I still really don't understand your point. What are you arguing. I am willing to listen if you are willing to try to explain yourself. Start from the beginning and explain your point.
Then we can have an intelligent discussion rather than just trying to prove each other wrong -- or as you put it -- 'correcting' me.
My point is that you should really find other reasons and justifications to determine that water-cooling is "better" (they are out there). By basing your justifications soley around air-cooling disadvantages, you shoot yourself in the foot because the water-cooling inevitably involves air-cooling at some point in the chain. It's pointless to just note the water-cooling part of the system because both systems will have to be present in the PC for it to work (and thus be subject to the pros and cons of both systems).
You should furthermore bother to increase your knowledge about heat transfer as it applies to the entire cooling system, not just the liquid part.
Your point isn't that I am wrong... your point is that I havn't explained it to you well enough? Or correctly?
Look through all the information I have posted and it is all there.
My job isn't to eplain everything that I have read or discovered. I have posted the information... it is up to you to do the research.
After all... I thought you were here to 'correct' me?
You need to state exactly what I am wrong about. How can we have a discussion if you won't make your point clear?
What you have basically just illustrated is that you are trolling me... you know I am right... you have no way to refute what I am arguing... so you are finding what ever you can to nitpick.
Oh geez! I haven't asked you to explain anything for my edification. I've read through your spiel. I gave my input. If you aren't responding to any input, other than your own, then this isn't really a discussion. It's just you expounding on the wonders of water-cooling. Take it FWIW. My guess is that you will still fail to acknowledge that what I have posted so far has exposed some rather fatal holes in your argument, so as to cause some degree of reconsideration on your part. So what really is the point of going on then? It's just a matter of public record at this point. Deal with it.
Just go back a few posts, and you'll have your answer.
Funny how you complain that I demand you to explain your argument, but then you turn around and do just that to me? Several times, at that! Come to think about it, you have been consistently guilty of everything you have accused others and myself of in this thread. Just give it up already. Go do some research, and come back with a better argument.
Try this, for example: come up with a way to show how water-cooling is "better" completely on the merits of that system, not respective of what air-cooling is/is not capable of. Then you will have your answer as to what situations it is good to use and others which it doesn't matter. I'm not going to waste my time explaining it to you because you will simply disregard it, and then ask me "what my point is" again.
Just go back a few posts, and you'll have your answer.
No... I don't know where you stand on anything... supposedly I am right yet I havn't explained myself correctly or put into words why I am right well enough?
Quote:
Funny how you complain that I demand you to explain your argument, but then you turn around and do just that to me?
I have stated what I believe... you havn't. All you are doing is correcting me, supposedly. Or telling me I need to study up on my physics. Gee thanks. That says a lot.
Quote:
Come to think about it, you have been consistently guilty of everything you have accused others and myself of in this thread.
How so?
Quote:
come up with a way to show how water-cooling is "better" completely on the merits of that system, not respective of what air-cooling is/is not capable of. Then you will have your answer as to what situations it is good to use and others which it doesn't matter. I'm not going to waste my time explaining it to you because you will simply disregard it, and then ask me "what my point is" again.
I thought you were here to correct me?
Why won't you simply state your point?
This is ridiculous. You want me to jump through hoops yet you won't even explain your argument? What made you so angry about this threead? I think that is the real issue. What is your beef with me?
I want you to explain your argument IN detail. What is your point?
9 fans rotating at a moderate speed will move more air than 1 fan running full speed, and will produce much less motor and air turbulance noise. Also, moving an amount of air through a large opening will result in less noise than moving the same amount of air through a small one.
Water cooling is a great way to get heat out of obscure areas (such as inside an engine), but you still have to get the heat out of the water. With an engine, you have a radiator which relies on the car moving through the air to remove the heat. When you're sitting still, a fan turns on to blow air past the radiator. In a PowerMac, you'd end up with a big radiator either on top that could count on convection currents (obviating the ability to put something on top of your computer) or on the back where you'd need the fans to draw the heat out... back where we started!
In a situation where you can efficiently move air past heat sinks, water doesn't offer much. It *is* used to some degree in laptops... there are heat pipes which draw heat away from the processor and pipe it to a heat sink near a fan and vent (at least, that's the way my Pismo cools!) The new PowerMac is engineered to draw air in the front, past components and straight out the back--no turning corners (turbulance=noise), no hot-spots, just a cheese-grator look (which I happen to like, btw)
Hope this helps...
[edit: added]P.S. For the record, if anyone could make water cooling practical and very cool, I'd put my money on Ives/Apple. Image a PowerMac with Wurlitzer juke-box bubble tubes! (hey, I'm a child of the seventies, so cut me some slack!)
Supercomputers (NOT the G4) often are semi-water-cooled
No... I don't know where you stand on anything... supposedly I am right yet I havn't explained myself correctly or put into words why I am right well enough?
I have stated what I believe... you havn't. All you are doing is correcting me, supposedly. Or telling me I need to study up on my physics. Gee thanks. That says a lot.
How so?
I thought you were here to correct me?
Why won't you simply state your point?
This is ridiculous. You want me to jump through hoops yet you won't even explain your argument? What made you so angry about this threead? I think that is the real issue. What is your beef with me?
I want you to explain your argument IN detail. What is your point?
I think I know what he means... Basically, somewhere in the cooling system, air-cooling has to happen. So instead of pointing out the disadvantages of air-cooling (which seem to be stuck there), point out the advantages of water-cooling. This will help you and others decide which one is better.
No... I don't know where you stand on anything... supposedly I am right yet I havn't explained myself correctly or put into words why I am right well enough?
I have stated what I believe... you havn't. All you are doing is correcting me, supposedly. Or telling me I need to study up on my physics. Gee thanks. That says a lot.
How so?
I thought you were here to correct me?
Why won't you simply state your point?
This is ridiculous. You want me to jump through hoops yet you won't even explain your argument? What made you so angry about this threead? I think that is the real issue. What is your beef with me?
I want you to explain your argument IN detail. What is your point?
OK... More explaining. It doesn't really matter where he stands; it doesn't affect his point. His point is that, apparently (I don't know much about this), you base your argument to much on air-cooling disadvantages. See my previous post. He doesn't really have an argument; he's just trying to explain that air-cooling is stuck there, so you need another argument, and that one is availiable, fortunately. As for "the Beef", he doesn't have any as far as I know. He just wants to let you know the facts, but it turned into an argument.
Thanks for destroying my thread man. I don't know what exactly I did to make you go on this rampage but whatever dude. Congratulations. You won.
Your delusions are endless. Go ask your moderator or administrator. He'll tell you that ryaxnb and Randycat99 are 2 entirely different posters (oh, but he'll be in on the conspiracy, too, right?). If you reread the latest posts, you'll note that it is not me who is angry or on a rampage at all. Get a grip and stop projecting!
Thanks for destroying my thread man. I don't know what exactly I did to make you go on this rampage but whatever dude. Congratulations. You won.
Sorry about that. Didn't realize I would cause havoc. Also, I am *not* Randycat (don't even know him, I think).
Note: Deleting & editing some of my older posts on this thread, to keep us happy. 'Nother note: I'm insterested in theat water-cooled PC... Anyone have more info?
Don't take that as directed towards you. He is suffering from some venting issues (no pun intended), and inadvertently put some misdirected anger at you.
Comments
Actually, I'm doing the "correcting".
I still really don't understand your point. What are you arguing. I am willing to listen if you are willing to try to explain yourself. Start from the beginning and explain your point.
Then we can have an intelligent discussion rather than just trying to prove each other wrong -- or as you put it -- 'correcting' me.
You should furthermore bother to increase your knowledge about heat transfer as it applies to the entire cooling system, not just the liquid part.
Look through all the information I have posted and it is all there.
My job isn't to eplain everything that I have read or discovered. I have posted the information... it is up to you to do the research.
After all... I thought you were here to 'correct' me?
You need to state exactly what I am wrong about. How can we have a discussion if you won't make your point clear?
What you have basically just illustrated is that you are trolling me... you know I am right... you have no way to refute what I am arguing... so you are finding what ever you can to nitpick.
You want me to explain everything to you yet you aren't even willing to explain your argument?
what I have posted so far has exposed some rather fatal holes in your argument
What is your point? Elaborate. Explain yourself. What is your argument?
Funny how you complain that I demand you to explain your argument, but then you turn around and do just that to me? Several times, at that! Come to think about it, you have been consistently guilty of everything you have accused others and myself of in this thread. Just give it up already. Go do some research, and come back with a better argument.
Try this, for example: come up with a way to show how water-cooling is "better" completely on the merits of that system, not respective of what air-cooling is/is not capable of. Then you will have your answer as to what situations it is good to use and others which it doesn't matter. I'm not going to waste my time explaining it to you because you will simply disregard it, and then ask me "what my point is" again.
Just go back a few posts, and you'll have your answer.
No... I don't know where you stand on anything... supposedly I am right yet I havn't explained myself correctly or put into words why I am right well enough?
Funny how you complain that I demand you to explain your argument, but then you turn around and do just that to me?
I have stated what I believe... you havn't. All you are doing is correcting me, supposedly. Or telling me I need to study up on my physics. Gee thanks. That says a lot.
Come to think about it, you have been consistently guilty of everything you have accused others and myself of in this thread.
How so?
come up with a way to show how water-cooling is "better" completely on the merits of that system, not respective of what air-cooling is/is not capable of. Then you will have your answer as to what situations it is good to use and others which it doesn't matter. I'm not going to waste my time explaining it to you because you will simply disregard it, and then ask me "what my point is" again.
I thought you were here to correct me?
Why won't you simply state your point?
This is ridiculous. You want me to jump through hoops yet you won't even explain your argument? What made you so angry about this threead? I think that is the real issue. What is your beef with me?
I want you to explain your argument IN detail. What is your point?
Originally posted by Fawkes
9 fans rotating at a moderate speed will move more air than 1 fan running full speed, and will produce much less motor and air turbulance noise. Also, moving an amount of air through a large opening will result in less noise than moving the same amount of air through a small one.
Water cooling is a great way to get heat out of obscure areas (such as inside an engine), but you still have to get the heat out of the water. With an engine, you have a radiator which relies on the car moving through the air to remove the heat. When you're sitting still, a fan turns on to blow air past the radiator. In a PowerMac, you'd end up with a big radiator either on top that could count on convection currents (obviating the ability to put something on top of your computer) or on the back where you'd need the fans to draw the heat out... back where we started!
In a situation where you can efficiently move air past heat sinks, water doesn't offer much. It *is* used to some degree in laptops... there are heat pipes which draw heat away from the processor and pipe it to a heat sink near a fan and vent (at least, that's the way my Pismo cools!) The new PowerMac is engineered to draw air in the front, past components and straight out the back--no turning corners (turbulance=noise), no hot-spots, just a cheese-grator look (which I happen to like, btw
Hope this helps...
[edit: added]P.S. For the record, if anyone could make water cooling practical and very cool, I'd put my money on Ives/Apple. Image a PowerMac with Wurlitzer juke-box bubble tubes!
Supercomputers (NOT the G4)
1. Tube systems, need huge A/C systems
2. Transistor computers get smaller, more cooling-efficent
3. Microsprocessors continue the trend
4. The 68030 is quite efficent
5. The Pentium and 68040 get hot
6. The 603e gets cool
7. The Pentium II gets hotter, the G3 gets cooler
8. The G4 gets hotter, but gets all right in notebooks anyway.
9. The P!!!-M gets cool.
9. The G5 is doing less than many P4 notebooks.
10. The Pentium M gets cooler.
Overall the situation now seems pretty good to me.
Originally posted by iSegway
No... I don't know where you stand on anything... supposedly I am right yet I havn't explained myself correctly or put into words why I am right well enough?
I have stated what I believe... you havn't. All you are doing is correcting me, supposedly. Or telling me I need to study up on my physics. Gee thanks. That says a lot.
How so?
I thought you were here to correct me?
Why won't you simply state your point?
This is ridiculous. You want me to jump through hoops yet you won't even explain your argument? What made you so angry about this threead? I think that is the real issue. What is your beef with me?
I want you to explain your argument IN detail. What is your point?
I think I know what he means... Basically, somewhere in the cooling system, air-cooling has to happen. So instead of pointing out the disadvantages of air-cooling (which seem to be stuck there), point out the advantages of water-cooling. This will help you and others decide which one is better.
Originally posted by iSegway
No... I don't know where you stand on anything... supposedly I am right yet I havn't explained myself correctly or put into words why I am right well enough?
I have stated what I believe... you havn't. All you are doing is correcting me, supposedly. Or telling me I need to study up on my physics. Gee thanks. That says a lot.
How so?
I thought you were here to correct me?
Why won't you simply state your point?
This is ridiculous. You want me to jump through hoops yet you won't even explain your argument? What made you so angry about this threead? I think that is the real issue. What is your beef with me?
I want you to explain your argument IN detail. What is your point?
OK... More explaining. It doesn't really matter where he stands; it doesn't affect his point. His point is that, apparently (I don't know much about this), you base your argument to much on air-cooling disadvantages. See my previous post. He doesn't really have an argument; he's just trying to explain that air-cooling is stuck there, so you need another argument, and that one is availiable, fortunately. As for "the Beef", he doesn't have any as far as I know. He just wants to let you know the facts, but it turned into an argument.
Thanks for destroying my thread man. I don't know what exactly I did to make you go on this rampage but whatever dude. Congratulations. You won.
Originally posted by groverat
600w!?
Are we sure Jon Ives isn't a frequent visitor of Tom's Hardware, HardOCP or ArsTechnica?
I highly doubt that as a designer he had input into the choice of power supply specs.
-- Mark
Originally posted by iSegway
ryaxnb = Randycat99
Thanks for destroying my thread man. I don't know what exactly I did to make you go on this rampage but whatever dude. Congratulations. You won.
Your delusions are endless. Go ask your moderator or administrator. He'll tell you that ryaxnb and Randycat99 are 2 entirely different posters (oh, but he'll be in on the conspiracy, too, right?). If you reread the latest posts, you'll note that it is not me who is angry or on a rampage at all. Get a grip and stop projecting!
Originally posted by iSegway
ryaxnb = Randycat99
Thanks for destroying my thread man. I don't know what exactly I did to make you go on this rampage but whatever dude. Congratulations. You won.
Sorry about that.
Note: Deleting & editing some of my older posts on this thread, to keep us happy. 'Nother note: I'm insterested in theat water-cooled PC... Anyone have more info?