i am among those mother-fsckers? i refused to get vaccines. so after i was 10, the only ones i have got were those i could not get around for getting in and around south america and europe. so among my few school memories there was the nurse trying to convince me to get those damned vaccines and my mother freaking out because she believed everything they said.
I respect the advice of a ten years kids, if the question is does he want to have a plastic surgery of the ears for example. But i will not respect his advice if he refuse vaccination. At ten years i think you do not have all the elements to judge if a vaccination is necessary.
Chickenpox? Quite frankly it's better to get exposed and have a life-long immunity than bet the house that you don't get it in adulthood.
Hep-B is a venereal disease. I'm not quite sure WHY you would need to do that either.
1. Your immunity to chickenpox, as I mentioned, eventually fades, but the immunity you get from a vaccine is comparable to that you get from the disease. Getting the vaccine does not mean "betting the house you don't get it in adulthood". In fact, since you can't control when or IF you get exposed as a child (I didn't get it until 15), NOT getting the vaccine might be construed as "betting the house you don't get it in adulthood".
2. HBV can be transmitted by any bodily fluids, and is rather more robust than HIV outside the body. That mean the risk of getting HBV from casual contact with, say, a used razor is orders of magnitude higher than for HIV. The risk of transmission from a needle stick is also several orders of magnitude greater than for HIV. Given that, and given that THERE IS NO CURE OR TREATMENT for HBV, the prudent course is to vaccinate. HBV kills. It's the single greatest cause of liver failure in the world. And every single one of those millions of ultimatey fatal cases was preventable. There's no good reason not to do it early, because if you do it too late you're shit outta luck.
Hey Powerdoc. Where do you practice, and what is your specialty?
I am a plastic surgeon and i practice in the center of France. My wife is a general practicionner, and we discuss medecine often. It help me to stay in contact with general medecine.
Ena - So, um, what shots do you recommend we skip?
It's true that half of the medical literature changes every ten years. What might be a good idea today might not be such a good idea ten years from now. But, fortunately, when it comes to public health, it isn't up to the lay person to decide what measures one will and will not abide by.
And when did this turn into Doc's having a superiority complex? Is that a chip I see?
PS - Towel: Couldn't have stated point A any better myself...
Couldn't resist...
"The question is, "Do I have a God complex?" Which makes me wonder if this...lawyer, has any idea as to the kind of grades one must receive in college, to be accepted to a top medical school? Or if you have the vaguest clue about how talented someone must be to lead a surgical team? I have an M.D. from Harvard. I am board certified in cardiothorasic medicine and trauma surgery. I have been awarded citations from seven different medical boards in New England and I am never, ever sick at sea. So I ask you; when someone goes into that chapel and they fall on their knees and they pray to God that their wife doesn't miscarry or that their daughter doesn't bleed to death or that their mother doesn't suffer acute neural trauma from postoperative shock, who do you think they're praying to? Now you go ahead and read your bible-Dennis --and you go to your church and with any luck you might even win the annual raffle. But if you're looking for God, he was in operating room number two, on November 17, and he doesn't like being second guessed. You want to know if I have a God complex? Let me tell you something--I AM GOD"
....good points, but mine is that there seems to be some debate on the need for any and all of the "shots" that aleopathy tells us we need.
Just turn off the Fangorn Flamethrowers---the facts, I dare say, would suffice.
Q: What is the difference between God and a doctor?
A: God doesn't think he's a doctor.
Well i must suffer of amnesia and must be in denial with myself. I don't remember to be a god , and worse i don't believe in it ... perhaps i am only an insane moderator ....
Concerning aleopathy, i have only founded word this word. Medecine is pragmatic, if something work we use it. Allopathia seems to refer of a form of "scientist religion" opposed to homeopathia wich appear more cool. I deny the world allopathia, if something work and it's proven i will use it.
There is only one medecine, allopathia is a false concept. Medecine use : mechanics, biochemistry, radiations, ultrasound, psychologia, massages, reeducation, magnetic fields, positrons ...
In others ways natural medecine are more based upon dogma than others things. Phytoterapia is a joke, we use plants for medications since millenium. Modern medecine just allow to have only the good product in the good quantitie.
Natural medecine have sucess, because the human relation is more predominant. They take more care of the spiritual or psychological point of vue of illness.
Many docs are not fantastic, with psychologia. These aspect of thing explain why alternative medecine looks more human and more friendly for many peoples.
Huh? I'm for freedom. Freedom to let your 6 month old break its ribs coughing because you're too stupid to get a shot for it.
You should do a least a little research (and not make assumptions about what I am saying and what you THINK I am saying).
The Pertussis, or Whopping Cough as it is commonly called, vaccine is administered in the DTP vaccine. The P part was controversial and "risky" enough that the vaccine has been reformulated with "acellular" Pertussis (the DTPa shot).
The point of this thread is to exchange information to make wise decisions.
And I am not a hippie (regardless of what Ena says )
1. Your immunity to chickenpox, as I mentioned, eventually fades, but the immunity you get from a vaccine is comparable to that you get from the disease. Getting the vaccine does not mean "betting the house you don't get it in adulthood". In fact, since you can't control when or IF you get exposed as a child (I didn't get it until 15), NOT getting the vaccine might be construed as "betting the house you don't get it in adulthood".
2. HBV can be transmitted by any bodily fluids, and is rather more robust than HIV outside the body. That mean the risk of getting HBV from casual contact with, say, a used razor is orders of magnitude higher than for HIV. The risk of transmission from a needle stick is also several orders of magnitude greater than for HIV. Given that, and given that THERE IS NO CURE OR TREATMENT for HBV, the prudent course is to vaccinate. HBV kills. It's the single greatest cause of liver failure in the world. And every single one of those millions of ultimatey fatal cases was preventable. There's no good reason not to do it early, because if you do it too late you're shit outta luck.
1) The immunity from the vaccine has not been established, which is a BIG BIG problem with the vaccine. You vaccinate a child so that he doesn't get chicken pox as a child but when his is an adult, the immunization could wear off (it "permanance" has not been established) and he ends up in the hospital (chicken pox is a danger to adults but not children--go figure), Adults are notorious for NOT getting booster shots. Second, the figures I have seen for the failure rate of the chicken pox vaccine range from 30 to 70 percent. In the local outbreak where my children contracted chicken pox, I think it was 10 children who were exposed, including the little girl whose outbreak of shingles started the whole thing. Three of the children had already had chicken pox and were clearly immune--no chicken pox. Two of the children had received the immunization and one of them came down with chicken pox (a 50 percent fail rate). The four children who had neither the shot nor a previous case came down with chicken pox. I am more comfortable with the fact that when MY children are adults and are exposed to chicken pox, they will be fine. The child with the vaccine and no outbreak, he has no such assurance.
Now, the occurence of shingles in the elderly is indeed an issue, but not one that the vaccine prevents. There is no proof that t someone who has been vaccinated still won't get shingles in old age. The vaccine hasn't be around that long.
2) I don't have Hep B.
I don't make my decisions rashly nor without consulting medical professionals. NOR have I stated within this thread which shots I do and don't give my children (with the clear exception of chicken pox) NOR when I give them.
Well i must suffer of amnesia and must be in denial with myself. I don't remember to be a god , and worse i don't believe in it ... perhaps i am only an insane moderator ....
Easy, guys, it was joke. A Ukrainian once told me that a joke is only funny if it's half true.
Laugh DAMMIT!!
Someone I know just lost his Grandmother to Parkinsons on Friday---the Nurses were "on the case" and new that she "was going down" and told him so about a week before it happened.
The doc on the the case told the family at that time it would be---she wasn't even eating at the time--- "six months to a year". Just stupid.
[B]1) The immunity from the vaccine has not been established, which is a BIG BIG problem with the vaccine. You vaccinate a child so that he doesn't get chicken pox as a child but when his is an adult, the immunization could wear off (it "permanance" has not been established) and he ends up in the hospital (chicken pox is a danger to adults but not children--go figure), Adults are notorious for NOT getting booster shots. Second, the figures I have seen for the failure rate of the chicken pox vaccine range from 30 to percent. In the local outbreak where my children contracted chicken pox, I think it was 10 children who were exposed, including the little girl whose outbreak of shingles started the whole thing. Three of the children had already had chicken pox and were clearly immune--no chicken pox. Two of the children had received the immunization and one of them came down with chicken pox (a 50 percent fail rate). The four children who had neither the shot nor a previous case came down with chicken pox. I am more comfortable with the fact that when MY children are adults and are exposed to chicken pox, they will be fine. The child with the vaccine and no outbreak, he has no such assurance. 70
Just a few more notes of interest about chickenpox. Prior to routine administration of this vaccine, roughly 100 kids died in the US each year of complications arising from varicella. More importantly, however...if a female is pregnant and contracts chickenpox for the first time, and the chickenpox spread to her lungs, there is a 25% mortality rate. I don't recall how many soon-to-be mothers died annualy of this complication. As far as the failure rate you site, Fangorn (30-70%), I think these numbers are rather high. Regardless, the number of infants who die of chickenpox has approached zero with the administration of this vaccine. Oh, one more thing, you're right - immunity wears off as you enter adulthood, and boosters should be recommended soon (the logistics of this will be a nightmare).
Occasionally, the CDC does make mistakes when recommending vaccinations. In the late 90s a rotavirus vaccine (this virus leads to gastroenteritis and kills 500,000 kids worldwide each year) was ok'd by the CDC. A small subset of children who received this vaccine developed a complication that blocked their small intestine. This observation was purely correlational, but the vaccine was immediately pulled from the market. Again, the real losers here are the children in developing countries who were never given access to this vaccine. It's an ethical question, of sorts. The vaccine had the potential to save half a million lives, but it was estimated that 3000 kids would develop life threatening complications. So, to vaccinate, or not? Well, they decided to pull the drug. That's 4 million kids, and counting...
I am a plastic surgeon and i practice in the center of France. My wife is a general practicionner, and we discuss medecine often. It help me to stay in contact with general medecine.
i'm not sure i'd like you as my plastic surgeon, "medecine"
Just a few more notes of interest about chickenpox. Prior to routine administration of this vaccine, roughly 100 kids died in the US each year of complications arising from varicella. More importantly, however...if a female is pregnant and contracts chickenpox for the first time, and the chickenpox spread to her lungs, there is a 25% mortality rate. I don't recall how many soon-to-be mothers died annualy of this complication. As far as the failure rate you site, Fangorn (30-70%), I think these numbers are rather high. Regardless, the number of infants who die of chickenpox has approached zero with the administration of this vaccine. Oh, one more thing, you're right - immunity wears off as you enter adulthood, and boosters should be recommended soon (the logistics of this will be a nightmare).
Occasionally, the CDC does make mistakes when recommending vaccinations. In the late 90s a rotavirus vaccine (this virus leads to gastroenteritis and kills 500,000 kids worldwide each year) was ok'd by the CDC. A small subset of children who received this vaccine developed a complication that blocked their small intestine. This observation was purely correlational, but the vaccine was immediately pulled from the market. Again, the real losers here are the children in developing countries who were never given access to this vaccine. It's an ethical question, of sorts. The vaccine had the potential to save half a million lives, but it was estimated that 3000 kids would develop life threatening complications. So, to vaccinate, or not? Well, they decided to pull the drug. That's 4 million kids, and counting... [/B]
1) The fact is you are taking a group who are at a small risk of complications and putting them at a HUGE risk. Let me say one more time the lasting effect of the chickenpox vaccine has not be proven and adults are notorious for NOT GETTING BOOSTERS. There is a small, small chance that a child with chickenpox will even need to go the doctor. An adult will end up in the hospital. It simply does not make sense to me.
2) What the heck does the immunzation of my children in good old USA have to do with Third World children?! Nowhere have I even romotely advocated abollishing immunuizations. I do, however, strongly advocate thinking for yourself and doing some research before blindly letting your child be injected with . . . well, you get the point. Right?!
I started this thread in hopes that people would come forth with different perspectives and INFORMATION to back it up. With the exception of PowerDoc, who has been quite helpful, most of what I have seen is hyperbole, hysterics, and haughtiness (couldn't resist).
I am not advocating any particular set of shots or time schedule (well, except for chickenpox, which I think is goofy at best). My early reply to BRussell was simply to make the point that following "standard medical guidelines" is neither as simple nor as safe as it sounds.
There was a good article in the ... must have been the Chicago Trib ... about a year ago about the dumb ass mother ****ers that don't get their kids vaccinated. Let your children suffer and die for you pseudo-scientific neo-hippy anti-corporate bullshit. See if I care.
wow, there's a first for everything. i actually agree with something scott says...
the lasting effect of the chickenpox vaccine has not be proven?
A large recent study (Pediatr Infect Dis J 2002 Jun;21(6):555-61) found that six years after vaccination 98-100% of children still had antibodies. Obviously we'll need to wait until those kids grow up to be sure, but based on our knowledge of how immunity works, it's very likely that adult immunity will be similar or superior to that from the disease.
Incidentally, the reason why boosters are required is that your memory immune cells need to see their antigen every now and then to stay alive. Which makes perfect sense biologically - why waste the effort to maintain cells to fight something you never see? Many diseases for which we vaccinate are no longer circulating in the US, and so to keep those memory cells going for decades, you need boosters. "Natural" immunity works by precisely the same mechanism as vaccine-induced immunity, and so declines in just the same way if your body never again sees the disease.
Actually, if you want to trade anecdotes, I'm living proof that the disease is not nearly as good for immunity as you think. I had chicken pox twice - once as a small child, and once at age 15. I hope that the second bout was enough to give me long-lasting immunity, but there are certainly no guarantees.
Anyway, it's silly to trade anecdotes and half-truths. Go to PubMed and look up the latest literature yourself. You can view most abstracts for free. Another recent study (J Infect Dis. 2002 Jul 1;186(1):102-5) looked a largish outbreak in PA that included some break-through cases in immunized children. They concluded that immunization may be more effective if you wait until the child is 14 months old. If that result holds up, it might be advice worth taking.
Comments
Originally posted by Giaguara
i am among those mother-fsckers? i refused to get vaccines. so after i was 10, the only ones i have got were those i could not get around for getting in and around south america and europe. so among my few school memories there was the nurse trying to convince me to get those damned vaccines and my mother freaking out because she believed everything they said.
I respect the advice of a ten years kids, if the question is does he want to have a plastic surgery of the ears for example. But i will not respect his advice if he refuse vaccination. At ten years i think you do not have all the elements to judge if a vaccination is necessary.
Originally posted by Towel
Powerdoc: I think you got chicken pox and smallpox confused. Something probably gets lost in the translation.
You are right, this is a translation mistake. I am going to edit my post. Thanks.
Originally posted by ena
Chickenpox? Quite frankly it's better to get exposed and have a life-long immunity than bet the house that you don't get it in adulthood.
Hep-B is a venereal disease. I'm not quite sure WHY
1. Your immunity to chickenpox, as I mentioned, eventually fades, but the immunity you get from a vaccine is comparable to that you get from the disease. Getting the vaccine does not mean "betting the house you don't get it in adulthood". In fact, since you can't control when or IF you get exposed as a child (I didn't get it until 15), NOT getting the vaccine might be construed as "betting the house you don't get it in adulthood".
2. HBV can be transmitted by any bodily fluids, and is rather more robust than HIV outside the body. That mean the risk of getting HBV from casual contact with, say, a used razor is orders of magnitude higher than for HIV. The risk of transmission from a needle stick is also several orders of magnitude greater than for HIV. Given that, and given that THERE IS NO CURE OR TREATMENT for HBV, the prudent course is to vaccinate. HBV kills. It's the single greatest cause of liver failure in the world. And every single one of those millions of ultimatey fatal cases was preventable. There's no good reason not to do it early, because if you do it too late you're shit outta luck.
Originally posted by MilesWho
Hey Powerdoc. Where do you practice, and what is your specialty?
I am a plastic surgeon and i practice in the center of France. My wife is a general practicionner, and we discuss medecine often. It help me to stay in contact with general medecine.
Originally posted by Towel
1. Your immunity to chickenpox, as....
2. HBV can be transmitted by any bodily fluids.....
....good points, but mine is that there seems to be some debate on the need for any and all of the "shots" that aleopathy tells us we need.
Just turn off the Fangorn Flamethrowers---the facts, I dare say, would suffice.
Q: What is the difference between God and a doctor?
A: God doesn't think he's a doctor.
It's true that half of the medical literature changes every ten years. What might be a good idea today might not be such a good idea ten years from now. But, fortunately, when it comes to public health, it isn't up to the lay person to decide what measures one will and will not abide by.
And when did this turn into Doc's having a superiority complex? Is that a chip I see?
PS - Towel: Couldn't have stated point A any better myself...
Couldn't resist...
"The question is, "Do I have a God complex?" Which makes me wonder if this...lawyer, has any idea as to the kind of grades one must receive in college, to be accepted to a top medical school? Or if you have the vaguest clue about how talented someone must be to lead a surgical team? I have an M.D. from Harvard. I am board certified in cardiothorasic medicine and trauma surgery. I have been awarded citations from seven different medical boards in New England and I am never, ever sick at sea. So I ask you; when someone goes into that chapel and they fall on their knees and they pray to God that their wife doesn't miscarry or that their daughter doesn't bleed to death or that their mother doesn't suffer acute neural trauma from postoperative shock, who do you think they're praying to? Now you go ahead and read your bible-Dennis --and you go to your church and with any luck you might even win the annual raffle. But if you're looking for God, he was in operating room number two, on November 17, and he doesn't like being second guessed. You want to know if I have a God complex? Let me tell you something--I AM GOD"
- Alec Baldwin, Malice
Originally posted by ena
....good points, but mine is that there seems to be some debate on the need for any and all of the "shots" that aleopathy tells us we need.
Just turn off the Fangorn Flamethrowers---the facts, I dare say, would suffice.
Q: What is the difference between God and a doctor?
A: God doesn't think he's a doctor.
Well i must suffer of amnesia and must be in denial with myself. I don't remember to be a god , and worse i don't believe in it ... perhaps i am only an insane moderator ....
Concerning aleopathy, i have only founded word this word. Medecine is pragmatic, if something work we use it. Allopathia seems to refer of a form of "scientist religion" opposed to homeopathia wich appear more cool. I deny the world allopathia, if something work and it's proven i will use it.
There is only one medecine, allopathia is a false concept. Medecine use : mechanics, biochemistry, radiations, ultrasound, psychologia, massages, reeducation, magnetic fields, positrons ...
In others ways natural medecine are more based upon dogma than others things. Phytoterapia is a joke, we use plants for medications since millenium. Modern medecine just allow to have only the good product in the good quantitie.
Natural medecine have sucess, because the human relation is more predominant. They take more care of the spiritual or psychological point of vue of illness.
Many docs are not fantastic, with psychologia. These aspect of thing explain why alternative medecine looks more human and more friendly for many peoples.
Originally posted by Scott
Huh? I'm for freedom. Freedom to let your 6 month old break its ribs coughing because you're too stupid to get a shot for it.
You should do a least a little research (and not make assumptions about what I am saying and what you THINK I am saying).
The Pertussis, or Whopping Cough as it is commonly called, vaccine is administered in the DTP vaccine. The P part was controversial and "risky" enough that the vaccine has been reformulated with "acellular" Pertussis (the DTPa shot).
The point of this thread is to exchange information to make wise decisions.
And I am not a hippie (regardless of what Ena says
TB is on a massive comeback in the US. (is there a vaccine for it?)
Originally posted by Towel
1. Your immunity to chickenpox, as I mentioned, eventually fades, but the immunity you get from a vaccine is comparable to that you get from the disease. Getting the vaccine does not mean "betting the house you don't get it in adulthood". In fact, since you can't control when or IF you get exposed as a child (I didn't get it until 15), NOT getting the vaccine might be construed as "betting the house you don't get it in adulthood".
2. HBV can be transmitted by any bodily fluids, and is rather more robust than HIV outside the body. That mean the risk of getting HBV from casual contact with, say, a used razor is orders of magnitude higher than for HIV. The risk of transmission from a needle stick is also several orders of magnitude greater than for HIV. Given that, and given that THERE IS NO CURE OR TREATMENT for HBV, the prudent course is to vaccinate. HBV kills. It's the single greatest cause of liver failure in the world. And every single one of those millions of ultimatey fatal cases was preventable. There's no good reason not to do it early, because if you do it too late you're shit outta luck.
1) The immunity from the vaccine has not been established, which is a BIG BIG problem with the vaccine. You vaccinate a child so that he doesn't get chicken pox as a child but when his is an adult, the immunization could wear off (it "permanance" has not been established) and he ends up in the hospital (chicken pox is a danger to adults but not children--go figure), Adults are notorious for NOT getting booster shots. Second, the figures I have seen for the failure rate of the chicken pox vaccine range from 30 to 70 percent. In the local outbreak where my children contracted chicken pox, I think it was 10 children who were exposed, including the little girl whose outbreak of shingles started the whole thing. Three of the children had already had chicken pox and were clearly immune--no chicken pox. Two of the children had received the immunization and one of them came down with chicken pox (a 50 percent fail rate). The four children who had neither the shot nor a previous case came down with chicken pox. I am more comfortable with the fact that when MY children are adults and are exposed to chicken pox, they will be fine. The child with the vaccine and no outbreak, he has no such assurance.
Now, the occurence of shingles in the elderly is indeed an issue, but not one that the vaccine prevents. There is no proof that t someone who has been vaccinated still won't get shingles in old age. The vaccine hasn't be around that long.
2) I don't have Hep B.
I don't make my decisions rashly nor without consulting medical professionals. NOR have I stated within this thread which shots I do and don't give my children (with the clear exception of chicken pox) NOR when I give them.
Originally posted by MilesWho
Funny, but where did Fangorn disappear to?
Took my kids on a picnic. I spend too much time in front of this darn computer as it is.
Originally posted by Powerdoc
Well i must suffer of amnesia and must be in denial with myself. I don't remember to be a god , and worse i don't believe in it ... perhaps i am only an insane moderator ....
Easy, guys, it was joke. A Ukrainian once told me that a joke is only funny if it's half true.
Laugh DAMMIT!!
Someone I know just lost his Grandmother to Parkinsons on Friday---the Nurses were "on the case" and new that she "was going down" and told him so about a week before it happened.
The doc on the the case told the family at that time it would be---she wasn't even eating at the time--- "six months to a year". Just stupid.
[B]1) The immunity from the vaccine has not been established, which is a BIG BIG problem with the vaccine. You vaccinate a child so that he doesn't get chicken pox as a child but when his is an adult, the immunization could wear off (it "permanance" has not been established) and he ends up in the hospital (chicken pox is a danger to adults but not children--go figure), Adults are notorious for NOT getting booster shots. Second, the figures I have seen for the failure rate of the chicken pox vaccine range from 30 to percent. In the local outbreak where my children contracted chicken pox, I think it was 10 children who were exposed, including the little girl whose outbreak of shingles started the whole thing. Three of the children had already had chicken pox and were clearly immune--no chicken pox. Two of the children had received the immunization and one of them came down with chicken pox (a 50 percent fail rate). The four children who had neither the shot nor a previous case came down with chicken pox. I am more comfortable with the fact that when MY children are adults and are exposed to chicken pox, they will be fine. The child with the vaccine and no outbreak, he has no such assurance. 70
Just a few more notes of interest about chickenpox. Prior to routine administration of this vaccine, roughly 100 kids died in the US each year of complications arising from varicella. More importantly, however...if a female is pregnant and contracts chickenpox for the first time, and the chickenpox spread to her lungs, there is a 25% mortality rate. I don't recall how many soon-to-be mothers died annualy of this complication. As far as the failure rate you site, Fangorn (30-70%), I think these numbers are rather high. Regardless, the number of infants who die of chickenpox has approached zero with the administration of this vaccine. Oh, one more thing, you're right - immunity wears off as you enter adulthood, and boosters should be recommended soon (the logistics of this will be a nightmare).
Occasionally, the CDC does make mistakes when recommending vaccinations. In the late 90s a rotavirus vaccine (this virus leads to gastroenteritis and kills 500,000 kids worldwide each year) was ok'd by the CDC. A small subset of children who received this vaccine developed a complication that blocked their small intestine. This observation was purely correlational, but the vaccine was immediately pulled from the market. Again, the real losers here are the children in developing countries who were never given access to this vaccine. It's an ethical question, of sorts. The vaccine had the potential to save half a million lives, but it was estimated that 3000 kids would develop life threatening complications. So, to vaccinate, or not? Well, they decided to pull the drug. That's 4 million kids, and counting...
Originally posted by Powerdoc
I am a plastic surgeon and i practice in the center of France. My wife is a general practicionner, and we discuss medecine often. It help me to stay in contact with general medecine.
i'm not sure i'd like you as my plastic surgeon, "medecine"
Originally posted by burningwheel
i'm not sure i'd like you as my plastic surgeon, "medecine"
OK medicine, medecine is the french word. When two words in two foreigns languages are very near, we tend to make mistakes
Originally posted by MilesWho
Just a few more notes of interest about chickenpox. Prior to routine administration of this vaccine, roughly 100 kids died in the US each year of complications arising from varicella. More importantly, however...if a female is pregnant and contracts chickenpox for the first time, and the chickenpox spread to her lungs, there is a 25% mortality rate. I don't recall how many soon-to-be mothers died annualy of this complication. As far as the failure rate you site, Fangorn (30-70%), I think these numbers are rather high. Regardless, the number of infants who die of chickenpox has approached zero with the administration of this vaccine. Oh, one more thing, you're right - immunity wears off as you enter adulthood, and boosters should be recommended soon (the logistics of this will be a nightmare).
Occasionally, the CDC does make mistakes when recommending vaccinations. In the late 90s a rotavirus vaccine (this virus leads to gastroenteritis and kills 500,000 kids worldwide each year) was ok'd by the CDC. A small subset of children who received this vaccine developed a complication that blocked their small intestine. This observation was purely correlational, but the vaccine was immediately pulled from the market. Again, the real losers here are the children in developing countries who were never given access to this vaccine. It's an ethical question, of sorts. The vaccine had the potential to save half a million lives, but it was estimated that 3000 kids would develop life threatening complications. So, to vaccinate, or not? Well, they decided to pull the drug. That's 4 million kids, and counting... [/B]
1) The fact is you are taking a group who are at a small risk of complications and putting them at a HUGE risk. Let me say one more time the lasting effect of the chickenpox vaccine has not be proven and adults are notorious for NOT GETTING BOOSTERS. There is a small, small chance that a child with chickenpox will even need to go the doctor. An adult will end up in the hospital. It simply does not make sense to me.
2) What the heck does the immunzation of my children in good old USA have to do with Third World children?! Nowhere have I even romotely advocated abollishing immunuizations. I do, however, strongly advocate thinking for yourself and doing some research before blindly letting your child be injected with . . . well, you get the point. Right?!
I started this thread in hopes that people would come forth with different perspectives and INFORMATION to back it up. With the exception of PowerDoc, who has been quite helpful, most of what I have seen is hyperbole, hysterics, and haughtiness (couldn't resist).
I am not advocating any particular set of shots or time schedule (well, except for chickenpox, which I think is goofy at best). My early reply to BRussell was simply to make the point that following "standard medical guidelines" is neither as simple nor as safe as it sounds.
I also have a small pox scar. Do you?
Originally posted by Scott
There was a good article in the ... must have been the Chicago Trib ... about a year ago about the dumb ass mother ****ers that don't get their kids vaccinated. Let your children suffer and die for you pseudo-scientific neo-hippy anti-corporate bullshit. See if I care.
wow, there's a first for everything. i actually agree with something scott says...
Originally posted by Fangorn
the lasting effect of the chickenpox vaccine has not be proven?
A large recent study (Pediatr Infect Dis J 2002 Jun;21(6):555-61) found that six years after vaccination 98-100% of children still had antibodies. Obviously we'll need to wait until those kids grow up to be sure, but based on our knowledge of how immunity works, it's very likely that adult immunity will be similar or superior to that from the disease.
Incidentally, the reason why boosters are required is that your memory immune cells need to see their antigen every now and then to stay alive. Which makes perfect sense biologically - why waste the effort to maintain cells to fight something you never see? Many diseases for which we vaccinate are no longer circulating in the US, and so to keep those memory cells going for decades, you need boosters. "Natural" immunity works by precisely the same mechanism as vaccine-induced immunity, and so declines in just the same way if your body never again sees the disease.
Actually, if you want to trade anecdotes, I'm living proof that the disease is not nearly as good for immunity as you think. I had chicken pox twice - once as a small child, and once at age 15. I hope that the second bout was enough to give me long-lasting immunity, but there are certainly no guarantees.
Anyway, it's silly to trade anecdotes and half-truths. Go to PubMed and look up the latest literature yourself. You can view most abstracts for free. Another recent study (J Infect Dis. 2002 Jul 1;186(1):102-5) looked a largish outbreak in PA that included some break-through cases in immunized children. They concluded that immunization may be more effective if you wait until the child is 14 months old. If that result holds up, it might be advice worth taking.