Web design GURUs: going from HTML to...less work :0)

Posted:
in Mac Software edited January 2014
I remember the day 4 years ago when I asked my brother how on earth can I make a web site. And he said "14 year olds can do it, so can you" so off I went to a paid geocities plan and used their html editor to whip of a few sites.



I am now a self-taught web designer who has created quite a few websites using HTML ONLY (no editors to help with forms or anything):



Sample:



ART4CHILDREN



and have done a few web sites for some artist friends. I want to learn to do interfaces, like the one my friend did for our art group site:



QAE ARTISTS *where you can click any text and be taken to that link.





NOW I am TIRED of html, and feel like it will help me "see" just how a program like Dreamweaver and the like work. I want to see what you folks would recommend for someone that wants things simplified where my nose won't be in tutorials and books for too long--one that can let me learn as I go (fat chance you say?). I would love to learn flash too -- and teach it all to myself. I heard that if I learned HTML, these programs that do it all for you- should be easy.



I would appreciate any links to any programs that you think would be a step up from the torture I have been putting myself thru.



I DL'd the demo to Dreamweaver MX and I am not in love with it. Someone suggested Frontpage, but that ain't happening.



I think I am a fast learner?



Thanks for any suggestions!



Jessica (encinitas CA)[
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 32
    cosmonutcosmonut Posts: 4,872member
    Give Dreamweaver some time. I guarantee? that you'll like it a lot better after you get to know it better. It, combined with its studio buddies make for a good time in the end.



    Oh, a hint: Library items are your FRIENDS!!!
  • Reply 2 of 32
    macusersmacusers Posts: 840member
    Dreamweaver MX is awsome, i cant imagine using anything else i have tried Adobe GoLive which was OK, but Dreamweaver is much better, I tried FrontPage and it sucks.



    and Dreamweaver MX is soooooo easy, i didn't read a manual, i didn't read a book, i just used common sense on everything. Oh ya, and I am under 20 too.



    I made my whole MacUsers site with Photoshop for the graphics and Dreamweaver MX for everything else and I could not have been more happier with the results. http://macusers.home.comcast.net
  • Reply 3 of 32
    No offence, but...you've not even begun to scratch the surface of HTML. or web design. Your sites feature images inserted into the HTML (same thing that Macusers' site suffers from), whereas you should have used HTML to achieve the same effects, with CSS.



    I'd really suggest, if you're at all serious about this, that you read more about HTML and CSS and the philosophy behaind it all. Starting to use Dreamweaver would be a real step backwards!



    Also, read about design: adding a drop-shadow to things don't automatically make them look good!
  • Reply 4 of 32
    ghost_user_nameghost_user_name Posts: 22,667member
    In fact, you may want to just forget about HTML all together, because it isn't really the standard anymore. It's been "all about" XHTML and CSS for the past few years. XHTML is pretty much HTML, but much cleaner and stricter (like it always should have been ) defined as an XML application. It got rid of a lot of stuff in HTML, and offloaded whatever you can't figure out how to do, to CSS.



    At the very, very, very least, if you are not using CSS, you are doing yourself a tremendous disservice. It's practically object oriented HTML. I, personally, am a fan.



    I am probably not the first to tell you specifically this, and on these boards this is not the first I have said it, but: The tools do not make the artist!



    I would say that I don't think you're ready to really move to a visual editor until you exhibit (and I do not mean this in a condescending or rude way at all) a bit more... competence with the latest standards, and discipline yourself in writing to them.



    Your willingness to want to write raw HTML is wonderful, and I wholly encourage it. The web would be a better place if more people did this. I mean, because I can pop the hood on my car doesn't mean I should actually try and fix something wrong with it.



    If you haven't been using BBEdit, use it. Go read all about XHTML and CSS, and become one with the code - actually, a real programmer would roll over in his grave if you called that code... so become one with the mark-up language



    If you are really that intent on moving to a visual editor, and I do not believe it is the best of ideas for you, then Dreamweaver would get my vote.



    Also, you may wish to go to your local library, maybe check out some journals or books on design and typography. I cannot stress enough the importance of a formal 'education' in art and design, but if that is not an option for you currently, the library is a wonderful place to teach yourself. It's where I spent a lot of time before I went off to art school.



    EDIT: Ok, and it would appear you have some sort of training. I cannot even begin to tell you how many artists I work with that have such issues producing good design for screen based deployment. I still recommend hitting up the library and perusing the design journals. Personally, I subscribe to IDN and CA, and I recommend them.
  • Reply 5 of 32
    chic4macchic4mac Posts: 99member
    Thank you all for your honest advice. I by no means want to take up a career in web design. I teach children art on a daily basis. That is my gig. This is purely for myself. A formal education in design on any level would be a must before I ever promoted my skills (or lack thereof). And yes, you can have all the skills but not have the EYE for good design, and suck at designing web sites. (see that all the time on the web) LIke I said, just a few artists friends who wanted something whipped up fast and didn't want to pay top dollar, asked me to make them web sites. I certainly don't think I mastered HTML by any means:0) Thanks again for all your advice, and I will look into everything you mentioned and try my hand and DreamWeaver.



    jessica
  • Reply 6 of 32
    ast3r3xast3r3x Posts: 5,012member
    Photoshop + Dreamweaver/Fireworks/Flash = awesome stuff



    XHTML and CSS are very usefull tools...perhaps you'd like to learn



    http://www.w3schools.com/



    also i've been learning PHP and that is extremely useful too...though more for doing stuff and less for visual and design





    golive and frontpage suck...well golive isn't bad but i never liked it very much





    w3schools.com should give you a good start on CSS and XHTML...i think you will be presently suprised
  • Reply 7 of 32
    Stick with dreamweaver, it gets respect from designer types, however, don't let it get in the way of you learning the technology behind CSS. Handcoding when you want to is still the bees-knees.



    Try tweaking the freely reusable templates from here:

    http://www.oswd.org/browse.php?page=1&sort=ratingdesc



    and check here for inspiration, and see what is possible with CSS:

    http://www.csszengarden.com/



    also:



    http://www.zeldman.com



    and



    http://css-discuss.incutio.com/



    will provide many great links for further reading.
  • Reply 8 of 32
    nu64mannu64man Posts: 3member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by chic4mac

    I remember the day 4 years ago when I asked my brother how on earth can I make a web site. And he said "14 year olds can do it, so can you" so off I went to a paid geocities plan and used their html editor to whip of a few sites.



    I am now a self-taught web designer who has created quite a few websites using HTML ONLY (no editors to help with forms or anything):



    Sample:



    ART4CHILDREN



    and have done a few web sites for some artist friends. I want to learn to do interfaces, like the one my friend did for our art group site:



    QAE ARTISTS *where you can click any text and be taken to that link.





    NOW I am TIRED of html, and feel like it will help me "see" just how a program like Dreamweaver and the like work. I want to see what you folks would recommend for someone that wants things simplified where my nose won't be in tutorials and books for too long--one that can let me learn as I go (fat chance you say?). I would love to learn flash too -- and teach it all to myself. I heard that if I learned HTML, these programs that do it all for you- should be easy.



    I would appreciate any links to any programs that you think would be a step up from the torture I have been putting myself thru.



    I DL'd the demo to Dreamweaver MX and I am not in love with it. Someone suggested Frontpage, but that ain't happening.



    I think I am a fast learner?



    Thanks for any suggestions!



    Jessica (encinitas CA)[




    Check out Freeway from SoftPress. Here is their website:



    http://www.softpress.com



    They are Mac only, and make a pretty good editor.
  • Reply 9 of 32
    Quote:

    Originally posted by chic4mac

    Thank you all for your honest advice. I by no means want to take up a career in web design. I teach children art on a daily basis. That is my gig. This is purely for myself. A formal education in design on any level would be a must before I ever promoted my skills (or lack thereof). And yes, you can have all the skills but not have the EYE for good design, and suck at designing web sites. (see that all the time on the web) LIke I said, just a few artists friends who wanted something whipped up fast and didn't want to pay top dollar, asked me to make them web sites. I certainly don't think I mastered HTML by any means:0) Thanks again for all your advice, and I will look into everything you mentioned and try my hand and DreamWeaver.



    jessica




    Well if you put it that way, Dreamweaver. Still read up on XHTML and CSS though



    Personally, I've found that visual editors actually slow me down. I love their site management tools, but when it comes down to it, I'm just more productive writing by hand. But to each his own Dreamweaver will be good for you. I'm not a fan of Macromedia's interface design, never have been, but give it a few and it will grow on you.
  • Reply 10 of 32
    You might want to continue hand editing html and add this nice CSS editor (and they've got a cool web site design):



    http://www.macrabbit.com/cssedit/
  • Reply 11 of 32
    pesipesi Posts: 424member
    dreamweaver is fine and dandy, until you run into a problem and something doesn't work. then you're SOL.



    they tend to generate so much garbage code that it's tough to track down errors.



    and don't even get me started on imageready.



    i've always hated visual editors. they slow me down way too much.



    learn XHTML. learn CSS. TRUE CSS. not the overloaded crap that DW generates.



    while you're at it, learn some PHP and SQL. you'll be much better for it.



    and forget about buying books.



    any books about about web design are outdated by the time they hit the shelves.



    this is the internet, after all. use it.
  • Reply 12 of 32
    I agree with everything LoCash said.
  • Reply 13 of 32
    ast3r3xast3r3x Posts: 5,012member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by pesi

    ...and forget about buying books.



    any books about about web design are outdated by the time they hit the shelves.



    this is the internet, after all. use it...




    i disagree...buying books is a very good way to learn material especially if you are reading while your not at a computer



    i enjoy books because its an easy way to grab it and look up a function or special characteristics (php, javascript is what i'm speaking)



    of course you can look things up on the internet and for many things this is appropriate but i feel that (especially on a book with >1000 pages of information, it will be easier to refrence somethign in that book by the index or table of contents then to search for it on the internet and find what you are looking for...then again i assume that you have read the book and have a basic idea of where u are looking and what for



    and last but not least...DW does create some bad code sometimes, but its nice to quickly create part of a page that would just be simple tedious code and do the more hardcore coding urself
  • Reply 14 of 32
    cubedudecubedude Posts: 1,556member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by MacUsers

    and Dreamweaver MX is soooooo easy, i didn't read a manual, i didn't read a book, i just used common sense on everything. Oh ya, and I am under 20 too.





    Heck, I'm 13 and I figured it out in a few minutes too.



    As for learning XHTML and CSS, check out Webmonkey's tutorials. They're not that bad.



    http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey/authoring/



    BTW, they also have an article on the future of Mac browsers.



    http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey/03/22/index4a.html
  • Reply 15 of 32
    cosmonutcosmonut Posts: 4,872member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by ast3r3x



    *snip*



    DW does create some bad code sometimes, but its nice to quickly create part of a page that would just be simple tedious code and do the more hardcore coding urself




    ...which DW allows you to do from inside the program. You can do as much or little of manual coding as you'd like and not have to switch programs.
  • Reply 16 of 32
    ast3r3xast3r3x Posts: 5,012member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by CosmoNut

    ...which DW allows you to do from inside the program. You can do as much or little of manual coding as you'd like and not have to switch programs.



    thanks for clearing that up...it was the point i ws TRYING to make
  • Reply 17 of 32
    I find BBEdit a lot quicker.
  • Reply 18 of 32
    ghost_user_nameghost_user_name Posts: 22,667member
    The only books I keep on my shelves are the O'Reilly books, and the XHTML and CSS books are really up there for reference purposes so I can look up information about an element and get a detailed explanation on its usage.



    The books also help clear up a lot of things about dynamic sizing of elements using percentages. I'm still try to get www.turborodent.com to render properly, and the biggest problem has been setting the size of certain elements as a percentage. You've gotta go it in CSS...



    So yeah, the books help for that. Books are good I like books.
  • Reply 19 of 32
    cosmonutcosmonut Posts: 4,872member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by ast3r3x

    thanks for clearing that up...it was the point i ws TRYING to make



    Just think of that interaction as one similar to the many similar kinds on sci-fi shows:



    Captain: "Oh, no. It's a Finneld Buggerfier!"

    Useless Crewmember: "What's that?"

    Captain: "It has the capability of ionizing all of our brains in one second!"



    It just brings everyone up to speed, eh?
  • Reply 20 of 32
    addadd Posts: 4member
    I would reccomend learning something like flash if you have the time.



    Having the ability to create animations and 'script' interactivity may open up new ideas for you.



    Actionscript is a good way of learning programming concepts and techniques. You can start off with fairly simple things (clicking buttons plays different sounds and animations) and gradually move on to create more complex things (like games).



    There are tons of resources on the web



    Flash kit being one of the best

    http://www.flashkit.com



    And macromedia's support site isn't too bad either

    http://www.macromedia.com/support/flash



    You can't beat a good book when learning something new.

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