Well then, what if bMac = very inexpensive, G3-based NetBoot clients?
I can't help point out, again, that an early version of the original iMac didn't have a hard drive (according to Steve, in an interview about the iMac). And remember Steve netbooting 50 of them from a PowerMac way back in the day?
The inexpensive, G3-based NetBoot client has existed within Apple since about 1997. They've just been waiting for the circumstances to be right for its release. (Although I imagine it'll end up with a hard drive anyway.)
What Apple needs to provide is a compact, quiet machine that meets industrial ergonomics standards at an attractive price point. If it's easily serviceable, as the Xserve is, that would be a major bonus. Other than that, I don't think business users give a damn if it comes in white plastic or not. Many of them might even find the AIO format attractive - if one breaks, you just pick it up, plop down a replacement, and take the broken one back to be fixed. Deployment and replacement are trivially easy, and the number of hardware configurations IT and any internal development staff have to support approaches one.
There are circumstances where expandability is a minus: If you have a lot of trade secrets or sensitive data, you don't want recordable drives or easily removable drives. The FBI was contemplating mass purchases of iMacs precisely because there was no floppy drive, nor any means of getting data off the machine, nor any easy way to get at the guts of the machine.
For the near future, I think the Enterprise division will be more focused on software than hardware. Corporations want solutions, hardware may not be the best foothold.
I agree that a cheap computer that is more focused on cost than design would do well in that market. A lot of people complain when Apple releases computers without upgradeable parts (PCI, Video, etc.) but in the corporate world it is even less likely that your computer will be upgraded. How many towers sitting under desks in the corporate world have no extra cards in their slots? If the computer has on board ethernet and a reasonable video card, that is all that is needed. Your local hard drive is for some booting and applications. Most files are stored on the network. Computers (even what Apple could make a Mac for) under $1000 could easily satsify most of the corporate world.
Apple setting up an Enterprise Sales Team is not about Xserves , eMacs and Powermacs.
It is about creating a channel for future Software and Hardware products from not only Apple but 3rd Parties.
We can crow endlessly about Hardware but the more important factor in the Enteprise is Software.
1. We know Apple is making steps toward making themselves more suitable for Enteprise Application.
a) OSX is a robust Unixlike OS with modern Networking.
b) Xserve, Xraid and the new PowerMac G5 give Apple a boost
in hardware coverage.
2. Possibility of an Enteprise Sales Team.
a) Focus on Apple and 3rd Party Hardware suitable for use
in a Corporate Setting.
b) Create a Channel that leverages Outbound Sales and the
Apple Store for Business.
c) Woo "Must Have" Programs to the platforms to
strengthen this initiative.
I think it's possible that, given the EST success, we may see Hardware that is ONLY available to businesses. Similar to Apples intention to initially keep the eMac Educational only. Once the Software is available tailoring Hardware to match will be a piece of cake comparitively.
Of course the eMac and iMac are better looking than any PC. I'm not saying otherwise. The problem remains that they are obviously consumer machines ill-suited for a "corporate takeover" by Apple.
I'm talking about something far deeper than switching to black plastic. I'm talking about a small aluminum box that embodies the "seriousness" of the Power Mac G5 and Xserve, while remaining low cost and low maintenance.
If Apple is serious about this new Enterprise Sales group, then they need a new client desktop box to match the Xserve. Remember, Mac hostile IT departments have to be wooed. The eMac and iMac (rightly or wrongly) embody everything these guys hate about Macs. The Xserve has opened the corporate door. The bMac must blow it off its hinges.
Well I think that I follow your logic now, and agree to some point, but it annoys me to think that they would have to put in design elements to satisify the sort of IT guys that I am thinking about. Let it still be an Apple...not some sort of PC wannabe.
And Amorph makes a good point about the AIO format being a good one for many companies. Perhaps not the current iMac or eMac (although I continue to like the eMac, and its price), but something along the same lines and designed specifically for enterprise. I am not sure what the guts should be, but certainly a G5 is not necessary for most work stations.
Also, it's important to keep in mind that Apple has tried really hard to make its server talk to everything easily, so although I'm sure Apple would be tickled pink to see 250,000 iMacs ordered with a rackful of Xserves, they aren't forcing the issue. The genius of Apple's current strategy is that you can order an Xserve (or forty-two), and... use it. With whatever you happen to have on the desktop. And with whatever else is purring away in the server room.
I agree with amorph, that the focus should be on servers first. It simply costs an enterprise too much to discard all of its software and replace it with some MaxOS X Software (think Outlook)... On the other hand, a server is replaced relatively easy.
For the client, the current eMac is not a good choice. At least here in Switzerland, no company would buy a CRT, even schools are buying TFTs.
The best solution would be a small headless computer the size of a Mac LC (remember anyone?) or a IIsi, which could be placed either vertically or horizontally on the desk. A small Harddrive, Ethernet, USB, FIrewire, that's it. A Cube looks nice, but I think it's not the perfect solution for an office desk.
After inquiring about the Xserve and Xserve RAID on the Apple website a couple of weeks ago, I received a call from Apple's Enterprise Group. The salesman reviewed my needs and set up a conference call later that afternoon with a Tech. I reviewed my needs in detail, and the Tech offered some suggestions. The Enterprise Group salesman then compiled an Xserve quote based on these suggestions. The quote showed very reasonable pricing because of some Apple discounts, and I was told that this would be the case through the end of August. I didn't bother asking if this was related to upcoming G5 Xserves, but I assume that it is.
No it isn't. It may cost three times a 128 MB Flash MP3 player, but the iPod isn't 128 MB, now is it? And its nice design and flawless synching are priceless.
As for the Enterprise group: I think that the group will sell soul-less, uninspired, beige boxes. The name says it all.
I don't think the eMac is a very good fit for corporations. I have tried to push it as a solution at my job and it has garnered NO interest. One of the biggest problems is the screen. My company lists a 19" as the standard for the Dell systems we order. Typically the Macs, which are used for graphics, get 21" screens. The eMac might be affordable, but it doesn't look like a good solution when compared to the Dell offerings.
The Apple group is going to push xServes, IMO. the want to leverage that unix power to people who know what it means.
An iMac as cheap as an iPod would make the iPod look a bit overpriced, don't you think?
Maybe, but I've had the cMac idea in my head for awhile now.
Business will snap up the G3, and G5 cMacs, amateur designers, the G4 and G5 ones, and light-level home users the G3, and G4 cMacs. $499, $609, can't be beat, even by HP.
Oh, and also, the cMac (I called it 'headless') will not have a display, so it's not an iMac.
Another idea I now have is for home users mostly: the iMac replacement set-up, where you could get an iMac, minus display, for $1,000 or $1,225, and use your old iMac display.
I am not sure that I follow. Are you talking about the 'look' of the eMac and iMac? In what way do they fail to fit the bill? I think that they look far better and more professional than just about any PC. Are beige box PCs professional-looking? Yuk. But if your objection is the whiteness of the Apple plastic, I am sure that Apple could arrange black plastic for their enterprise machines.
After inquiring about the Xserve and Xserve RAID on the Apple website a couple of weeks ago, I received a call from Apple's Enterprise Group. The salesman reviewed my needs and set up a conference call later that afternoon with a Tech. I reviewed my needs in detail, and the Tech offered some suggestions. The Enterprise Group salesman then compiled an Xserve quote based on these suggestions. The quote showed very reasonable pricing because of some Apple discounts, and I was told that this would be the case through the end of August. I didn't bother asking if this was related to upcoming G5 Xserves, but I assume that it is.
That was my experience with the Enterprise Group.
THAT is good to hear. One of the big problems we argued about years ago regarding Apple and Business was the need to develop an entirely new view of customer service and predictablility in large scale upgrade paths. They may be getting their act together on both fronts. IBM sure helps with the roadmap question marks in the minds of IT folks.
I too feel that productivity software needs to be beefed up a bit. Office is good and "open" apps with the unix foundation are also good!
I think it would also help to set the boxes up to use PC monitors since that is a big expense for any business moving to Macs.
Comments
Originally posted by dglow
Well then, what if bMac = very inexpensive, G3-based NetBoot clients?
I can't help point out, again, that an early version of the original iMac didn't have a hard drive (according to Steve, in an interview about the iMac). And remember Steve netbooting 50 of them from a PowerMac way back in the day?
The inexpensive, G3-based NetBoot client has existed within Apple since about 1997. They've just been waiting for the circumstances to be right for its release. (Although I imagine it'll end up with a hard drive anyway.)
What Apple needs to provide is a compact, quiet machine that meets industrial ergonomics standards at an attractive price point. If it's easily serviceable, as the Xserve is, that would be a major bonus. Other than that, I don't think business users give a damn if it comes in white plastic or not. Many of them might even find the AIO format attractive - if one breaks, you just pick it up, plop down a replacement, and take the broken one back to be fixed. Deployment and replacement are trivially easy, and the number of hardware configurations IT and any internal development staff have to support approaches one.
There are circumstances where expandability is a minus: If you have a lot of trade secrets or sensitive data, you don't want recordable drives or easily removable drives. The FBI was contemplating mass purchases of iMacs precisely because there was no floppy drive, nor any means of getting data off the machine, nor any easy way to get at the guts of the machine.
irfoton
Originally posted by applenut
The G5 is NOT suitable.
It's overkill, its large, its expensive....
the eMac is even worse.
Cheap MINItower is needed
I agree that a cheap computer that is more focused on cost than design would do well in that market. A lot of people complain when Apple releases computers without upgradeable parts (PCI, Video, etc.) but in the corporate world it is even less likely that your computer will be upgraded. How many towers sitting under desks in the corporate world have no extra cards in their slots? If the computer has on board ethernet and a reasonable video card, that is all that is needed. Your local hard drive is for some booting and applications. Most files are stored on the network. Computers (even what Apple could make a Mac for) under $1000 could easily satsify most of the corporate world.
Apple setting up an Enterprise Sales Team is not about Xserves , eMacs and Powermacs.
It is about creating a channel for future Software and Hardware products from not only Apple but 3rd Parties.
We can crow endlessly about Hardware but the more important factor in the Enteprise is Software.
1. We know Apple is making steps toward making themselves more suitable for Enteprise Application.
a) OSX is a robust Unixlike OS with modern Networking.
b) Xserve, Xraid and the new PowerMac G5 give Apple a boost
in hardware coverage.
2. Possibility of an Enteprise Sales Team.
a) Focus on Apple and 3rd Party Hardware suitable for use
in a Corporate Setting.
b) Create a Channel that leverages Outbound Sales and the
Apple Store for Business.
c) Woo "Must Have" Programs to the platforms to
strengthen this initiative.
I think it's possible that, given the EST success, we may see Hardware that is ONLY available to businesses. Similar to Apples intention to initially keep the eMac Educational only. Once the Software is available tailoring Hardware to match will be a piece of cake comparitively.
Originally posted by Ensign Pulver
Of course the eMac and iMac are better looking than any PC. I'm not saying otherwise. The problem remains that they are obviously consumer machines ill-suited for a "corporate takeover" by Apple.
I'm talking about something far deeper than switching to black plastic. I'm talking about a small aluminum box that embodies the "seriousness" of the Power Mac G5 and Xserve, while remaining low cost and low maintenance.
If Apple is serious about this new Enterprise Sales group, then they need a new client desktop box to match the Xserve. Remember, Mac hostile IT departments have to be wooed. The eMac and iMac (rightly or wrongly) embody everything these guys hate about Macs. The Xserve has opened the corporate door. The bMac must blow it off its hinges.
Well I think that I follow your logic now, and agree to some point, but it annoys me to think that they would have to put in design elements to satisify the sort of IT guys that I am thinking about. Let it still be an Apple...not some sort of PC wannabe.
And Amorph makes a good point about the AIO format being a good one for many companies. Perhaps not the current iMac or eMac (although I continue to like the eMac, and its price), but something along the same lines and designed specifically for enterprise. I am not sure what the guts should be, but certainly a G5 is not necessary for most work stations.
(e can also stand for enterprise.)
The only part that confuses me is that an Enterprise push would certainly require the sale of multiple Mac-compatible Office Suite licences...
[/Retreats to AppleOffice speculation thread in Software forum]
I agree with amorph, that the focus should be on servers first. It simply costs an enterprise too much to discard all of its software and replace it with some MaxOS X Software (think Outlook)... On the other hand, a server is replaced relatively easy.
For the client, the current eMac is not a good choice. At least here in Switzerland, no company would buy a CRT, even schools are buying TFTs.
The best solution would be a small headless computer the size of a Mac LC (remember anyone?) or a IIsi, which could be placed either vertically or horizontally on the desk. A small Harddrive, Ethernet, USB, FIrewire, that's it. A Cube looks nice, but I think it's not the perfect solution for an office desk.
That was my experience with the Enterprise Group.
Originally posted by ryaxnb
cMac ('Cheap Mac'); a headless iMac! $499 G3, $609 G4 (both 1Ghz), $1,725 1.5Ghz G5.
An iMac as cheap as an iPod would make the iPod look a bit overpriced, don't you think?
Originally posted by Tidris
An iMac as cheap as an iPod would make the iPod look a bit overpriced, don't you think?
The iPod IS overpriced!
Originally posted by Kernel Panic
The iPod IS overpriced!
No it isn't. It may cost three times a 128 MB Flash MP3 player, but the iPod isn't 128 MB, now is it?
As for the Enterprise group: I think that the group will sell soul-less, uninspired, beige boxes. The name says it all.
The Apple group is going to push xServes, IMO. the want to leverage that unix power to people who know what it means.
Originally posted by Tidris
An iMac as cheap as an iPod would make the iPod look a bit overpriced, don't you think?
Maybe, but I've had the cMac idea in my head for awhile now.
Business will snap up the G3, and G5 cMacs, amateur designers, the G4 and G5 ones, and light-level home users the G3, and G4 cMacs. $499, $609, can't be beat, even by HP.
Oh, and also, the cMac (I called it 'headless') will not have a display, so it's not an iMac.
Another idea I now have is for home users mostly: the iMac replacement set-up, where you could get an iMac, minus display, for $1,000 or $1,225, and use your old iMac display.
Originally posted by amarone
wow, two kernel panics in this thread!
You're right. Better call Blue Meanie...
Originally posted by Chinney
I am not sure that I follow. Are you talking about the 'look' of the eMac and iMac? In what way do they fail to fit the bill? I think that they look far better and more professional than just about any PC. Are beige box PCs professional-looking? Yuk. But if your objection is the whiteness of the Apple plastic, I am sure that Apple could arrange black plastic for their enterprise machines.
Bring Back Graphite!!!!!!
Originally posted by kernel_panic
After inquiring about the Xserve and Xserve RAID on the Apple website a couple of weeks ago, I received a call from Apple's Enterprise Group. The salesman reviewed my needs and set up a conference call later that afternoon with a Tech. I reviewed my needs in detail, and the Tech offered some suggestions. The Enterprise Group salesman then compiled an Xserve quote based on these suggestions. The quote showed very reasonable pricing because of some Apple discounts, and I was told that this would be the case through the end of August. I didn't bother asking if this was related to upcoming G5 Xserves, but I assume that it is.
That was my experience with the Enterprise Group.
THAT is good to hear. One of the big problems we argued about years ago regarding Apple and Business was the need to develop an entirely new view of customer service and predictablility in large scale upgrade paths. They may be getting their act together on both fronts. IBM sure helps with the roadmap question marks in the minds of IT folks.
I too feel that productivity software needs to be beefed up a bit. Office is good and "open" apps with the unix foundation are also good!
I think it would also help to set the boxes up to use PC monitors since that is a big expense for any business moving to Macs.
correct me if I am wrong but macs have been able to use pc monitors since the blue and white g3's.
And they ship a dvi to vga adaptor with all new g4's and presumably the g5.
Originally posted by pepsi
uhhhh
correct me if I am wrong but macs have been able to use pc monitors since the blue and white g3's.
And they ship a dvi to vga adaptor with all new g4's and presumably the g5.
Yep. And they (meaning 'Company X', not Apple) make adapters for the older PowerMacs, Quadras, etc. that don't.