Two Button Mouse "When Hell Freezes Over"

ensign pulver · September 18, 2003 3:18PM

From MacRumors Page 2:

"There have been some rumors about a 2-button mouse. I asked the [Apple] rep. about them. He said he was just at Apple for training on the new products (PowerBooks, G5, and Bluetooth peripherals). He was told that the rumors were false. He said that he was told, 'There will be a 2 button mouse when a) Jobs leaves Apple or b) when hell freezes over'."

I still believe that the new BT keyboard and mouse from Paris are the "white" "consumer" models and that Apple will intro "pro" aluminum models (with two buttons + scroll wheel) at MWSF 04. There will then be four lines of input devices. Cabled white in the box with eMacs and iMacs, cabled aluminum in the box with G5s, and then BT versions of both as CTO upgrades for anyone who wants them.

Maintaining four lines might seem like a lot, but at $69 a pop for the BT/Pro versions, the extra overhead will be worth it for Apple.

kraig911 · September 18, 2003 6:14PM

eh I'm fine personally using the one button mouse, but I hate it that apps now require them... like maya, shake, and all those sorts... its just getting wierd. I think that if they owned these apps, that require a 3 button mouse, they would offer one too.

msantti · September 18, 2003 7:05PM

Well, you can't just say its Steve Jobs.

Don't forget, Jobs was away from Apple for 10 years.

Apple still stuck with a 1 button mouse.

luca · September 18, 2003 7:08PM

But they didn't even add contextual menus until OS 8, which was in 1997 I believe? Was that already being done before Jobs came back? Is it possible that contextual menus wouldn't have even been implemented if their development hadn't started before Jobs returned?

neutrino23 · September 18, 2003 7:11PM

I'm happy with the one button mouse. If you want something more complicated you can get a

two button mouse

three button mouse

track ball with multiple buttons

tablet with buttons on the stylus

bluetooth cell phone

to control the cursor.

Take your pick.

ghost_user_name · September 18, 2003 7:48PM

I can't live without a two button optical mouse...

I work with Windows, linux, and MacOS on a daily basis and if I were only able to use a one button mouse I would die.

In windows a two button mouse is a must... (given)

In Linux on a x86 box a two button mouse helps when in KDE or Gnome... hell even with vt...

In Linux on a PPC (my iMac) using the puck mouse kills me... I HATE IT... so I trashed it for a two button optical mouse...

In MacOS (dad's iMac) the mouse helps when in photoshop and when using the finder...

amorph · September 18, 2003 8:03PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Luca Rescigno

But they didn't even add contextual menus until OS 8, which was in 1997 I believe? Was that already being done before Jobs came back? Is it possible that contextual menus wouldn't have even been implemented if their development hadn't started before Jobs returned?

Considering that Apple made the deliberate choice, post-Jobs, to add native support for right-clicking and scroll wheels so that your Windows-standard mouse "just works," no drivers necessary, the implication that Jobs is somehow adamantly opposed to anything that even implies multibutton mice is way off.

The NeXT platform shipped with two-button mice. The Mac ships with one button because that's part and parcel of the Mac's simple, elegant, beginner- and kid-friendly style (and, as others have pointed out, it's also a way to make sure that most applications hew to that style).

Shake and Maya are UNIX apps, which is where the three button mouse requirement comes in. It would not be at all easy to use a single-button mouse with an interface that assumes multi-button mice, but it would be no simpler to redesign that interface to only assume one button. Fortunately, if you can afford either of those applications, you can shell out a few bucks for a three button mouse...

luca · September 18, 2003 9:07PM

Yeah, you're right Amorph. If Jobs was that opposed to even the thought of multi-button mice, he wouldn't have allowed such good multibutton mouse support in OS X. Scroll-clicking a link in Safari even opens the link in a new tab/window (depending on how you've configured it), even if you haven't installed any drivers.

Incidentally, I just gave the Apple Mouse that came with my eMac to a friend of mine who just got a PowerBook G4 and didn't have a mouse with it. She's excited about her new computer and she has never used a Mac before but her parents bought it for her. Unfortunately, it's a 15" and it was purchased about a week before the update, but I don't think it'll make a huge difference to her.

carson o'genic · September 18, 2003 11:56PM

I completely agree with the one button mouse concept. First, as stated above, if you don't like it it cost less than $50 to fix the problem. Second, i think Apple's users are mostly consumers and schools. These folks don't need two buttons and usually don't know what to do with them. Ok, I hear you screaming what about all those professional users? Well, I think even some of them are use to and happy with one button or they have gone and bought their ten-button turbo wheel mouse.

I recently bought a new mouse and went with the multibutton just because it was cheaper. Two points to this story. One, the scroll wheel and second button go unused in our biology lab-bunch of PhD's etc (professional-maybe but not with computers?) Two, if Apple did come out with the two button mouse, who would buy it? They are sure to be more expensive than the rest so their sales would be low. OK, so you say bundle it with the G5's. Well, then their entire concept of how the user should interact with the computer begins to unravel. The cat is out of the bag! iMac owners want two buttons, but only a vocal few. Apple says "no" to protect the masses against button inflation, but they just can't win. So, I think Apple will not introduce a two button mouse because its eitherhas a low sales potential, it will make how one interfaces with the Mac too confusing or it will piss half the people off because they want a two button mouse with their eMac and a one button mouse with their G5.

Right click if you agree with me, left click if you don't.

edit: PS post #100!

luca · September 19, 2003 1:04AM

Actually I think if Apple made a two button scroll mouse, even if it were only available separately (not BTO) like the bluetooth one is now, it would probably sell well even if it cost $60 or more. A lot of Mac-fans (the ones who want two button mice) are willing to pay a lot extra on displays, speakers, and yes, mice, that match their setups. Sometimes you see guys with gray speakers, a black monitor, silver mouse, beige keyboard, and the lucite-and-chrome PowerMac. But other times you see people who have their $150 SoundSticks to match their $800 Studio Display, and so on. I think Apple should still bundle their 1 button mice with their computers, and just have two button mice as a separate item for sale at the store.

ensign pulver · September 19, 2003 4:08AM

You get it Luca.

Apple obviously knows that many of its customers will pay top dollar for well-integrated design. I have an excellent Kensington mouse that I love, and although it looks great it doesn't exactly match my Powerbook. A Jonathan Ive designed aluminum, optical, wireless, bluetooth, two-button, scrollwheel mouse would. Even at $69 I'd buy it in a heartbeat, and so would a lot of other people.

I remained convinced that the Paris mouse is just the first shot across the bow. At MWSF Apple will intro its aluminum, multi-button big brother and it will knock our socks off. There will be wired and unwired versions of both. Pro machines come bundled with the cabled AlMice, the consumer desktops come bundled with the cabled WhiteMice and then there are the BT versions of both for sale separately.

I think Steve's been sandbagging on the whole mouse thing anyway. He's very cleverly using Apple's "bad rep" with single button mice to secretly build a truly next gen input device. Somekind of new combo scrollwheel/jog shuttle design that elegantly interfaces with the dock and Expose. They won't go multi-button until they can do something fundamentally different. Something that gives you that wonderful forehead-slapping "how did I ever live without this" sensation.

MWSF 04 along with the Rev. B G5s and new displays. It'll happen.

peharri · September 19, 2003 6:21AM

I thought hell had already frozen over? Didn't that happen when OS X was released, a version of *Unix* for the world's most user friendly computer?

I don't agree with the implication that the one-button-only strategy doesn't harm anyone (as posted above) - it does cause problems for PowerBook and iBook users as we can't easily swap the one-button for a three-button. I go back to comments I've made in the past - Apple really could do with making the keyboard/trackpad assembly user swappable on those machines (it already would be with the keyboard on the TiBook at least if it wasn't for the proprietry connector) and encouraging third parties to produce alternatives.

matsu · September 19, 2003 9:42AM

Speaking as a recent switcher: (Well not too recent, really, since even before buying my PB, I made good use of a mac equipped grad lab.)

The single mouse button never bothered me, and I can say that in a number of situations, I prefer it. We always hear the argument about UI design and contextual menu abuse, but let me advance the ergonomic perspective.

I type, A LOT, shit, my messages here typically span a couple of hundred words. Ergos count. Mouse ergos count too, because basically the keyboard is superior to the mouse in scrolling and contextual menu stuff. But the mouse is so damn convenient that, if you have them, you end up using the scroll wheel and right mouse button despite their inferior ergonomics. On my PB it makes absolutely no difference having one mouse button. I scroll faster with the keys, spring loaded menus and ctrl clicks handle contextual stuff, and that's it, we're set, all the functionality of the two button scroll wheel mouse but with a much faster interface (the keyboard) and a more ergonomic and less straining design (again, the keyboard).

This is a little disconected when dealing with a desktop or external keyboard and mouse, but basically the argument still stands. If you keep your hands on the keyboard, like you're supposed to, then one mouse button is all you need, and it's better for your hands too.

rageous · September 19, 2003 9:47AM

I have a powerbook and I can easily swap a multibutton in for my single button.

I personally enjoy the one button. It is clean and sleek and a beautiful mouse. I can easily get done what I need to do using one button and the CTRL button.

That being said i still use my multibutton mouse more often, but that's really only because it has a trackball so I can keep my mouse stationary and not roll it all over my desk, which I find to be a very nice feature.

Either way, Apple should release an optional multibutton, but I don't think it's as dire a need as many pretend it to be.

m.o.s.t · September 19, 2003 10:35AM

"The Fix"

Why not offer a 2-button mouse for desktops and 2-button TrackPad for laptops*

But-

Have a switch on the bottom of the mouse / laptop

It would be a "3 stage switch"

Stage 1 : If you use the "right click button" it acts as if you pressed the "left button"

Stage 2 : If you use the "right click button" it has no effect -as if its "off"

Stage 3 : The Right Click feature is on and- If you use the "right click button" the mouse will respond as it should

Therefore: Beginners uses "stage 1"

Expert users: use "stage 3"

The mouse would be factory set as "stage 2"

Easy to impliment-- very low cost -- all your doing is creating an: open-a / open-b / closed circuit(all)

jbl · September 19, 2003 11:25AM

Quote:

Originally posted by M.O.S.T

"The Fix"

Why not offer a 2-button mouse for desktops and 2-button TrackPad for laptops*

But-

Have a switch on the bottom of the mouse / laptop

It would be a "3 stage switch"

Stage 1 : If you use the "right click button" it acts as if you pressed the "left button"

Stage 2 : If you use the "right click button" it has no effect -as if its "off"

Stage 3 : The Right Click feature is on and- If you use the "right click button" the mouse will respond as it should

Therefore: Beginners uses "stage 1"

Expert users: use "stage 3"

The mouse would be factory set as "stage 2"

Easy to impliment-- very low cost -- all your doing is creating an: open-a / open-b / closed circuit(all)

I was reading through this thread thinking the same thing and then the last post you already suggested it. Anyway, one change... I don't see the point of stage 2. It should just ship in stage 1. Anyone who needs stage 3 can figure out how to set it.

jimmac · September 19, 2003 1:06PM

Well once again I think this attitude by Apple is just silly. There are a lot of kids out there learning on a 2 button mouse with PCs. My friend bought me a Kensington wireless for my birthday. I will never go back as it makes things so much easier. I'm talking everyday things like moving stuff to the trash! Yes I know you can do this with keyboard commands but this is much simpler.

Apple is supposed to be the platform of ease of use.

I've noticed this attitude with other things on the Mac where Jobs doesn't give his customers what they want. Not for good reasons but silly stubborn reasons.

This stubborn attitude may sink Apple some day.

kickaha · September 19, 2003 1:40PM

Specious argument. Might as well move to a Start menu, since it's what everyone's used to.

If you're going to argue for a two-button mouse, do so on user interface reasons, not 'because it's what's the "standard"'. Otherwise, why are we using anything but Windows?

x x · September 19, 2003 5:15PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amorph

Fortunately, if you can afford either of those applications, you can shell out a few bucks for a three button mouse...

I can understand that, but I think if you are spending that much money on HW/SW then having to shell out a few extra bucks is just an unnecessary added cost for which I don't think there is any excuse.

x x · September 19, 2003 5:22PM

Why do people act as if operating on more than on button is complicated? Do you think little kids were frightened away from Nintendo because it had twice as many buttons as the Atari joystick? What about going to SNES? Do you think kids were saying, "Oh my! That has 3 times as many buttons as my NES controller and 6 times as many buttons as my Atari. I'll stick with the Atari."? What about moving to playstation?

Adding one extra button simply isn't adding complexity. It's only giving people more options, and eliminating one of the standing arguments by PC users as to why the don't like Macs.

amorph · September 19, 2003 6:44PM

Quote:

Originally posted by X X

I can understand that, but I think if you are spending that much money on HW/SW then having to shell out a few extra bucks is just an unnecessary added cost for which I don't think there is any excuse.

So you believe that Apple should offer a three button - not two button + scroll wheel, because that's not the UNIX standard - but a pure three button mouse with every Mac in order to accomodate Maya users?

People buy specialized mice for video games. They will not even blink at bringing over a three-button mouse for Maya. The percentage of sales of those applications going to Mac users is testimony to that.

As to your argument in your next post: 1) I've seen the difficulty first hand, and it's adults who have it, not kids; 2) there is, in fact, talk about how controllers have gotten too damn complicated; 3) you have ignored the extremely poor ergonomics of the multibutton mouse - perhaps your position would be different if you were losing money in lost productivity and treatment for RSI.

Two Button Mouse "When Hell Freezes Over"

Comments