Why not Water cooling?

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  • Reply 61 of 219
    moosemanmooseman Posts: 126member
    ....sorry, you'll never see a water cooled machine made by Apple. If it gets to the point where air-cooled heat sinks won't do the trick, I'm sure by that point electron tunneling will be perfected. Electron tunneling cooling is the future.



    BTW, the 9 fans are there because 9 runing at very low speed are much quiter than 2 running at high speed.
  • Reply 62 of 219
    leonardleonard Posts: 528member
    Maybe you guys need to actually take a look at a water cooled system . It definitely has a few fans on it on the radiator, don't know how noisy they are. In this case you get a prebuilt case with the coolant already in it and alot of it set up. You can get simplier setups with just one fan, but would that be enough.
  • Reply 63 of 219
    leonardleonard Posts: 528member
    Another option to a water-cooled system is a system that is completely submerged in a non-conductive liquid material. Someone showed be a picture of one of these once. It's like a computer in an aquarium. Of course it's definitely not for the consumer, and is probably more of a "see if it works" geek thing.
  • Reply 64 of 219
    jpjp Posts: 19member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Leonard

    Another option to a water-cooled system is a system that is completely submerged in a non-conductive liquid material. Someone showed be a picture of one of these once. It's like a computer in an aquarium. Of course it's definitely not for the consumer, and is probably more of a "see if it works" geek thing.



    It was probably



    Fluorinert



    JP.
  • Reply 65 of 219
    curiousuburbcuriousuburb Posts: 3,325member
    if you want to try the open system (replacing water), can you make the heat pipe spigot a feature?



    mmm... espresso mac





    as for the best candidate cooling materials...





    Aerogel rocks for insulation.
  • Reply 66 of 219
    jpjp Posts: 19member
    Aerogel is a great insulator but not so hot for conducting heat away from the chip



    It is still very cool stuff though



    (Excuse the puns )
  • Reply 67 of 219
    curiousuburbcuriousuburb Posts: 3,325member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by JP

    Aerogel is a great insulator but not so hot for conducting heat away from the chip



    It is still very cool stuff though



    (Excuse the puns )




    if no pun was intended, then no punishment.



    Aerogel wins for Best Insulator.



    Best Conductor? i'm inclined to say... von Karajan
  • Reply 68 of 219
    reynardreynard Posts: 160member
    One point that is being missed. One important point. Liquid cooling is not used just because it removes more heat in a given amount of time. It is also because it tends to equalize the temperature in a system. In other words, minimize hot spots.



    Take an engine. If the heat were equally spread throughout the engine, water cooling may not be necessary. But with some parts say, 600° and others 300°, there's the problem. Exhaust valves get a lot hotter than the intake area. Liquid keeps these hot spots from getting to the point of damage.



    No I dont know anything about chips, but I'd be surprised if there weren't certain spots on them that were danger points--specific places that will "die" first when heat isnt removed quickly enough.



    Liquid could be channeled to this point and spread out. And to a user, the laptop could actually feel warmer than an air cooled one. But key points are kept from critical temps. So you wouldnt necessarily need a huge radiator. Just spreading the heat around makes much more of the computer a radiator. Its all a big heat sink then.



    Finally, don't dismiss the idea just because "if it were a good idea, it would be in place now". Take motorcycles. Before you all were born I was riding bikes that were ALL air cooled. Now virutally all sport bikes are liquid cooled. And they're obscenely fast. Like tomorrow's computers.?



    So maybe, just maybe.
  • Reply 69 of 219
    I don't think I am going to touch the licquid cooling subject with a 10 foot pole. However, distilled water will not conduct any electricity (no free charged ions to transmit energy). You could run a computer just fine inside a tank of ion free water. I feel there may be a new advancement in heat sink technology before licquid cooling becomes necessary. Some companies may even resort to running the processor outside of the main box with the heatsinks running out the back. Id like to see a heatsink made like a porous sponge configuration, like that of cancellous bone. This would lead to greater surface area and therefore more passive heat disipation. But then again who knows... but I think I can say its not going to be coolchips



    [email protected]
  • Reply 70 of 219
    groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    Quote:

    Does it have to be child's play? I don't think anything about the G5's engineering would be considered child's play.



    I disagree completely. If there's anything more simplistic than "let's make the case a huge metal heatsink with openings in the back and front and regulate airflow at the sacrifice of practical use" with regard to case design to get around heat issues I don't know what it is. You do not get more "child's play" than "MAKE IT BIGGAR!"



    The thing is like one of those Chow dogs that is 90% hair.



    The fact that they had to remove features from the previous tower shows that there is a problem. A problem obviated to a large extent by the power of the components being cooled, of course.



    The solution of giant metal cases to encourage proper airflow is not something unique to Apple's genius design team. But by all means, let's fellate Jon Ives for putting a cheese grater on the front of a Coolermaster and a neato plexi-glass side on the case (*ahem*) and using lots of fans to cool things. But it's got an Apple logo on the side so obviously they invented all of it. heh



    Liquid cooling is absolutely the way of the future, and lambasting iSegway for pointing out this truth is silly when you note that the functionality of the G5 has been cut down from El Capitan because a more innovative/creative way of cooling the components couldn't be found.



    Keep one of those fans (and the "oooooo neato" computer control) to push the heat from the radiator out and you can use a much smaller form factor (you wanna tell me the cube wouldn't have benefited?) or properly make use of the amazingly large empty space in the current tower.



    But again, the whizz-bang performance of the G5 makes up for the design deficiencies.
  • Reply 71 of 219
    amorphamorph Posts: 7,112member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by reynard

    One point that is being missed. One important point. Liquid cooling is not used just because it removes more heat in a given amount of time. It is also because it tends to equalize the temperature in a system. In other words, minimize hot spots.



    Take an engine. If the heat were equally spread throughout the engine, water cooling may not be necessary. But with some parts say, 600° and others 300°, there's the problem. Exhaust valves get a lot hotter than the intake area. Liquid keeps these hot spots from getting to the point of damage.



    No I dont know anything about chips, but I'd be surprised if there weren't certain spots on them that were danger points--specific places that will "die" first when heat isnt removed quickly enough.




    That wouldn't apply to individual chips, but certainly motherboards have hot spots - hard drives, optical drives, CPUs, GPUs, etc.



    This is, in fact, pretty much the best case for liquid cooling. For it to work, however, the cooling system has to be designed around certain components in certain places having certain temperatures. Your motorcycle engine doesn't have PCI slots, or replaceable GPUs, or drive bays. This is why Hitachi debuted their liquid cooling in a laptop: For all practical purposes it's a sealed box, and so it's an easier nut to crack. It probably doesn't hurt, either, that none of the components are particularly hot. The Hitachi is modestly spec'd.



    So what does this offer the PowerMac? Not much. The system it has now only has to know about heat within four zones, so wildly variable parts like AGP cards won't throw it off, and it has all the airflow it wants because of the "cheese graters". It's overengineered, so you could probably overclock the processors, stick in a couple of 10K drives and stuff the slots full of smoldering 12" cards and the factory cooling system would still hold up (although I imagine it'd be making a racket by then).



    I suppose you could have a hybrid system, where things that don't change much are liquid cooled and things that do are fan cooled, but that just makes things more complicated. Apple's system involves very few parts, keeps all the upgradeable bits easily accessible, and it's robust enough to cool the average shipping system by idling. That might not be the greatest imaginable solution (and it's certainly not original - this technique is common in servers), but I don't see how it's stupid or seriously lacking.
  • Reply 72 of 219
    groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    How's about this?



    You take the permanent features of the board that get hot (namely, processors (which are the biggest problem)) and get them going with direct liquid immersion cooling. Best part, since you've decided to make the case out of aluminum you use the entire giant case as the radiator (or at least the parts nearest the processors). Have a fan nearby (computer-controlled) in case of emergencies if you like. Do the same with the power supply maybe.



    Specific application to the G5 would be removal of the giant fans in the lower section of the case.







    But the idea of liquid cooling, of course, isn't restricted to the G5 and is still very applicable to Apple because for the most part, Apple makes "closed" systems. The portable line, the iMac and the eMac are all essentially fixed in their configurations. Why would it be hard to put DualG5s in an iMac? Heat. Could a liquid cooling solution fix that? You betcha.



    The argument isn't what is cost-efficient or what is smartest for Apple, it's just that it would work. The cheapest solution works for Apple, and that's what giant empty cases are.



    I love this image:





    It's got ugly cables because you can plug them into internal expansion devices! heh
  • Reply 73 of 219
    amorphamorph Posts: 7,112member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by groverat



    Specific application to the G5 would be removal of the giant fans in the lower section of the case.




    You don't want to get rid of the giant fans, though, because they can spin slowly and still move lots of air. If you want to control noise, you want to get rid of high RPM fans, and the smaller a fan is the faster it has to run to move the same amount of air.



    In the G5, the default speed for the big fans is 1/10 normal speed. That's basically a low whisper. In case of emergency, you still want giant fans, because if pressed they can move tremendous amounts of air - and most people would prefer the resulting roar to a meltdown, if it came to that.



    Quote:

    But the idea of liquid cooling, of course, isn't restricted to the G5 and is still very applicable to Apple because for the most part, Apple makes "closed" systems.



    Absolutely. Apple has shown a willingness to try out interesting cooling methods in the PowerBooks and the Cube and the iBook, because you have a lot more options when you know exactly which components will be how much of a problem when. The Hitachi does not make liquid cooling look particularly attractive, though. Compare its price to its specs. Apple seems to have done quite well combining passive cooling with tactfully placed fans, so the question is not whether liquid cooling would work - obviously it works - but whether it works better, and how much it costs.



    And this is quite different from the original hope that liquid cooling could allow the PowerMac G5 to be more internally expandable.



    Quote:

    The portable line, the iMac and the eMac are all essentially fixed in their configurations. Why would it be hard to put DualG5s in an iMac? Heat. Could a liquid cooling solution fix that? You betcha.



    Heat and cost and space, actually. But I'm not entirely convinced that liquid cooling could do that. Remember, liquid mostly just moves the problem around - which is not a bad thing. In the iMac, there aren't too many places to move to, and any active cooling (refrigerator or fan) would defeat the purpose. Maybe Apple could try spiraling a tube around the dome, cooling tower style? If they had dual G5's in there the dome would have to be aluminum, but it might work...
  • Reply 74 of 219
    moosemanmooseman Posts: 126member
    ...why not just use this....



    ...besides, with 90nm, 65nm on the horizon, I doubt we'll run into a need for liquid cooling any time soon for the mass market. Apple's solution is more about noise control than heat control. Remember that.



    Cool Chips
  • Reply 75 of 219
    groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    Amorph:



    Quote:

    You don't want to get rid of the giant fans, though, because they can spin slowly and still move lots of air. If you want to control noise, you want to get rid of high RPM fans, and the smaller a fan is the faster it has to run to move the same amount of air.



    I'm talking specifically in that area of the G5. to make room for more expandability options (5.25" drive bays and hard drive racks). With the processors cooled by liquid immersion there is no need to cool them with fans.



    Quote:

    In the G5, the default speed for the big fans is 1/10 normal speed. That's basically a low whisper. In case of emergency, you still want giant fans, because if pressed they can move tremendous amounts of air - and most people would prefer the resulting roar to a meltdown, if it came to that.



    I know. But that's a lot of real estate.



    Quote:

    The Hitachi does not make liquid cooling look particularly attractive, though.



    Well you'll notice I didn't mention the Hitachi as a method to follow. And just because that doesn't look attractive there is no implication that it is not possible or even reasonable.



    Quote:

    Apple seems to have done quite well combining passive cooling with tactfully placed fans, so the question is not whether liquid cooling would work - obviously it works - but whether it works better, and how much it costs.



    Cost is an issue for Apple, I'm not talking about real prices because neither you nor I really know either way.



    As far as Apple doing "quite well" in the cooling arena, have you ever tried using a modern PowerBook on your lap? Yikes.



    Quote:

    And this is quite different from the original hope that liquid cooling could allow the PowerMac G5 to be more internally expandable.



    Liquid cooling provides many options.

    For $2900 is it unreasonable to scratch your head at the lack of drive bays?



    Quote:

    Remember, liquid mostly just moves the problem around - which is not a bad thing.



    Better out the back of the laptop than directly and "elegantly" on your flesh.



    Quote:

    In the iMac, there aren't too many places to move to, and any active cooling (refrigerator or fan) would defeat the purpose. Maybe Apple could try spiraling a tube around the dome, cooling tower style? If they had dual G5's in there the dome would have to be aluminum, but it might work...



    You could even cool the liquid passively provided a small pump for forced circulation through the hottest portions of the machine.



    Apple is borrowing a page from the performance PC nerds with their giant metal heatsink case and plexiglass side door for super-cool looking at the innards. One can only wonder if they follow the trend of liquid cooling.
  • Reply 76 of 219
    powerdocpowerdoc Posts: 8,123member
    From the apple developper note about the G5 page 12 :



    Power supply : The Power Mac G5 computer comes with either a 450 w or 600 w power supply.



    I think it's the biggest power supply ever in a powermac.



    Big power supply means, more heat ( a big power supply imply in itself more heat). I think there is no absolutely no chance to make work a G5 system in the old case. A G5 require more power supply to feed the chips, and to feed the mobo. Watercooling is used to cool the CPU and some ASICS or video card. I never heard of a watercooled powersupply. And i am ready to bet that a 600 watts powersupply produce a lot of heat.
  • Reply 77 of 219
    groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    600w!?



    Are we sure Jon Ives isn't a frequent visitor of Tom's Hardware, HardOCP or ArsTechnica?
  • Reply 78 of 219
    bungebunge Posts: 7,329member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by groverat

    I'm talking specifically in that area of the G5. to make room for more expandability options (5.25" drive bays and hard drive racks). With the processors cooled by liquid immersion there is no need to cool them with fans.



    I'm with you on the need/desire for more drive bays, but liquid cooling doesn't mean no fans. It does mean less fans though. In a liquid cooled machine, the liquid pulls the heat to a concentrated location where a fan still has to blow the heat out of the box. I think that's what Amorph was trying to say.
  • Reply 79 of 219
    isegwayisegway Posts: 133member
    Quote:

    I'm with you on the need/desire for more drive bays, but liquid cooling doesn't mean no fans. It does mean less fans though.



    I disagree with this.... IMO water cooling can be acheived without fans... the question is would people pay the extra money for a totally silent computer and deal with the larger radiator and/or water resevoir it would require? I would... but I could see others not wanting to.







    http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...3/index5.phtml





    TEXT AND PHOTOS BY JONATHAN GROMER



    As processors get smaller and packed with more transistors for greater speed, the problem of heat becomes a crisis. Chip temperatures are approaching the limits of existing cooling technology, and too much heat is a common killer of computers' central processors. High-power processors already generate between 40 and 70 watts of thermal energy, and much more powerful 64-bit processors will be on our desks in the immediate future. By the end of this decade, because of increasing chip speeds--and a corresponding increase in temperature--it's estimated that a square centimeter of microprocessors could generate upward of 1000°F--equivalent to the exhaust temperature of the rockets on the space shuttle. We need a new cooling solution--and soon. CoolIT Systems, a small company out of Calgary, Canada, might have just introduced the answer: a liquid-cooling system.



    The CoolIT system isn't the first to use a liquid-based approach. Considerably more expensive than air-cooling systems ($200 more by average), liquid cooling has been available for years, thanks to the distinct advantage of being able to transfer much more heat away from a processor than an air-based system.



    Look inside your computer and you'll find the MVP of your air-cooling system: a piece of metal designed with a lot of surface area (usually fins), coupled to your processor. This metal structure is a heat sink, usually made of copper, drawing dangerous heat away from your hot-blooded chip. A fan blows a steady stream of air onto the heat sink to cool it down, and allows it to absorb more heat from your processor. High-speed processors need high-performance fans that sometimes pump out 60-plus decibels of noise--and some systems have up to five fans.



    Water, however, is 10 times more effective than copper as a coolant, making it a superior choice. Liquid cooling is also much quieter than air cooling. Although liquid cooling still requires a fan, it doesn't need one strong or loud enough to make you feel like you have a model airplane under your desk.



    So with these great advantages, why can't you buy a computer with a liquid-cooling system already installed? First off, liquid-cooling systems are bulky. A radiator is used to send the heat absorbed by the water out of the box. If you don't have your radiator someplace cooler than the room's ambient temperature (like on a window sill or in a refrigerator), you'll need fans to cool it off. And radiators are big. A smaller, more portable radiator needs louder, more powerful fans. Add the fact that many liquid-cooled systems are heavy because of the volume of water needed, and the cost benefits of liquid-cooling systems just don't stack up to air-cooling systems. Not to mention that you could soak your electronics or give yourself a severe shock if you don't install the system properly.



    The CoolIT system shines because it offers the strengths of a liquid-cooled system in a small and simple package. Instead of an attention-hungry radiator, the CoolIT system uses a self-contained device called a Chiller that drops water to below ambient temperatures like a refrigerator. The Chiller uses peltier cooling, a special heat sink and a fan. Peltier cooling is a thermoelectric principle whereby one direction of an electric current allows heat to be absorbed on one side of a metal device (making it cold) as heat is rejected on the opposite side (making it warm).



    The small size of the Chiller allows for a portable, smaller form factor and the fan of the prototype unit we're using is relatively quiet--with a quieter prototype in development as this is being written. As for liquid cooling's weight problem, the CoolIT system requires only 140cc to 170cc of liquid and one pump to send it through the system's tubes. Best of all, you can buy a CoolIT system on a commercially available machine--boutique builder Voodoo Entertainment Systems will be offering CoolIT systems on its premium F-1 machines in fall 2003 for a price that will range between $5000 and $6000. The price may seem a little high, but it's important to remember that every 10° drop in operating temperature should double your CPU's expected useful life.



    Our tests showed that the CoolIT unit kept our Voodoo F-1 system 4°F cooler inside the box than the room temperature outside while under heavy stress--unheard of with conventional air cooling. Even CoolIT's own test numbers don't reflect such high performance.



    For more information on CoolIT Systems, contact Ravi Sood at Voodoo Entertainment Systems: 888-708-6636 or www.voodoopc.com.





    Thick tubes of cool blue liquid connect all the components of the CoolIT system in our prototype Voodoo F-1. The black box at the top of the unit is the innovative Chiller.









    The gray box with three tubes entering it houses the system's pump and voltage inverter. The metal square with two tubes on the right of the box is the heat exchanger for the CPU. The metal plate on the card below pulls heat away from the graphics-processing unit.
  • Reply 80 of 219
    jay1jay1 Posts: 22member
    Think about this

    If watter cooling is so good then why dont server/ colocation places use watter cooling? they dont as its to much hasle to deal with all they have is ac. uses les power and les matince. as i my self have seen water cooling system systems fall apart. blocks the watter blocks corode pipes rusing out etc. If it was rilly that good then would comp makers use it all the time. Just think about that for a minute
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