12" G4 owners would you prefer a subnotebook?

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 40
    And don't forget that records will soon die out. Optical drives are still going to be around for quite a while.
  • Reply 22 of 40
    everything WILL get lighter and smaller. It's what happens with technology. Hadn't you noticed?



    My point is regardless of whether the current machines have an optical drive or not, I don't think we'll need one in the not so distant future.



    Anyone still missing the floppy?
  • Reply 23 of 40
    Unfortunately records probably don't have a whole lot of life in them - my mate in London is a stalwart vinyl fan, but even he's got a cd deck to play out from now. When people can release music on cd for less than the price of a bag of chips, why spend hundreds getting acetates or vinyl pressed?



    Anyway, that's a whole different kettle of fish....
  • Reply 24 of 40
    jbljbl Posts: 555member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Matsu

    Apple only makes fully functional computers,



    What happened to the iPod? I think that is Apple's biggest selling computer. Or do you only count fully functional computers as computers? Despite having a "comprimised keyboard, comprimised screen, comprimised performance, [...] and comprimised media (drive) functionality," making the iPod does not seem to have been "a questionable philosophy." Sure there were people who thought it would never sell. They were wrong. Is a 12" PBook a better mp3 player than an iPod? Sure if you don't count portability. It has an optical drive so you can rip songs. It has the ability to connect to the internet so that you can buy music at the iTMS. Etc. Etc. But nobody would suggest a 12" PBook as a substitute for a iPod because portability does matter. People want to be able to carry their music with them everyplace. People also want to be able to carry their pictures, pdfs and Keynote presentations with them everyplace. The fact that many people on these boards keep saying they want a tablet or subnotebook demonstrates this.
  • Reply 25 of 40
    matsumatsu Posts: 6,558member
    Don't be silly, Apple also makes the iSight, mice, keyboards, and software. The point is they DO NOT make a crippled computer (well, they make AIOs, but that's another story)



    The iPod is a device NOT a "computer", not a "hub" as it would be quite useless without a computer, as would any peripheral, medium, or application.



    When Apple brands something as a computer, they mean something which enables/organizes all those other devices/applications. When they make a computer, they make it fully functional.



    I don't say they can't make a sub-note, but it too would follow that philosophy as closely as possible.
  • Reply 26 of 40
    all hail pismo! when i travel with mine i take out out the battery and the optical drive... empty bays. how many people use their battery for anything but holding system state between locations anyway? sure there is the occasional need to do some work without any wires, but for most people i find that almost never happens.



    hmm i'd be interested to weigh my pismo with empty bays... maybe it's lighter than a 12". there's your subnotebook!



    does anyone have a pismo and a balance of some sort? (a kitchen scale will do.)
  • Reply 27 of 40
    aquaticaquatic Posts: 5,602member
    Damn! That's right! Why doesn't Apple use bays anymore! Especially ones that can take a battery so we can have two at once if we want! What happened!? That would solve this debate. Just have a bay or two in the 12" with a slightly smaller form factor.



    About the media: it's never going to disappear, get over it. Servers and networks go down, media is always there. Matsu hit the nail on the head. I have a LOT of stuff backed up, I burn a DVD or CD almost every day.
  • Reply 28 of 40
    Servers and networks go down and then come back. How many people really back up everything? I have too much stuff and not enough time for that. And I want to be able to get at it all the time.



    Guys, look forward, get excited, urm.... think different...?:



  • Reply 29 of 40
    jbljbl Posts: 555member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Matsu

    The iPod is a device NOT a "computer"...

    When Apple brands something as a computer, they mean something which enables/organizes all those other devices/applications. When they make a computer, they make it fully functional.





    The iPod is a computer. I don't really give a darn what Apple brands it as, and I don't care what Apple brands a future tablet/subnotebook as. Are PocketPC devices branded as computers? Does it matter?



    Look, I said what kind of device I would like. Apple currently makes devices that are "fully functional" but fail to have the one function I really want which is portability. They also make fully portable devices which have about 50% of the functionality I am interested in. You say Apple doesn't already make something that is in between the two so they can never make anything that is in between the two (that really seems to be all there is to your argument). All I am saying is that I hope you are wrong.
  • Reply 30 of 40
    kcmackcmac Posts: 1,051member
    I thought the 12" was a subnotebook.



    I'm a traveler. I also use my 12" as a desktop at work. It goes to and fro all day, every day.



    I have used computers with bays which seemed nice until I really used them for awhile. Need to use a CD drive? Dang, left it at the office. Or decided to travel light and left it at home.



    Plus I felt like I was always carrying around a bag of gadgets. The weight of the computer plus the external add-ons is the great myth of the uber subnotebook.



    Nope. This 12" really hits a sweetspot. I never worry about packing, leaving the office, etc. I just pick up my book and go. Got everything I need. And it always gets the comment of how small and cool it looks. I don't seem to even notice anymore until I run into the occasional 17" PB.



    Now if Apple could figure out how to install a lightweight retractable cord into the 12"PB, I would really have it all.
  • Reply 31 of 40
    aquaticaquatic Posts: 5,602member
    I am thinking ahead, but for now in the next 5 years PowerBooks need to keep the optical drive.
  • Reply 32 of 40
    matsumatsu Posts: 6,558member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by JBL

    The iPod is a computer. I don't really give a darn what Apple brands it as, and I don't care what Apple brands a future tablet/subnotebook as. Are PocketPC devices branded as computers? Does it matter?







    My god are you being thick today.



    It matters because of the use of the device. The iPod is a computer in the same sense that my brother's graphing calculator is a computer, or my cheap digital camera is a computer. It's a single purpose device that happens to have input, storage, and output, but it isn't a computer in the sense that any personal computer is a computer. Ergo, your cheap quips about "comprimised" facets of the iPod, are misdirected. Of course the imput, display and output of the iPod are not comprimised, IT ISN'T A COMPUTER, it's a storage/music device. The limits of the iPod are advantages that don't transfer to a "computer"
  • Reply 34 of 40
    jbljbl Posts: 555member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Matsu

    My god are you being thick today.



    Of course the imput, display and output of the iPod are not comprimised, IT ISN'T A COMPUTER, it's a storage/music device. The limits of the iPod are advantages that don't transfer to a "computer"




    I may be being thick, but I think you are being pretty thick also. It is pretty clear to me that the input to the iPod is compromised even if it is only a storage/music device. Input is clearly crippled relative to a "fully functional" computer. Display is somewhat compromised also (e.g., you can't see album art and your ability to sort and organize music just is not what it is in iTunes). The reason for these compromises is that people want to be able to listen to their music anyplace, and are willing to sacrifice a lot on input and a little on display in order to do that. I want the same for other files. I am willing to give up a lot on ease of input and some on quality of display for that.



    I am sorry if I got you all riled up calling the iPod a computer. My point was more that I don't care how Apple "brands" such a device. They can call it a PDA or a document reader or a subnotebook or a tablet. I just hope that someday they will look at all the people asking for handhelds, pdas, cell phones, and subnotebooks and decide to build something where they give up some of the input and display functionality of their computers and build something smaller.
  • Reply 35 of 40
    escherescher Posts: 1,811member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Matsu

    Bull, you use the optical of a laptop justa as often as you use the optical on a desktop.



    That's exactly the point, Matsu. I use the optical drive on my desktop exclusively for installing software, that means about twice a year. I really do not need or want an optical drive in my PowerBook.



    Quote:

    And so we return to the original question: would you prefer a subnote over a fully functional computer?



    I most definitely would! But as I've said on numerous occasions, including in my signature: At this point I'm happy to put up with the reasonable weight of the fully featured 12-inch PowerBook. I'd pick a 2 lbs heavier Mac notebook over a Wintel subnotebook any day.



    Quote:

    Apple is justified in selling the PB12 as a superior solution (one with real battery life and real computing power)



    Without doubt, the 12-inch PowerBook's long battery life and "real computing power" (including a full set of ports, now with DVI-out) are truly impressive. But I am confident that we could conceivably save another pound without giving up on those qualities (except for the optical drive, which I don't need or want).



    Quote:

    To make it smaller, they'd have to chuck a lot more than just the optical drive.



    That's a legitimate point. Even though I long for a subnotebook, I would rather use a 12-inch PowerBook than a subnotebook that makes too many compromises (especially on battery life).



    Quote:

    Once you get down to 2.5-3.5 lbs, you STILL need a bag, it's not like you can slip the machine into your pocket or purse.



    OK, Matsu. I give up.



    Quote:

    Originally posted by kcmac

    The weight of the computer plus the external add-ons is the great myth of the uber subnotebook. ...

    Nope. This 12" really hits a sweetspot.




    I've used my iBook/500, which was the first G3 laptop to weigh less than 5 lbs, for 2.5 years now. In that time, I've grown quite fond of Steve's famed "fully featured" laptop computer. But I still find myself thinking that it's too heavy. Anyway, I'll gladly live with the 12-inch, but will continue to lobby for an Apple sub-PowerBook for the sake of tradition.



    Escher
  • Reply 36 of 40
    matsumatsu Posts: 6,558member
    JBL,



    You make absolutely no sense. Would you level the same critique at your walkman or external HDD ??? No, of course not, BECAUSE...



    IT'S NOT A COMPUTER!!!



    It's a music player, you only need some selection buttons and a minimal display. It just needs to store and play music, anything else it does is a bonus, it's there 'cause it didn't cost anything to add, but it isn't crucial.



    We're not talking pure branding or some arbitrary naming convention, we're talking about user interface, product usage and design: the operant definition of "computer" emerges from a philosophy of usage, not from either some arbitray decsion, nor from a pure technical standpoint (a standpoint from which most of the products we use are indeed "computers") Still, from a practical standpoint we distinguish between a "computer" and the assorted electronica that we use. iPod is part of that electronica, like DV cams, like still cams, like watches, microwaves, radios, the cars we use, etc etc... Your arguments about it's limitations amount to saying that it should be a sort of PDA, or phone, critiquing it for what it isn't rather than for what it is -- poor reasoning, basically, just like the original and ridiculous analogy to the problem of sub-note versus full featured notebook.



    Escher, I'm thinking that right now the biggest size/weight influence is the battery, not the inclusion of optical media. A drive is pretty light, and if anything is more of a packaging problem than a weight issue. In that sense, this thread is incorrectly posited: eliminating the optical will not get you a laptop of half the thickness and weight. Such a machine is possible, but then it's probably possible to make the same machine, with an optical for only an few ounces more, and little if any actual volume (since the screen and keyboard still set the hard points for the footprint/external dimensions)



    Before you build a subnote, that's what you have to decide -- how much can you comprimise with regards to screen size and key pitch.



    Personally, the 12" is close to the limit for me, but I could be talked into an Xwide picturebook format machine that keeps the keyboard at the full size and recuts the dimensions of tha machine around that proportion. A quick eyeballing of the PB tells me that there's room to keep the optical even in such a layout.
  • Reply 37 of 40
    Doesn't the iPod calendar, address book or clock count for anything? 20 years ago you were lucky to get that with a 'computer'.
  • Reply 38 of 40
    aquaticaquatic Posts: 5,602member
    Quote:

    That's exactly the point, Matsu. I use the optical drive on my desktop exclusively for installing software, that means about twice a year. I really do not need or want an optical drive in my PowerBook.









    You are a minority Escher.



    People here seem to forget lots of people aren't on broadband. Hence media, for example.
  • Reply 39 of 40
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Aquatic

    You are a minority Escher.



    People here seem to forget lots of people aren't on broadband. Hence media, for example.




    Do you really buy software that often? Eshcher said he uses his optical drive about once a week - so you are saying you buy more than one program a week, correct? Ok, assuming you don't actually buy that much software, does that mean you buy a DVD every week (not even getting into the reason why someone would want to watch a DVD on a subnotebook)? Keep feeding your portable audio CD's? It seems to me that you are the minority, not Escher. I hardly ever use my optical drive on my portable, but I don't use it as a desktop replacement either.



    I really find it funny that people are getting so bent out of shape about this one issue. A sub-notebook is NOT a desktop replacement, and I dare-say it isn't even a notebook replacement. One advantage to an external optical drive is that it can be upgraded, something you can't do easily with a notebook. However, if you want a nice, small, light, full featured sub-notebook WITH an optical drive, please check out the Sony in my earlier post. In fact, I wish Apple would check it out too.
  • Reply 40 of 40
    nofeernofeer Posts: 2,422member
    The screen will get thinner with OLED, therefore much lighter, kodak has one on it's new camera, so it's a matter on time before it comes, maybe with the g5pb???

    Pretty soon they will have a 5gig usb keyfob gizmo using the xd card from i understand it can go as high as 8 gig theorectically, maybe with that you don't need a drive

    but if the screen was OLED, then thinner and much better battery life.

    i'm going to see the 12pb this weedend, the only thing i would consider would be an ibook but not till significant upgrades. so it's the 12 and an ipod.



    let's look at the whole package, get that brick tiny, then total weight goes down.
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