ANYONE, including Apple.
I'm glad you agree it's noone's fault, and that Apple can (reasonably) do nothing that would make you feel like a "1st class citizen". Isn't that what this whole "petition" thread was about?
I mean, I can understand that it feels good to bitch about things we don't like. We all do it. And it feels even better to bitch about things we feel we can't change. But if all you do is bitch, nothing will ever change to make you stop bitching. So instead of signing a petition to stop the moon from coming out, why not go start mapquest.com.au?
I'm starting to think that the fundamental source of all discord in the world is that too many people think they're powerless, and wind up convincing themselves that they prefer it that way.
So I say to myself, I'll just go down to the local Korean apple dealer and buy something there, well apple products cost a whole lot more in Korea, I dont know all the reasons why and I'm sure the reseller has a healthy profit (which Im not totally opposed too), what I do know is that apple products cost about 50% more in Korea after currency and all that jazz.
If it takes Apple changing its prices based on world economic conditions, so be it, apple is supposed to be a leader in innovation after all (there is a Korean version of OS X, so there must be some interest).
Like the Russian guy said either in this thread or another sometimes it is too damn hard to buy something from apple. I personally tried very hard to upgrade to Quicktime Pro but the apple store wouldnt accept my zip code (APO AP - Armed Forces Pacific, a perfectly legitimate zip code) to verify my credit card. I ended up just downloading a password off of a warez site after half an hour of screwing around with the apple store.
I dont know who Joe/Jane consumer is but I doubt if he/she buys apple, apple customers demand a degree of professionalism that transcends borders, well at least I do anyway. This professionalism should include doing fair business with all its customers no matter where they are.
I dont know if this made any sense, Im drunk and its late.
Originally posted by Towel
I'm glad you agree it's noone's fault, and that Apple can (reasonably) do nothing that would make you feel like a "1st class citizen". Isn't that what this whole "petition" thread was about?
Errr.... no, Apple could do something!
They could find a printer for iPhoto albums. I know they exist becasue I have used them in the past through thrid party wes sites since Apple does not offer the service.
They could regionalise Sherlock. Fair enough, they may only be able to do that for the big European and Asian countries that have the inferstructure in place, but that would be better then nothing.
They could open Apple Stores. They have showed it works in the US so now what about trying it in the Europe or Japan?
They could have either i) held back the opening of the iTMS until they had more terratories or ii) said sorry guys, we are working on it as fast as we can and mean it, unlike the whole iPhoto printing debarcle.
They could have the same great offers. They offer far more great offers to consumer and business customers in the US than in the UK and I presume the rest of the world. 0% interest, greater student discounts, amazing developer discounts etc
They could have opened up .Mac far earlier. For over a year (correct me if I am wrong) you could only pay in dollars or yen and while international registartion was accepted, it was not made easy.
Small things I know. In some cases just saying "we are working on it". However, it would really make a difference to peoples perception of Apple outside the US...
Originally posted by Towel
I'm glad you agree it's noone's fault, and that Apple can (reasonably) do nothing that would make you feel like a "1st class citizen". Isn't that what this whole "petition" thread was about?
Please stop putting words into my mouth.
I do NOT believe that there is nothing Apple can do to make me feel on-par with US users. With better funding for their international branches, and better business practices by those branches, I would feel on par.
1) Apple Australia should be spending time on making all Apple products have the same functionality in the US as here
2) Better customer support (ei, you don't have to go to a 3rd party to get decent information about Apple stuff)
Then I would feel better. A partition like this lets Apple know that international users ARE pissed off, and if the want to keep/get more customers, they need to fix it. It's their choice what they do, but this is letting them know what the situation is.
Barto
his replies to mine and other posts are misleading from what was actually written, as barto said STOP putting words in our mouths and twisting the argument to make YOU look clever.I also noticed you've sniipped out parts of the original message in your quotes.
Now towel what you cant comprehend, is that people have to speak out to get things changed, we dont hate the product or the country of origin which you are so clearly trying to make us out to be. No doubt this reply will be taken completey out of context and made to look anti apple by a sad single minded muppet of the name towel.
Originally posted by Barto
I do NOT believe it is anyone's fault.
I do NOT believe that there is nothing Apple can do to make me feel on-par with US users.
Can you blame me for being confused? So it's not anyone's fault, but it IS Apple's fault? OK, then can I say with authority, then, that you DO think it's Apple's fault? Since that's (I think) cleared up, should we get back to why it is or isn't Apple's fault? For example, can someone answer my frikkin' question about European and/or Asian cyberinfrastructure?
iTMS: Up to the Big5, not Apple, when (IF!!) it gets rolled out globally. Apple can't say they're "working on it" because it's not up to them. The IP questions are mind-bending, and even more important is whether the Big5 will do it at all. Remember, they wouldn't even go for a US roll-out on a Windows version and are already making noises about being unhappy with iTunes sharing. If you really think this is Apple's fault you have a clinical persecution complex.
Sherlock: Cannot reasonably be done without a strong cyberinfrastructure in place for Apple to license, and no one's made it clear that this exists anywhere outside North America.
iPhoto: How hard could it be to order albums worldwide? I'm guessing payment is the hold-up. They could always process the albums in the US and ship internationally (expensive for the consumer, but way easier than establishing relationships in every country). Like people have said, Apple's international divisions are psuedo-independent. So they would have to set something up where you paid your local Apple division, which them imported the album from Apple US. I can imagine that would get complicated.
The key point for all these things is that it would cost almost as much to set up any of these services in country X as it did to set them up in the US. Arguably more, because of the trade issues involved. Yet country X has only a tiny fraction of Apple US's Mac users. So for the same investment, Apple gets a much smaller return - and probably, for most countries, a net loss.
Originally posted by Barto
1) Apple Australia should be spending time on making all Apple products have the same functionality in the US as here
2) Better customer support (ei, you don't have to go to a 3rd party to get decent information about Apple stuff)
I think these are great criticisms, especially #2. I just surfed over to Apple.com.au, and it looks pretty close to Apple.com. What sort of information are you missing? #1 is also a great criticism, but not very easy to fix (see above).
Not being able to handle APO addresses is inexplicable. THAT would make a nice petition request - something they can and probably will fix if they realize enough people think it's a problem.
Originally posted by Towel
iTMS: Up to the Big5, not Apple, when (IF!!) it gets rolled out globally. Apple can't say they're "working on it" because it's not up to them. The IP questions are mind-bending, and even more important is whether the Big5 will do it at all. Remember, they wouldn't even go for a US roll-out on a Windows version and are already making noises about being unhappy with iTunes sharing. If you really think this is Apple's fault you have a clinical persecution complex.
Sherlock: Cannot reasonably be done without a strong cyberinfrastructure in place for Apple to license, and no one's made it clear that this exists anywhere outside North America.
iPhoto: How hard could it be to order albums worldwide? I'm guessing payment is the hold-up. They could always process the albums in the US and ship internationally (expensive for the consumer, but way easier than establishing relationships in every country). Like people have said, Apple's international divisions are psuedo-independent. So they would have to set something up where you paid your local Apple division, which them imported the album from Apple US. I can imagine that would get complicated.
iTMS - They are negotiation with Sony and BMG in the UK from what I have heard. However, it was not the fact that it was not initally rolled out, it was a massive fanfair, then "Oh, by the way, it's US only" as if it was an after thought...
Sherlock - There is definatly the infrastructure in the UK and France, and I presume in most of the rest of Europe. No excuses for Aplle on this one...
iPhoto - Errr... how about just finding printers in each country/region? There are printers in the UK who do the same thing. Again, no excuses from Apple. They just don't think it's worth their while...
Yes, I am paranoid, but that does not mean that they arn't after me...
So it's not anyone's fault, but it IS Apple's fault? OK, then can I say with authority, then, that you DO think it's Apple's fault? Since that's (I think) cleared up, should we get back to why it is or isn't Apple's fault? For example, can someone answer my frikkin' question about European and/or Asian cyberinfrastructure?
It's not anyone's fault. No-one is deliberatly treating users badly. But users in different countries have different levels of support for Apple products. That's not Apple's fault, but Apple CAN MAKE IT BETTER.
iTMS: Up to the Big5, not Apple, when (IF!!) it gets rolled out globally. Apple can't say they're "working on it" because it's not up to them. The IP questions are mind-bending, and even more important is whether the Big5 will do it at all. Remember, they wouldn't even go for a US roll-out on a Windows version and are already making noises about being unhappy with iTunes sharing. If you really think this is Apple's fault you have a clinical persecution complex.
PLEASE read my full posts. It's NOT up to the Big 5. Under copyright laws, it's up to the local distributers appointed by the Big 5, and therefore the international Apples need to deal with them. Apple Computer should give them more funding and whip them into shape. Same deal with Sherlock and iPhoto, IF YOU'D READ OTHER'S POSTS!
The key point for all these things is that it would cost almost as much to set up any of these services in country X as it did to set them up in the US. Arguably more, because of the trade issues involved. Yet country X has only a tiny fraction of Apple US's Mac users. So for the same investment, Apple gets a much smaller return - and probably, for most countries, a net loss.
AGAIN those are possibly valid reasons for Apple NOT doing what I and others have stated above. HOWEVER Apple not getting international users treated equally is NOT without consequence. NOTHING will stop people being upset about it while this inequality exists.
1) Internation users arn't treated equally
2) No-one is "at fault"
3) Apple can change the situation
4) There may be business reasons why they don't
5) Regardless, int'l consumers will feel upset while inequality exists
6) This will result in more customers leaving/less joining the platform
7) Introducing... a partition!
Barto
So maybe, just maybe, you guys are lucky to have Apple stores in your countries, because the prices would probably be even higher if they weren't.
Just my two cents.
P.S. Not that I'm siding with Towel, but I'm just as confused as he is about what you guys are trying to say. One minute Apple is to blame, the next minute, the're not.
Cheers
Originally posted by Barto
1) Internation users arn't treated equally
2) No-one is "at fault"
3) Apple can change the situation
4) There may be business reasons why they don't
5) Regardless, int'l consumers will feel upset while inequality exists
6) This will result in more customers leaving/less joining the platform
7) Introducing... a partition!
Fair enough. Some inequality will always exist, though. This goes back to the "Apple is a US company" thing. Things are just easier, faster, and often cheaper to do in the US than elsewhere, so there will always at least be a lag time for international users. There can't possibly ever be perfect equality. Unless, I guess, trade were 100%, really, truly transparent, which isn't too likely to happen anytime in the near future. (4) is thus the key. Unless you can help change the underlying economics for Apple, petitions aren't going to do much good. Or, alternatively, you can encourage Apple to move away from a closed-source, single-vendor business model so that local companies can move in to do localization for them. But convincing Steve Jobs of that is even less likely than convincing the anti-globalization crowd to support free trade.
I think, long-term, the solution will be a move away from Apple (and Microsoft). A handful of governments are already starting to put money into local Linux development, to reduce dependence on US vendors. This is sorta reminiscent of the entertainment business. Not so long ago, US shows were prime-time popular around the world, right? But people started to demand more locally relevant content. A few US networks (MTV, CNN, others) have tried to answer by making independent foreign divisions in several countries. But mostly the result was a huge upsurge of locally owned and produced content, around the world. And that's really how it should be. The way for Apple to take advantage of this is to move to a more distributed business model, but that's still a ways off.
Early on however, Macs have often been more favourable to ?furrynur? users than the competition, and I am told that MacOS X easily lends itself to localisation.
So while Apple could perhaps do better when it comes to offering local-language editions of its main software, and some decent service and prices would be nice too, it's not reasonable to expect worldwide the same levels of availability of the various Apple online services offered to US-based costumers.
Should the international sales account for a larger share of Apple's profit, it'd soon be more actively seek to match said avalaibility.
If international sales ever become the major source of Apple's revenue, I suppose US-based users would then feel neglected.
As for Russia, there's certainly a market there for expensive software titles and other costly items (as can indeed be indicated by the number of new Benzes on Moscovite streets), but given the ease with which non-legitimate business can be conducted there, the incentive to sell legit copies of MacOS X or Maya is rather low.
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
Should the international sales account for a larger share of Apple's profit, it'd soon be more actively seek to match said avalaibility.
If international sales ever become the major source of Apple's revenue, I suppose US-based users would then feel neglected.
I am not sure what the breakdown is, but I am sure that Europe makes up over 30% of revenue. If international sales were of the order of a few percent, then fine. However, they are not. I am sure someone knows a rough breakdown, but I would hazard a guess at over a third of revenue being international. Is that not enough to justify it?
Originally posted by viking
I just want to point out something that might be of interest here. Here in Iceland, a 12" powerbook is $2800 U.S.. The same computer in the U.S. is $1799. You might say that this is yet another example of Apple ripping off its international customers. Well, there is no Apple store in Iceland. It is independently run. Apple won't come to Iceland because its not a big enough market.
So maybe, just maybe, you guys are lucky to have Apple stores in your countries, because the prices would probably be even higher if they weren't.
Just my two cents.
P.S. Not that I'm siding with Towel, but I'm just as confused as he is about what you guys are trying to say. One minute Apple is to blame, the next minute, the're not.
Cheers
just have to chime in on this one viking, but everything is expensive in iceland apart from the free heating.
Originally posted by cybermonkey
just have to chime in on this one viking, but everything is expensive in iceland apart from the free heating.
Yeah, I guess (hoping no one would know that.) But being surrounded by the worlds' most beautiful chicks makes me forget all about the price of Mac's.
P.S. The heat is expensive too.
Originally posted by Matt FT
I am not sure what the breakdown is, but I am sure that Europe makes up over 30% of revenue. If international sales were of the order of a few percent, then fine. However, they are not. I am sure someone knows a rough breakdown, but I would hazard a guess at over a third of revenue being international. Is that not enough to justify it?
But you still have the single, monolithic US market accounting for (say) half the revenue, and the two dozen to three dozen European markets collectively accounting for a third. EU or no, you can't treat Europe as a monolithic whole for localization purposes, right? You don't all speak Yurropianese, and are there still bilateral differences wrt US trade? So each market is just a few percent, and keeping them all up to speed with the at-least-ten-times-bigger US market is an expensive proposition. But one, which, as people have said, Apple doesn't do too badly at. It's not US vs. world, it's US vs. dozens of other markets. In many ways, I think European countries have it easier - selling to all the EU countries from within the EU is easier than doing it from outside, and when you look beyond the EU, you have this single massive market you can aim for.
Originally posted by Towel
But you still have the single, monolithic US market accounting for (say) half the revenue, and the two dozen to three dozen European markets collectively accounting for a third. EU or no, you can't treat Europe as a monolithic whole for localization purposes, right? You don't all speak Yurropianese, and are there still bilateral differences wrt US trade? So each market is just a few percent, and keeping them all up to speed with the at-least-ten-times-bigger US market is an expensive proposition. But one, which, as people have said, Apple doesn't do too badly at. It's not US vs. world, it's US vs. dozens of other markets. In many ways, I think European countries have it easier - selling to all the EU countries from within the EU is easier than doing it from outside, and when you look beyond the EU, you have this single massive market you can aim for.
Well if bush dropped his tit for tat stance on oversees trading bollox things would be easier im sure. But as it stands and more to the piont of this argument, getting the likes of sherlock and other bundled into OSX software that uses localisation stuff like cinemas, flights, maps blah blah blah for us europeans, aussies doesnt take half of apples cash to develop. for the purpose of towels education europe has a vast cyberinfarstructure just like the states and has everything in place for some simple coding on apples behalf. Asfar as itunes music store goes well i can understand this is down to the record industry and not apple, but as for the rest of it, it most certainly doesnt take all that cash on behalf of apple for this argument to decease.