she most definitely should be allowed to wear the veil. the only mark i think that could go against her, is if driving is inherently against islam or something. but even then i think she has the right to pick and choose which parts of the religion she obeys.
Quote:
Congress* shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
veil. there was her previous name as well = she converted herself to islam later (than she was born) = she was not born muslem. if she was, she would have sewd the schools etc already before for the same thing. how come the "real" muslems haven't done this before? what states would allow women to wear burqas on the passport or drivers licence photo?
she most definitely should be allowed to wear the veil. the only mark i think that could go against her, is if driving is inherently against islam or something. but even then i think she has the right to pick and choose which parts of the religion she obeys.
*States are now also bound by this amendment.
"Freeman, a convert to Islam previously known as Sandra Kellar, wore her veil for the photo on the Florida driver's license she obtained after moving to the state in 2001."
And what if my whatever religion would prohibit ALL the photographs? Insert a drawing to the passport?
Besides, why did she get the drivers licence in 2001? Didn't they check the photos before giving it to her?
And what if my whatever religion would prohibit ALL the photographs? Insert a drawing to the passport?
Then the government should make some kind of special arrangements to ensure that you get an id, and don't have to forsake your god to do it.
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
I'd like to see the passages in the Koran that state she can't take her veil off for a driver's license picture.
Quote:
Freeman claims her religious beliefs require her to keep her head and face covered out of modesty and that her faith prohibits her face from being photographed.
I dont think it should even matter if they find it in the Koran. She believes it is against her god and her religion, and the government should not able to ignore a person's religious beliefs like that. A government should bend to its people.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
sorry, but to me this falls under the same restrictions as not being able to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theatre.
there are some exceptions.
don't want your photo on a driver's license, don't drive.
I dont think it should even matter if they find it in the Koran. She believes it is against her god and her religion, and the government should not able to ignore a person's religious beliefs like that. A government should bend to its people.
all you believe are your "religional beliefs" aren't a proof that theyu are not unsainity or mental illness. i think if she thinks having a photo for the DL is agaisnt her religion, so should be the driving. that's what men are for, right?
is she going to have to take off her veil when they pull her over in her car?
The answer is no. It is her constitutional right to follow whatever religion she chooses and forcing her to reveal her face is against her religion. Her drivers liscense should look like she would when she is pulled over, in veil and all.
The case shows the current problem with our licenses. They should be palm or finger print based (maybe retinal).
There are obvious problems with the enforcement of laws when she demands to where her veil at all times, but that is a problem with the laws and not her.
I think it's up to her to make the sacrifice, here. If she can't get a driver's license because her religion keeps her from removing her veil for the picture, well then, no driving for her.
My religion precludes the use of (evil) money. The government must allow me to pay my taxes with chickens. \
sorry, but to me this falls under the same restrictions as not being able to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theatre.
there are some exceptions.
don't want your photo on a driver's license, don't drive.
this is not the same as 'Fire!' at all. with that outburst, it is unprovoked and causes an unnecessary panic and can very easily lead to people getting hurt. This is a matter of a person wishing to use a common service of the government and maintain her religion. Her religion denies her the ability to reveal herself for photographs. Its not an unreasonable part of the religion. I think ids should be made to take this into account. i fail to see how it is anyway like causing a panic where none was warranted. if, on the other hand, you are saying they are alike in that both are exclusions, then i think we should put a little more meat behind that argument first.
Quote:
Originally posted by Giaguara
all you believe are your "religional beliefs" aren't a proof that theyu are not unsainity or mental illness. i think if she thinks having a photo for the DL is agaisnt her religion, so should be the driving. that's what men are for, right?
well, from an atheist's perspective, all religious beliefs seem a little cooky to me. but i think free people have the right in a free country to freely believe in what they want, and to reasonably follow those beliefs. if an insane person can pass a driver's test, and doesn't want to be photographed, then the state should make a license without a picture for him.
they should be required to remove the veil for any id papers that require a photograph. I agree that this country is free and religiously diverse, but there are some things that you simply have to do. You HAVE to have a picture of your FACE if you want any form of id. A black piece of cloth will not work. If you want to move here to be free, then by all means do so, however, dont bitch about the tiny shit cuz you dont like it
if, on the other hand, you are saying they are alike in that both are exclusions, then i think we should put a little more meat behind that argument first.
yeah, just used that as an example of free speech restrictions, in contrast to the amendment. similarly, there are a ton of restrictions on religion. if your religion involves human sacrifice, you're S.O.L. there are a variety of practices that just can't happen due to health and safety concerns.
yeah, just used that as an example of free speech restrictions, in contrast to the amendment. similarly, there are a ton of restrictions on religion. if your religion involves human sacrifice, you're S.O.L. there are a variety of practices that just can't happen due to health and safety concerns.
to me this is one of them.
well, with this license, its not like she or anyone else would be in immediate or foreseeable danger. she'll probably just have a long ass wait everytime she gets a ticket, while the pigs try to id her. its not like the picture causes any damage in itself. i can't see any health or safety concerns related.
they should be required to remove the veil for any id papers that require a photograph. I agree that this country is free and religiously diverse, but there are some things that you simply have to do. You HAVE to have a picture of your FACE if you want any form of id. A black piece of cloth will not work. If you want to move here to be free, then by all means do so, however, dont bitch about the tiny shit cuz you dont like it
she did not move to the states, only from an other state to florida.
the afghan burqa would look even more .. exotic ... on the ID picture. you can't even see the eyes.
Then the government should make some kind of special arrangements to ensure that you get an id, and don't have to forsake your god to do it.
No, no...that's not what the First Amendment says at all. The First Amendment says that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. Congress has not done this. Requiring someone to take off a veil (that covers the ENTIRE face) is not establishing (or promoting) a religion. Government is supposed to be religion-neutral, not making "special arrangements" for different religions. If she can cover her face in the photo, then I want to be able to cover my face, too. Not letting me cover my face because I am not Muslim would be a violation of the First Amendment. It would be saying "You only are allowed to cover your face if you are Muslim" or "You can't cover your face because you're Christian."
On another note, does anyone know what Islamic law says about women driving?
Comments
Congress* shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
*States are now also bound by this amendment.
Originally posted by thuh Freak
she most definitely should be allowed to wear the veil. the only mark i think that could go against her, is if driving is inherently against islam or something. but even then i think she has the right to pick and choose which parts of the religion she obeys.
*States are now also bound by this amendment.
"Freeman, a convert to Islam previously known as Sandra Kellar, wore her veil for the photo on the Florida driver's license she obtained after moving to the state in 2001."
And what if my whatever religion would prohibit ALL the photographs? Insert a drawing to the passport?
Besides, why did she get the drivers licence in 2001? Didn't they check the photos before giving it to her?
Originally posted by Giaguara
And what if my whatever religion would prohibit ALL the photographs? Insert a drawing to the passport?
Then the government should make some kind of special arrangements to ensure that you get an id, and don't have to forsake your god to do it.
Originally posted by BRussell
I'd like to see the passages in the Koran that state she can't take her veil off for a driver's license picture.
Freeman claims her religious beliefs require her to keep her head and face covered out of modesty and that her faith prohibits her face from being photographed.
I dont think it should even matter if they find it in the Koran. She believes it is against her god and her religion, and the government should not able to ignore a person's religious beliefs like that. A government should bend to its people.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
sorry, but to me this falls under the same restrictions as not being able to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theatre.
there are some exceptions.
don't want your photo on a driver's license, don't drive.
Person behaves like dick!
OMA!
Pr0oveZ all MoOsLems SuXx0r!!!!!!!!
Originally posted by thuh Freak
I dont think it should even matter if they find it in the Koran. She believes it is against her god and her religion, and the government should not able to ignore a person's religious beliefs like that. A government should bend to its people.
all you believe are your "religional beliefs" aren't a proof that theyu are not unsainity or mental illness. i think if she thinks having a photo for the DL is agaisnt her religion, so should be the driving. that's what men are for, right?
The answer is no. It is her constitutional right to follow whatever religion she chooses and forcing her to reveal her face is against her religion. Her drivers liscense should look like she would when she is pulled over, in veil and all.
The case shows the current problem with our licenses. They should be palm or finger print based (maybe retinal).
There are obvious problems with the enforcement of laws when she demands to where her veil at all times, but that is a problem with the laws and not her.
My religion precludes the use of (evil) money. The government must allow me to pay my taxes with chickens. \
Originally posted by alcimedes
sorry, but to me this falls under the same restrictions as not being able to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theatre.
there are some exceptions.
don't want your photo on a driver's license, don't drive.
this is not the same as 'Fire!' at all. with that outburst, it is unprovoked and causes an unnecessary panic and can very easily lead to people getting hurt. This is a matter of a person wishing to use a common service of the government and maintain her religion. Her religion denies her the ability to reveal herself for photographs. Its not an unreasonable part of the religion. I think ids should be made to take this into account. i fail to see how it is anyway like causing a panic where none was warranted. if, on the other hand, you are saying they are alike in that both are exclusions, then i think we should put a little more meat behind that argument first.
Originally posted by Giaguara
all you believe are your "religional beliefs" aren't a proof that theyu are not unsainity or mental illness. i think if she thinks having a photo for the DL is agaisnt her religion, so should be the driving. that's what men are for, right?
well, from an atheist's perspective, all religious beliefs seem a little cooky to me. but i think free people have the right in a free country to freely believe in what they want, and to reasonably follow those beliefs. if an insane person can pass a driver's test, and doesn't want to be photographed, then the state should make a license without a picture for him.
if, on the other hand, you are saying they are alike in that both are exclusions, then i think we should put a little more meat behind that argument first.
yeah, just used that as an example of free speech restrictions, in contrast to the amendment. similarly, there are a ton of restrictions on religion. if your religion involves human sacrifice, you're S.O.L. there are a variety of practices that just can't happen due to health and safety concerns.
to me this is one of them.
Originally posted by alcimedes
yeah, just used that as an example of free speech restrictions, in contrast to the amendment. similarly, there are a ton of restrictions on religion. if your religion involves human sacrifice, you're S.O.L. there are a variety of practices that just can't happen due to health and safety concerns.
to me this is one of them.
well, with this license, its not like she or anyone else would be in immediate or foreseeable danger. she'll probably just have a long ass wait everytime she gets a ticket, while the pigs try to id her. its not like the picture causes any damage in itself. i can't see any health or safety concerns related.
Originally posted by ThunderPoit
they should be required to remove the veil for any id papers that require a photograph. I agree that this country is free and religiously diverse, but there are some things that you simply have to do. You HAVE to have a picture of your FACE if you want any form of id. A black piece of cloth will not work. If you want to move here to be free, then by all means do so, however, dont bitch about the tiny shit cuz you dont like it
she did not move to the states, only from an other state to florida.
the afghan burqa would look even more .. exotic ... on the ID picture. you can't even see the eyes.
Originally posted by kneelbeforezod
Should Hasidic men shave for theirs?
Should any bearded men shave for theirs? Interesting how you singled one group out.
Originally posted by thuh Freak
Then the government should make some kind of special arrangements to ensure that you get an id, and don't have to forsake your god to do it.
No, no...that's not what the First Amendment says at all. The First Amendment says that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. Congress has not done this. Requiring someone to take off a veil (that covers the ENTIRE face) is not establishing (or promoting) a religion. Government is supposed to be religion-neutral, not making "special arrangements" for different religions. If she can cover her face in the photo, then I want to be able to cover my face, too. Not letting me cover my face because I am not Muslim would be a violation of the First Amendment. It would be saying "You only are allowed to cover your face if you are Muslim" or "You can't cover your face because you're Christian."
On another note, does anyone know what Islamic law says about women driving?