Israel is lucky to have the U.S.A. on her side. Otherwise they might already have been forced to give it back.
Since when do we offer anything to the losers? Since when to we allow a country that attacks gain anything? Not since before Hitler. Is the U.S. going to be allowed to keep Afghanistan or Iraq?
Or perhaps the rest of the world should just lose patience with Israel?
And how exactly would Israel be forced to give it back? Israel is lucky to have a true friend. If you remember, it was Europe who originally armed israel, then turned its back on her when the Arabs starting threatening terrorist attacks and Arabs threatened a cut-off of oil.
Israel was attacked more than once and won each time. The only time Israel attacked first was preemptive.
The world should lose patience with israel when they have been trying to make peace for almost 10 years while at the same time seeing their women and children slaughtered by terrorists? Even the European reps were shocked when Arafat turned down israels last offer. Then he resorted to what he does best-killing innocents. I may not be religious but i know when I'm on the right side. Israel isnt perfect and i disagree with many things they do, but it doesnt mean the Palestinians are any better. ......................................
I know, I just meant you shouldn't have to. No-one needs to add such riders if they criticise say, Mugabe - why is Israel always seen as a special case ?
And how exactly would Israel be forced to give it back?
There are many means to which Israel could be forced to comply. U.N.-intervention is one way to go. Placing peace-keeping troops on palestinian soil effectively preventing Israeli defence forces from doing their military raids upon palestinian cities. A trade embargo would be another. No more Israeli fruit or technology export to Europe. That would hit Sharon and his Likud-party where it hurts: the warchest. After all, an army is a costsome organisation to run.
with Lord Lucan and Elvis and some visiting space-brothers....
And the second coming of Jesus Christ bringing His Fathers blessing to the war just before making every Iraqi (except those who were member of the Baath party) christian.
There are many means to which Israel could be forced to comply. U.N.-intervention is one way to go. Placing peace-keeping troops on palestinian soil effectively preventing Israeli defence forces from doing their military raids upon palestinian cities. A trade embargo would be another. No more Israeli fruit or technology export to Europe. That would hit Sharon and his Likud-party where it hurts: the warchest. After all, an army is a costsome organisation to run.
And would the UN prevent palestinians from terrorizing Israeli civilians? And when the inevitable terrorist attack occurs, with the UN preventing Israeli forces from defending itself, then the UN would basically have become a terrorist organization itself. See the problem?
If there were to be a trade embargo everytime a country disagreed with another over an issue that would be ridiculous. There are many other countries that do things far worse than israel does, so why arent you propoding an embargo on them? In fact, Europe wants the embargo on Cuba ended even though its run by a brutal dictator. But he's a leftist so then it doesnt count, right?...........................
And how exactly would Israel be forced to give it back?
Like Saddam gave back Iraq.
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Israel is lucky to have a true friend. If you remember, it was Europe who originally armed israel, then turned its back on her when the Arabs starting threatening terrorist attacks and Arabs threatened a cut-off of oil.
Because you think Europe is scum, Israel is good?
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Israel was attacked more than once and won each time. The only time Israel attacked first was preemptive.
Even the Israeli politicians disagree with you.
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Even the European reps were shocked when Arafat turned down israels last offer.
Did you take my advice and go look it up? No one who is at all informed about it thinks the Palestinians should accept it.
1) No-one can speak out against Israel without the 'R' word raising it's head.
Maybe because so often, that is the root cause of much of the criticisms.
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
2) The US is so much in bed with Israel that any US-based criticism is seen (painted) as an attack on the US rather than US policy.
Often they are.
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
3) Succesive US administrations are scared of Israel. Petrified. Or rather of DC Jewish lobbies. Note Powell's speech last week criticising the Wall: he said "Our friends in Israel must know if they have gone too far".
Our friends. I don't doubt they are friends but this is not diplomatic language in terms of crticising a nation's actions. Why not just say "Israel must know.." Because they're scared and want to sugar any pill....
nitpicking about diplomatic language?
Lots of lobbies, lots of special interest groups. So what.
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
4) There is a traditional anti-Arab/Muslim animus in the West in general and people have 'chosen sides'.
A ?traditional? anti-arab/muslim animus? Maybe if arab/muslims stopped blowing things up there wouldn?t be as much bad feelings. And yes, I know the west can shoulder much of the blame for bad relations, but it goes 2 ways and always has?Islam doesn?t exactly teach wonderful things about the Crusaders from the west.
Besides, there has also be a history of anti-jewish sentiment in the west..in case you missed the last century or so as an example.
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
The whole Jewish fundamentalist religious paradigm is founded on a racist postulate (that God would choose one people over all his other creation) and legitimises discrimination on racial grounds. Let's just call it what it is:
if it looks like racism, smells like racism and acts like racism then it's **** racism. Period, No excuses.
Well, then I guess you fit the bill.
To condemn Judaism as a racist belief system makes no sense and is more of the same shit people have been spewing about jews forever. They belief that God chose one people doesn?t mean the believe they are better in anyway than other races. In fact, how can it be racism when Judaism consists of a core belief that they were a group of people in a region, who different from other in the area based only on the belief in a one particular god? They saw them selves as the same ?race? as all the others around them, only that they had chosen to believe that their beliefs separate them from the others around them. How is this different that any other religion? As far as race goes, they see themselves as kin to other Semitic peoples.
Again, the law is wrong.
And you condemnation of Judaism looks, sounds and smells like racism?so by your own argument??
Oh and I think you'll find that no muslims were 'blowing things up' at that time either. Actually it doesn't cut both ways - it cuts one way till the people getting cut don't want to take it anymore and start fighting back - then people like you put the blame on them for fighting....
And another thing...Islam doesn't teach anything about the Crusades
Gee that's cute Segovious..neatly side-stepped how the Islamic empire got started in the first place..
Er... I seem to remember a lot of muslim armies killing and murdering non-believers..in many many cities through-out africa, & the middle east.
I know you want to sanitize Islamic history but the facts are most of their conquests were at the end of a sword..not a lollipop...
Ps your technically right about the crusades..but you haven't said anything about sharia law yet have you..?
Nor have you mentioned anything about the footage of Osamas' men shown kicking in doors and spraying the dummies with bullets..Oh & the point is those dummies were painted in black with huge unmistakable white crosses across their chests... to resemble the crusaders of old.
And as we all know the crusades were started as a result of a blockade ( by the caliph ) of any holy pilgrimages by christians to Jerusalem.
Opinion..I will say as easily that more often they are. In fact, usually the are.
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Btw - do you really believe there were 'wonderul things' in the Crusades or do you just not know about the Jews burned alive in the synagogues ? I know you must have heard about dead muslims and they don't count but....
Oh and I think you'll find that no muslims were 'blowing things up' at that time either. Actually it doesn't cut both ways - it cuts one way till the people getting cut don't want to take it anymore and start fighting back - then people like you put the blame on them for fighting....
Keep trying to paint muslim as victims. It always easier to do so for the losing side. As much as you wish to lay all guilt on the west, Islam was sweeping across the world, usually at the point of a sword. It started with bloodshed to build and continued.
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
And another thing...Islam doesn't teach anything about the Crusades, it was formulated as a system before they got underway. In fact, the purpose of those Crusades was to eradicate it.
To erradicate a rivial regligion that was bend on assmilating others, by word or sword? You mean they responded in kind?..bastards.
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Maybe we live in a different century. In mine, a bunch of racist nutters in one geographical location in Europe managed to gain power of a country and attempted a systematic genocide of the Jews. The whole civilized world (it was civilized then - not in Bush's terms) united to defeat this menace and did so saving millions of lives of people of all races.
In mine, anti-semitism has been around a long, long time. Lots of examples of it around. Guess if you willfully ignore it, then it doesn't exist. You world must be nice. I am sure you'd prefer a few less jews, but....
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
But you're just talking about Jews aren't you....
duh, you are quick today. I was talking about just the jews...much as you were talking about just arab/muslims. Snide comments about people who see the anti-semitism in you, doesn't discredit the accusation.
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
You guess wrong - maybe time to give up the guesswork and focus on facts. If that's too hard you could try listening to people. Failing that then try to stop the insults.
Boyo, it's no guess. I am sure you can sing praises on all the wonderful races on earth, I am also sure you are an rabid anti-semite. You hatred is obvious, deny as you will.
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Is that why Moses massacred tens of thousands of Midianites (Num 31:1-18 )
Murder of the Egyptians to free the Jews (Exodus 7:3 on)
God sends a plague to kill 24,000 people because of mixing with the Midianites (Num 25: 6-9)
More Midianite slaughter (Judges 7:2,9,22)
Total genocide of Amelikites (1 Samuel 15: 8 )
gasp! warfare at a time it was needed for survival...brutish jews!!!kill 'em all!!!
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
But enough of contradictory and nonsensical myths. Basically if I said that God had chosen the white race as a 'special people' but that my belief in this was just a religious one and don't worry about the fact that my religion engages in wholesale slaughter of other races, really we feel akin to them...well, you get the picture.
No, lets say he choose a small group from within a race...jews weren't a race. Not even jews then. They were a sect of 'semitic' people. Call it racist all you like, but singling Judaism out as a fundamentally racist belief system shows your true colours.
Err no, you've twisted my argument so much that I think I'll let you keep it - I've got plenty more..... [/B][/QUOTE]
You remember ?? I had you pegged as a lot younger than that Aqua
What was Sal'a-din like ? He's always been a particular fave of mine ! [QUOTE] ooops...
And here I was thinking you knew King Arthur (pax arturos ) Didn't he live somewhere near Whopping station..two stops past Barking...
Yes, your reference to Islamic morality & christian morality is a thorny one.. Should we judge others by our moral standards..Should they judge us by theirs.
Throws up a whole bunch of issues Vizaviz UN charter stuff..
"...oh...I've got to say something about Shari'a law haven't I ? Umm...how about not in accordance with the practice of Muhammad ? "
Yes the interpretation of the Koran & it's codefication in strict Sharia Law is probably the corner stone of most peoples' disagreements with Islam per se...
I'd say it is on par with Paulians constantly quoting Paul to justify their understanding of Christs teachings.
I always go right back to the source...
The rest is just bunkem...
As regards the origin of the crusades..I stand by what I said..I just can't remember the name of the loony Caliphate who brought the house tumbling down..
He got the Big A pretty quickly..but not before the damage was already done..
Sal'a-din doesn't make any headlines till much later..
& was an original Iraqi son from the neighbourhood of taqrit...or so the story goes...
Maybe we live in a different century. In mine, a bunch of racist nutters in one geographical location in Europe managed to gain power of a country and attempted a systematic genocide of the Jews. The whole civilized world (it was civilized then - not in Bush's terms) united to defeat this menace and did so saving millions of lives of people of all races.
But you're just talking about Jews aren't you....
Um, Seg. If my recollection serves me well, most of the world didn't know about the Jewish Holocaust until near the War's end. And those that did were directly or indirectly aiding the Nazis. Hell the German people didn't even know about the mass murders, sure they knew Jews were taken away but were told that they were being sent to cities and work camps. Even so, the US would be hard pressed to get involved without the same sort of media pressure that exists today. The general public would never have known even if the Fed. gov did. Hell, the US wanted as little involvement in this mess. We sold War goods to our allies and sent advisors, little else. It was Pearl Harbor and Hitler's declaration of War that woke us up. So then, only then did we call down the thunder of the US military, cuz we knew if that the Brits fell, we would be a dacade or less from having a Nazi Eagle and Nazi Schwatztika hanging in DC. The US didn't give a rats ass about the Jews at that time. We were trying to save our asses from a two front invasion with no backup.
" This book is quite clear that Jews abnd Christians will go to paradise hence there is no point trying to convert them. In fact it's forbidden.
That's true..
" Veiling is not anywhere to be found in original Islamic codification - it is an early Coptic Christian custom later adopted."
Yes, I've mentioned this to muslim friends of mine & they were most suprised..but they shouldn't have been considering up until only 40 years ago, the Vatican still insisted all women put a veil on their heads when going into churches.
" The punishments of the Qu'ran are not original - in fact they are lifted wholesale from the OT."
And quite honestly I wish they'd dump them...
" Jesus is accepted (though not as God obviously), as is the virgin birth and the second coming is an article of faith..."
Paradoxically, the Quran also states that Christ is the one who will return to judge all in the day of judgement.
" I wonder why people never make a big deal of the 300 years of peace and tolerance that preceded that time in the area ? Or the 600 years of Jewish/Christian/Muslim society in Spain ?
I must find time to read more about this facinating period although I always thought the codefication of algebra happened in Syria
I must also say that one of the biggest impediments to Islam making more inroads into the West ( & other countries ) is its insistance that the Quran be only read or spoken in Arabic..Like the early Christians insisting the Holy Bible be only written & spoken in Latin.
The Guttenburg bible in german marked a real turning point in the church's control of faith...
I perfectly understand why ( the Islamists ) went down this path, ( too much fractious behaviour on the behalf of Christians & Jews fighting over split infinitives...) but it is a serious barrier all the same...as is they're treatment of women..but in this respect, Hindus, Buddhists & Christians & Jews are no different...
Strange to reflect our patriachal oppression of women cuts across all faiths...good old boys club.....
And a rapist is load better than a mass murderer. What's your point?
I dont have one, I was just trying to piss you off
About how preemptive some of Israel's actions actually were.
You mean after Egypt kicked out the UN buffer troops between Israel and the Sinai and Syrian troops massing on the border? Sounds like Israel made the right move to me.............
You mean after Egypt kicked out the UN buffer troops between Israel and the Sinai and Syrian troops massing on the border? Sounds like Israel made the right move to me.............
Um, Seg. If my recollection serves me well, most of the world didn't know about the Jewish Holocaust until near the War's end. And those that did were directly or indirectly aiding the Nazis. Hell the German people didn't even know about the mass murders, sure they knew Jews were taken away but were told that they were being sent to cities and work camps.
I won't comment for the moment on the larger issues dividing the posters to this thread. I will only note that the above comment is actually a disputed historical fact. Some have argued that ordinary Germans did know, or must have been willfully blind. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/st...439168,00.html
Also, there has been a fair bit of argument that at the senior government levels (though not necessarily at the public level) the West knew about the Holocaust quite early on.
Comments
Originally posted by bunge
Israel is lucky to have the U.S.A. on her side. Otherwise they might already have been forced to give it back.
Since when do we offer anything to the losers? Since when to we allow a country that attacks gain anything? Not since before Hitler. Is the U.S. going to be allowed to keep Afghanistan or Iraq?
Or perhaps the rest of the world should just lose patience with Israel?
And how exactly would Israel be forced to give it back? Israel is lucky to have a true friend. If you remember, it was Europe who originally armed israel, then turned its back on her when the Arabs starting threatening terrorist attacks and Arabs threatened a cut-off of oil.
Israel was attacked more than once and won each time. The only time Israel attacked first was preemptive.
The world should lose patience with israel when they have been trying to make peace for almost 10 years while at the same time seeing their women and children slaughtered by terrorists? Even the European reps were shocked when Arafat turned down israels last offer. Then he resorted to what he does best-killing innocents. I may not be religious but i know when I'm on the right side. Israel isnt perfect and i disagree with many things they do, but it doesnt mean the Palestinians are any better. ......................................
Originally posted by segovius
I know, I just meant you shouldn't have to. No-one needs to add such riders if they criticise say, Mugabe - why is Israel always seen as a special case ?
Agreed! Where are you from Segovius?
Originally posted by steve666
And how exactly would Israel be forced to give it back?
There are many means to which Israel could be forced to comply. U.N.-intervention is one way to go. Placing peace-keeping troops on palestinian soil effectively preventing Israeli defence forces from doing their military raids upon palestinian cities. A trade embargo would be another. No more Israeli fruit or technology export to Europe. That would hit Sharon and his Likud-party where it hurts: the warchest. After all, an army is a costsome organisation to run.
Originally posted by segovius
Well I'm living in Paris but originally from Wales. Havn't been in te K for years though...thank God !
Ah! The city of romance! What's your grief with the UK then?
Originally posted by segovius
with Lord Lucan and Elvis and some visiting space-brothers....
And the second coming of Jesus Christ bringing His Fathers blessing to the war just before making every Iraqi (except those who were member of the Baath party) christian.
Originally posted by KANE
There are many means to which Israel could be forced to comply. U.N.-intervention is one way to go. Placing peace-keeping troops on palestinian soil effectively preventing Israeli defence forces from doing their military raids upon palestinian cities. A trade embargo would be another. No more Israeli fruit or technology export to Europe. That would hit Sharon and his Likud-party where it hurts: the warchest. After all, an army is a costsome organisation to run.
And would the UN prevent palestinians from terrorizing Israeli civilians? And when the inevitable terrorist attack occurs, with the UN preventing Israeli forces from defending itself, then the UN would basically have become a terrorist organization itself. See the problem?
If there were to be a trade embargo everytime a country disagreed with another over an issue that would be ridiculous. There are many other countries that do things far worse than israel does, so why arent you propoding an embargo on them? In fact, Europe wants the embargo on Cuba ended even though its run by a brutal dictator. But he's a leftist so then it doesnt count, right?...........................
Originally posted by steve666
And how exactly would Israel be forced to give it back?
Like Saddam gave back Iraq.
Originally posted by steve666
Israel is lucky to have a true friend. If you remember, it was Europe who originally armed israel, then turned its back on her when the Arabs starting threatening terrorist attacks and Arabs threatened a cut-off of oil.
Because you think Europe is scum, Israel is good?
Originally posted by steve666
Israel was attacked more than once and won each time. The only time Israel attacked first was preemptive.
Even the Israeli politicians disagree with you.
Originally posted by steve666
Even the European reps were shocked when Arafat turned down israels last offer.
Did you take my advice and go look it up? No one who is at all informed about it thinks the Palestinians should accept it.
Originally posted by segovius
1) No-one can speak out against Israel without the 'R' word raising it's head.
Maybe because so often, that is the root cause of much of the criticisms.
Originally posted by segovius
2) The US is so much in bed with Israel that any US-based criticism is seen (painted) as an attack on the US rather than US policy.
Often they are.
Originally posted by segovius
3) Succesive US administrations are scared of Israel. Petrified. Or rather of DC Jewish lobbies. Note Powell's speech last week criticising the Wall: he said "Our friends in Israel must know if they have gone too far".
Our friends. I don't doubt they are friends but this is not diplomatic language in terms of crticising a nation's actions. Why not just say "Israel must know.." Because they're scared and want to sugar any pill....
nitpicking about diplomatic language?
Lots of lobbies, lots of special interest groups. So what.
Originally posted by segovius
4) There is a traditional anti-Arab/Muslim animus in the West in general and people have 'chosen sides'.
A ?traditional? anti-arab/muslim animus? Maybe if arab/muslims stopped blowing things up there wouldn?t be as much bad feelings. And yes, I know the west can shoulder much of the blame for bad relations, but it goes 2 ways and always has?Islam doesn?t exactly teach wonderful things about the Crusaders from the west.
Besides, there has also be a history of anti-jewish sentiment in the west..in case you missed the last century or so as an example.
Originally posted by segovius
The whole Jewish fundamentalist religious paradigm is founded on a racist postulate (that God would choose one people over all his other creation) and legitimises discrimination on racial grounds. Let's just call it what it is:
if it looks like racism, smells like racism and acts like racism then it's **** racism. Period, No excuses.
Well, then I guess you fit the bill.
To condemn Judaism as a racist belief system makes no sense and is more of the same shit people have been spewing about jews forever. They belief that God chose one people doesn?t mean the believe they are better in anyway than other races. In fact, how can it be racism when Judaism consists of a core belief that they were a group of people in a region, who different from other in the area based only on the belief in a one particular god? They saw them selves as the same ?race? as all the others around them, only that they had chosen to believe that their beliefs separate them from the others around them. How is this different that any other religion? As far as race goes, they see themselves as kin to other Semitic peoples.
Again, the law is wrong.
And you condemnation of Judaism looks, sounds and smells like racism?so by your own argument??
Oh and I think you'll find that no muslims were 'blowing things up' at that time either. Actually it doesn't cut both ways - it cuts one way till the people getting cut don't want to take it anymore and start fighting back - then people like you put the blame on them for fighting....
And another thing...Islam doesn't teach anything about the Crusades
Gee that's cute Segovious..neatly side-stepped how the Islamic empire got started in the first place..
Er... I seem to remember a lot of muslim armies killing and murdering non-believers..in many many cities through-out africa, & the middle east.
I know you want to sanitize Islamic history but the facts are most of their conquests were at the end of a sword..not a lollipop...
Ps your technically right about the crusades..but you haven't said anything about sharia law yet have you..?
Nor have you mentioned anything about the footage of Osamas' men shown kicking in doors and spraying the dummies with bullets..Oh & the point is those dummies were painted in black with huge unmistakable white crosses across their chests... to resemble the crusaders of old.
And as we all know the crusades were started as a result of a blockade ( by the caliph ) of any holy pilgrimages by christians to Jerusalem.
Originally posted by segovius
That's one of your most incisive posts yet actually aquafire
Sedge, you never replied to my other post..re Roman history in the year zero..?
Originally posted by segovius
And more often they're not.
Opinion..I will say as easily that more often they are. In fact, usually the are.
Originally posted by segovius
Btw - do you really believe there were 'wonderul things' in the Crusades or do you just not know about the Jews burned alive in the synagogues ? I know you must have heard about dead muslims and they don't count but....
Oh and I think you'll find that no muslims were 'blowing things up' at that time either. Actually it doesn't cut both ways - it cuts one way till the people getting cut don't want to take it anymore and start fighting back - then people like you put the blame on them for fighting....
Keep trying to paint muslim as victims. It always easier to do so for the losing side. As much as you wish to lay all guilt on the west, Islam was sweeping across the world, usually at the point of a sword. It started with bloodshed to build and continued.
Originally posted by segovius
And another thing...Islam doesn't teach anything about the Crusades, it was formulated as a system before they got underway. In fact, the purpose of those Crusades was to eradicate it.
To erradicate a rivial regligion that was bend on assmilating others, by word or sword? You mean they responded in kind?..bastards.
Originally posted by segovius
Maybe we live in a different century. In mine, a bunch of racist nutters in one geographical location in Europe managed to gain power of a country and attempted a systematic genocide of the Jews. The whole civilized world (it was civilized then - not in Bush's terms) united to defeat this menace and did so saving millions of lives of people of all races.
In mine, anti-semitism has been around a long, long time. Lots of examples of it around. Guess if you willfully ignore it, then it doesn't exist. You world must be nice. I am sure you'd prefer a few less jews, but....
Originally posted by segovius
But you're just talking about Jews aren't you....
duh, you are quick today. I was talking about just the jews...much as you were talking about just arab/muslims. Snide comments about people who see the anti-semitism in you, doesn't discredit the accusation.
Originally posted by segovius
You guess wrong - maybe time to give up the guesswork and focus on facts. If that's too hard you could try listening to people. Failing that then try to stop the insults.
Boyo, it's no guess. I am sure you can sing praises on all the wonderful races on earth, I am also sure you are an rabid anti-semite. You hatred is obvious, deny as you will.
Originally posted by segovius
Is that why Moses massacred tens of thousands of Midianites (Num 31:1-18 )
Murder of the Egyptians to free the Jews (Exodus 7:3 on)
God sends a plague to kill 24,000 people because of mixing with the Midianites (Num 25: 6-9)
More Midianite slaughter (Judges 7:2,9,22)
Total genocide of Amelikites (1 Samuel 15: 8 )
gasp! warfare at a time it was needed for survival...brutish jews!!!kill 'em all!!!
Originally posted by segovius
But enough of contradictory and nonsensical myths. Basically if I said that God had chosen the white race as a 'special people' but that my belief in this was just a religious one and don't worry about the fact that my religion engages in wholesale slaughter of other races, really we feel akin to them...well, you get the picture.
No, lets say he choose a small group from within a race...jews weren't a race. Not even jews then. They were a sect of 'semitic' people. Call it racist all you like, but singling Judaism out as a fundamentally racist belief system shows your true colours.
Err no, you've twisted my argument so much that I think I'll let you keep it - I've got plenty more..... [/B][/QUOTE]
You remember ?? I had you pegged as a lot younger than that Aqua
What was Sal'a-din like ? He's always been a particular fave of mine ! [QUOTE]
And here I was thinking you knew King Arthur (pax arturos ) Didn't he live somewhere near Whopping station..two stops past Barking...
Yes, your reference to Islamic morality & christian morality is a thorny one.. Should we judge others by our moral standards..Should they judge us by theirs.
Throws up a whole bunch of issues Vizaviz UN charter stuff..
"...oh...I've got to say something about Shari'a law haven't I ? Umm...how about not in accordance with the practice of Muhammad ? "
Yes the interpretation of the Koran & it's codefication in strict Sharia Law is probably the corner stone of most peoples' disagreements with Islam per se...
I'd say it is on par with Paulians constantly quoting Paul to justify their understanding of Christs teachings.
I always go right back to the source...
The rest is just bunkem...
As regards the origin of the crusades..I stand by what I said..I just can't remember the name of the loony Caliphate who brought the house tumbling down..
He got the Big A pretty quickly..but not before the damage was already done..
Sal'a-din doesn't make any headlines till much later..
& was an original Iraqi son from the neighbourhood of taqrit...or so the story goes...
[B]<Like Saddam gave back Iraq.<
That would require Europe to act militarily bwahahahahaha
>Because you think Europe is scum, Israel is good?<
Israel is loads better than Europe
>Even the Israeli politicians disagree with you.<
About what?
originally posted by segovious
Maybe we live in a different century. In mine, a bunch of racist nutters in one geographical location in Europe managed to gain power of a country and attempted a systematic genocide of the Jews. The whole civilized world (it was civilized then - not in Bush's terms) united to defeat this menace and did so saving millions of lives of people of all races.
But you're just talking about Jews aren't you....
Um, Seg. If my recollection serves me well, most of the world didn't know about the Jewish Holocaust until near the War's end. And those that did were directly or indirectly aiding the Nazis. Hell the German people didn't even know about the mass murders, sure they knew Jews were taken away but were told that they were being sent to cities and work camps. Even so, the US would be hard pressed to get involved without the same sort of media pressure that exists today. The general public would never have known even if the Fed. gov did. Hell, the US wanted as little involvement in this mess. We sold War goods to our allies and sent advisors, little else. It was Pearl Harbor and Hitler's declaration of War that woke us up. So then, only then did we call down the thunder of the US military, cuz we knew if that the Brits fell, we would be a dacade or less from having a Nazi Eagle and Nazi Schwatztika hanging in DC. The US didn't give a rats ass about the Jews at that time. We were trying to save our asses from a two front invasion with no backup.
" This book is quite clear that Jews abnd Christians will go to paradise hence there is no point trying to convert them. In fact it's forbidden.
That's true..
" Veiling is not anywhere to be found in original Islamic codification - it is an early Coptic Christian custom later adopted."
Yes, I've mentioned this to muslim friends of mine & they were most suprised..but they shouldn't have been considering up until only 40 years ago, the Vatican still insisted all women put a veil on their heads when going into churches.
" The punishments of the Qu'ran are not original - in fact they are lifted wholesale from the OT."
And quite honestly I wish they'd dump them...
" Jesus is accepted (though not as God obviously), as is the virgin birth and the second coming is an article of faith..."
Paradoxically, the Quran also states that Christ is the one who will return to judge all in the day of judgement.
" I wonder why people never make a big deal of the 300 years of peace and tolerance that preceded that time in the area ? Or the 600 years of Jewish/Christian/Muslim society in Spain ?
I must find time to read more about this facinating period although I always thought the codefication of algebra happened in Syria
I must also say that one of the biggest impediments to Islam making more inroads into the West ( & other countries ) is its insistance that the Quran be only read or spoken in Arabic..Like the early Christians insisting the Holy Bible be only written & spoken in Latin.
The Guttenburg bible in german marked a real turning point in the church's control of faith...
I perfectly understand why ( the Islamists ) went down this path, ( too much fractious behaviour on the behalf of Christians & Jews fighting over split infinitives...) but it is a serious barrier all the same...as is they're treatment of women..but in this respect, Hindus, Buddhists & Christians & Jews are no different...
Strange to reflect our patriachal oppression of women cuts across all faiths...good old boys club.....
Originally posted by steve666
Israel is loads better than Europe [/B]
And a rapist is load better than a mass murderer. What's your point?
Originally posted by steve666
>Even the Israeli politicians disagree with you.<
About what? [/B]
About how preemptive some of Israel's actions actually were.
Originally posted by segovius
I'll say goodbye now as you're becoming boring/repetitive.
Some parting advice though...it cheapens your cause to play the racist card 100% of the time.
And yet, here it is that you played it first...but managed to lump Judaism and Israel in your blanket accusations of racism.
Originally posted by bunge
And a rapist is load better than a mass murderer. What's your point?
I dont have one, I was just trying to piss you off
About how preemptive some of Israel's actions actually were.
You mean after Egypt kicked out the UN buffer troops between Israel and the Sinai and Syrian troops massing on the border? Sounds like Israel made the right move to me.............
Originally posted by steve666
You mean after Egypt kicked out the UN buffer troops between Israel and the Sinai and Syrian troops massing on the border? Sounds like Israel made the right move to me.............
Israel disagrees.
Originally posted by LiquidR
Um, Seg. If my recollection serves me well, most of the world didn't know about the Jewish Holocaust until near the War's end. And those that did were directly or indirectly aiding the Nazis. Hell the German people didn't even know about the mass murders, sure they knew Jews were taken away but were told that they were being sent to cities and work camps.
I won't comment for the moment on the larger issues dividing the posters to this thread. I will only note that the above comment is actually a disputed historical fact. Some have argued that ordinary Germans did know, or must have been willfully blind. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/st...439168,00.html
Also, there has been a fair bit of argument that at the senior government levels (though not necessarily at the public level) the West knew about the Holocaust quite early on.
http://www.jewishsf.com/bk970523/usknew.htm http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...2/160032.shtml