I don't know their specs (and neither do any of you because I'm sure it's mostly classified) but I am reasonably certain those bunker-busters *must* use some kind of spent Uranium or other extremely dense material in order to produce the results that they do.
The A-10 for example was originally designed to use spent Uranium rounds in its massive Vulcan cannon? Why? Because the rounds could pierce 3 ft. of concrete (I think that's the right number). Now ask yourself what kind of material would have to be used to send a free-falling (i.e. much lower velocity than the shell from an A-10) bomb through 20 feet of solid earth -- or more. As the scientist said, use your common sense. I think it's pretty obvious that ordinary metals are not going to allow a bomb to penetrate that much earth. This all seems pretty academic to me.
That said, I don't think the Bush Administration is running some kind of evil nuclear weapons conspiracy under the guise of TWOT ...
(aka: The War On Terror )
...However I don't doubt for a second that Bush knows he pretty much has carte blanche to test whatever new non-WOMD weapons he wants (you know...the kind you can't hide when you detonate them). And I don't doubt that he would test them on these new battlefield engagements either. Whether or not that is ethical depends a lot on weather the weapons scientists know from their modeling / simulations whether local populations will be adversely affected after the fact.
I don't know their specs (and neither do any of you because I'm sure it's mostly classified) but I am reasonably certain those bunker-busters *must* use some kind of spent Uranium or other extremely dense material in order to produce the results that they do.
If they or the Vulcan rounds are creating light up kidneys then it's a problem.
As for the tech used in the bunker busters, I thought it was a two stage bomb. The bomb is dropped and when it reaches the ground (or a few feet above) the first munition blows up thrusting the nose forward at ungodly speeds through the earth. After a prescribed amount of time that nose then explodes on its own. This doesn't precluded the use of DU though.
Yes, there could well be DU to burrow, but it's air-fed ignition is what creates the huge blast. Basically incinerates the atmosphere. Not a lot of material is thrown around in that sort of blast, IIRC, but it's a plausible idea that this burnt-off uranium round stuff does get pushed out with the blast. Of course, then you have to ask where was this stuff used? I would think the folk near Tora-Bora would have a hell of a different prognosis than others around the country.
The source (BBC) is a fairly conservative, UK government subsidized/policed news service...not exactly the bullsh¡t "gutter-press" like the Weekly Norld News, National Enquirer or Fox.
Although I am one of the few people who agree with you most of the time, I should point out the BBC is not funded by the UK government and is not policed by it ... hell no to the latter as it means they can piss off the incumbent government. It is publically funded by a kind of mandatory subscription.
Yeah, those kinds of diagrams that we see and hear about all the time are oversimplified I suspect. There is plenty about those bombs we might not know / understand but either way I don't see how the terminal velocity of such a bomb would be drastically different than that of any LGB dropped from similar altitudes. Therefore I think it is the materials the bomb is made of / contains that might explain their effectiveness in burrowing into deep hardened targets like say a mountain cave.
Yeah, those kinds of diagrams that we see and hear about all the time are oversimplified I suspect. There is plenty about those bombs we might not know / understand but either way I don't see how the terminal velocity of such a bomb would be drastically different than that of any LGB dropped from similar altitudes. Therefore I think it is the materials the bomb is made of / contains that might explain their effectiveness in burrowing into deep hardened targets like say a mountain cave.
Maybe, but I beleive that the first ones used in GW I were what they said---at any rate---4000lbs at couple hundred miles and hour is ONE HELL of alot of kinetic energy. Terminal velocity for the human body is about 70ish mph--I'll be those babies get going much faster, and then there's the forward motion of the plane to consider/angle of relaease as well.
<begin thinking out loud>
On the DU thing, I think at high pressures the DU burns--melting into the tank's armor, which is why they use that material.
I think.
I could be thinking about another weapon, but that is the technology behind some weapons---a heavy casing that impacts the target with a central component of a different material that goes even further, that is melting the armor and itself along the way---the occupants of the tank can be sucked through the exit hole if I remember correctly.
On the DU thing, I think at high pressures the DU burns--melting into the tank's armor, which is why they use that material.
I think.
My simple understanding of it is that the DU heavy metal heats up quickly under the pressure of hitting the armor (which may also be made of DU apparently) and melts the steel or other armor it hits, then ignites the oxygen in the immediate area when it heats up, like a match. I don't know exactly what happens to the DU after that, but I thought that once it's lit, the chemical reaction changes its composition, like sulfur on a spent match. That's probably a simplistic understanding, and it's surely not so efficient at the chemical change process if that's what really happens.
If they or the Vulcan rounds are creating light up kidneys then it's a problem.
Let's come back to earth a little bit. If someone was radiologically hot enough to glow they would have to have 10's x 1000's of times more radiation in them than the old style glowing radium watch dials. They would be medium-well cooked within the hour and unable to pee to give a sample in the first place.
Yeah, those kinds of diagrams that we see and hear about all the time are oversimplified I suspect. There is plenty about those bombs we might not know / understand but either way I don't see how the terminal velocity of such a bomb would be drastically different than that of any LGB dropped from similar altitudes. Therefore I think it is the materials the bomb is made of / contains that might explain their effectiveness in burrowing into deep hardened targets like say a mountain cave.
Nope these babies are old fashioned simple. Pretty much the howitzer tube analogy. Just a simple, robust fuse designed to wait a bit.
Terminal velocity isn't radically higher, but kinetic energy applied per square cm of front plate penetrator is drastically higher.
On the DU thing, I think at high pressures the DU burns--melting into the tank's armor, which is why they use that material.
I think.
I could be thinking about another weapon, but that is the technology behind some weapons---a heavy casing that impacts the target with a central component of a different material that goes even further, that is melting the armor and itself along the way---the occupants of the tank can be sucked through the exit hole if I remember correctly.
</end thinking out loud>
Nope, you are thinking about shaped charge anti-armor warheads like TOW or Hellfire. The second part of what you describe is called a hyper-velocity kinetic round. They only exist in research lab and scientific papers right now. The kinetic energy of a Mach 6+ impact would instantaneously fragment and melt the targets armor which is not only metal but also ceramic. Then the melting projectile injects itself into the target spraying hot heavy metal bb's every which way. No explosive necessary fo this one.
30mm rounds literally destroy the target armor by giving it an old fashioned blunt force beating. It is also shot into a target from an angle the armor isn't designed to protect against, so the required energy to penetrate is not great. Then the rest of the armor keeps all the shrapnel and bouncing rounds inside until the fuel or ordnance is set off finishing the job.
Although I am one of the few people who agree with you most of the time, I should point out the BBC is not funded by the UK government and is not policed by it ... hell no to the latter as it means they can piss off the incumbent government. It is publically funded by a kind of mandatory subscription.
Thank you for the correction! I always thought that the BBC was a publicly-funded broadcast organization...actually it is in a way...but via an annual television license paid for by any household that owns a TV set...as opposed to directly via the taxpayers. My mistake!
I guess the doubled mass, in conjunction with the narrow tube shape might be enough on its own. But I still wouldn't doubt the use of DU or something similar. Hell, the intended consequence might be to *spread* DU dust into the cave or structure that is being penetrated, in order to ensure any surviving "kayda" cave-rats are unable to stay under ground. Maybe that's why Bin Laden looked like a ghost after those first few weeks of the bombing in Afghanistan....low grade radiation poisoning?
Maybe. One thing I was thinking was maybe some of these folk were Taliban in those places like the caves near Tora Bora. Or maybe they went looting in the caves afterwards. I'm not saying it explains it all, but it's a possible explanation for some of it.
The whole DU scare is nothing more than anti-american assholes dreaming up a disaster to slam the US. SJO is the lead anti-american hate-monger here at AI spreading her lies about DU. Ignorance is bliss when you're a anti-US bigot.
Comments
Originally posted by bunge
I think the glow-in-the-dark piss is considered by some to be one bit of evidence.
That just means Phish or the Dead played the hemisphere recently.
The A-10 for example was originally designed to use spent Uranium rounds in its massive Vulcan cannon? Why? Because the rounds could pierce 3 ft. of concrete (I think that's the right number). Now ask yourself what kind of material would have to be used to send a free-falling (i.e. much lower velocity than the shell from an A-10) bomb through 20 feet of solid earth -- or more. As the scientist said, use your common sense. I think it's pretty obvious that ordinary metals are not going to allow a bomb to penetrate that much earth. This all seems pretty academic to me.
That said, I don't think the Bush Administration is running some kind of evil nuclear weapons conspiracy under the guise of TWOT ...
(aka: The War On Terror )
...However I don't doubt for a second that Bush knows he pretty much has carte blanche to test whatever new non-WOMD weapons he wants (you know...the kind you can't hide when you detonate them). And I don't doubt that he would test them on these new battlefield engagements either. Whether or not that is ethical depends a lot on weather the weapons scientists know from their modeling / simulations whether local populations will be adversely affected after the fact.
Originally posted by Moogs
I don't know their specs (and neither do any of you because I'm sure it's mostly classified) but I am reasonably certain those bunker-busters *must* use some kind of spent Uranium or other extremely dense material in order to produce the results that they do.
If they or the Vulcan rounds are creating light up kidneys then it's a problem.
As for the tech used in the bunker busters, I thought it was a two stage bomb. The bomb is dropped and when it reaches the ground (or a few feet above) the first munition blows up thrusting the nose forward at ungodly speeds through the earth. After a prescribed amount of time that nose then explodes on its own. This doesn't precluded the use of DU though.
Originally posted by sammi jo
The source (BBC) is a fairly conservative, UK government subsidized/policed news service...not exactly the bullsh¡t "gutter-press" like the Weekly Norld News, National Enquirer or Fox.
Although I am one of the few people who agree with you most of the time, I should point out the BBC is not funded by the UK government and is not policed by it ... hell no to the latter as it means they can piss off the incumbent government. It is publically funded by a kind of mandatory subscription.
Originally posted by Moogs
Yeah, those kinds of diagrams that we see and hear about all the time are oversimplified I suspect. There is plenty about those bombs we might not know / understand but either way I don't see how the terminal velocity of such a bomb would be drastically different than that of any LGB dropped from similar altitudes. Therefore I think it is the materials the bomb is made of / contains that might explain their effectiveness in burrowing into deep hardened targets like say a mountain cave.
Maybe, but I beleive that the first ones used in GW I were what they said---at any rate---4000lbs at couple hundred miles and hour is ONE HELL of alot of kinetic energy. Terminal velocity for the human body is about 70ish mph--I'll be those babies get going much faster, and then there's the forward motion of the plane to consider/angle of relaease as well.
<begin thinking out loud>
On the DU thing, I think at high pressures the DU burns--melting into the tank's armor, which is why they use that material.
I think.
I could be thinking about another weapon, but that is the technology behind some weapons---a heavy casing that impacts the target with a central component of a different material that goes even further, that is melting the armor and itself along the way---the occupants of the tank can be sucked through the exit hole if I remember correctly.
</end thinking out loud>
Like Miniature Pinschers:
awwwww!
Originally posted by ena
<begin thinking out loud>
On the DU thing, I think at high pressures the DU burns--melting into the tank's armor, which is why they use that material.
I think.
My simple understanding of it is that the DU heavy metal heats up quickly under the pressure of hitting the armor (which may also be made of DU apparently) and melts the steel or other armor it hits, then ignites the oxygen in the immediate area when it heats up, like a match. I don't know exactly what happens to the DU after that, but I thought that once it's lit, the chemical reaction changes its composition, like sulfur on a spent match. That's probably a simplistic understanding, and it's surely not so efficient at the chemical change process if that's what really happens.
Originally posted by bunge
If they or the Vulcan rounds are creating light up kidneys then it's a problem.
Let's come back to earth a little bit. If someone was radiologically hot enough to glow they would have to have 10's x 1000's of times more radiation in them than the old style glowing radium watch dials. They would be medium-well cooked within the hour and unable to pee to give a sample in the first place.
Originally posted by Moogs
Yeah, those kinds of diagrams that we see and hear about all the time are oversimplified I suspect. There is plenty about those bombs we might not know / understand but either way I don't see how the terminal velocity of such a bomb would be drastically different than that of any LGB dropped from similar altitudes. Therefore I think it is the materials the bomb is made of / contains that might explain their effectiveness in burrowing into deep hardened targets like say a mountain cave.
Nope these babies are old fashioned simple. Pretty much the howitzer tube analogy. Just a simple, robust fuse designed to wait a bit.
Terminal velocity isn't radically higher, but kinetic energy applied per square cm of front plate penetrator is drastically higher.
Originally posted by ena
<begin thinking out loud>
On the DU thing, I think at high pressures the DU burns--melting into the tank's armor, which is why they use that material.
I think.
I could be thinking about another weapon, but that is the technology behind some weapons---a heavy casing that impacts the target with a central component of a different material that goes even further, that is melting the armor and itself along the way---the occupants of the tank can be sucked through the exit hole if I remember correctly.
</end thinking out loud>
Nope, you are thinking about shaped charge anti-armor warheads like TOW or Hellfire. The second part of what you describe is called a hyper-velocity kinetic round. They only exist in research lab and scientific papers right now. The kinetic energy of a Mach 6+ impact would instantaneously fragment and melt the targets armor which is not only metal but also ceramic. Then the melting projectile injects itself into the target spraying hot heavy metal bb's every which way. No explosive necessary fo this one.
30mm rounds literally destroy the target armor by giving it an old fashioned blunt force beating. It is also shot into a target from an angle the armor isn't designed to protect against, so the required energy to penetrate is not great. Then the rest of the armor keeps all the shrapnel and bouncing rounds inside until the fuel or ordnance is set off finishing the job.
Originally posted by AirSluf
Let's come back to earth a little bit.
When someone mentions 'glow-in-the-dark piss', it's a joke. A metaphor.
Originally posted by bunge
When someone mentions 'glow-in-the-dark piss', it's a joke. A metaphor.
That's why I mentioned Phish earlier. Your following comment kind of missed the humor/sarcasm mark though without a smiley or <sarcasm> tag.
It looked like you were actually serious. Deadpan deliveries do that.
Originally posted by AirSluf
Deadpan deliveries do that.
Too much Steven Wright as a child.
Originally posted by Harald
Although I am one of the few people who agree with you most of the time, I should point out the BBC is not funded by the UK government and is not policed by it ... hell no to the latter as it means they can piss off the incumbent government. It is publically funded by a kind of mandatory subscription.
Thank you for the correction! I always thought that the BBC was a publicly-funded broadcast organization...actually it is in a way...but via an annual television license paid for by any household that owns a TV set...as opposed to directly via the taxpayers. My mistake!
***** back to the scheduled programming *****