I agree with you 100 percent on that fact that we shouldn't seek our glory in this world. I wasn't trying to puff myself up I am just trying to explain my opinion on the matter. I don't understand your point about the Church being sinful..... Maybe you are missing my point and I am not trying to say that in a mean way. There are many sinful people in the Church now and there always have been. Look at the 12 Aposltes Jesus chose, hand picked by him!!! Peter denied him 3 times, Judas betrayed him and the list goes on. Jesus didn't leave the faith dependent on how well we lived our lives because if he did it would have been over the day he gave it to us. We are sinful people unfortunatley and that doesn't mean we should stop trying to better ourselves and lead more holy lives. The Church is holy because Jesus founded it and He is our faith making it holy.
The Church has three levels of solemnity in its teaching: (1) extraordinary and infallible; (2) ordinary and infallible; and (3) ordinary and fallible.
Why are these three categories of teaching important to know? One reason is that when the Church has taught error in the past it was in the third category.
Yes, I've seen this before and I guess it's at least a partial answer to #1 if I take your meaning to be that the church has NEVER corrected something that was previously thought anythiing more than ordinary and fallible. Not having extensive theological history available to me I can't check if that assertion is correct or not at the moment, but the explanations you presented already belie a great deal of wiggle room. In essence even if something is considered infalliable it can still be "clarified" at a later date. And by clarified, we mean, of course, re-interpreted. Let me change my first question...
1. Does the "Deposit of Faith" or any other church teaching stand without any interpretation?
2. If a new Pope and/or church council he appoints reinterprets scripture to allow for conception and he so decrees, what exactly would prevent him from enacting this? Would he be impeached?
And one left over from earlier posts-
3. If the birth control pill was so obviously against the core tenets of the church then why did it take the church so long to decide the issue?
#3 The teaching has always been held by the Church and was never a big issue until contraception became widespread and accepted. Every other Christian denomination before 1930 condemned the practice of contraception. Since then every Christian denomination has changed there stance on the issue accept for the Catholic Church. Once again a Church teaching can not be taught at one point and not held later on.... I hope you understand what I am getting at. With regards to your question about the church and teaching changing. The Church can come to a fuller understanding and knowledge of the teaching and learn more about it but it can not change it. I hope I am explaining that well enough.
The Deposit of Faith is a term consecrated by the first Vatican Council. It consists of that body of revelation given by Christ to the Apostles and their successors(The bishops in the Catholic Church around the world today can trace there roots back to one of the 12 Apostles. We call that Apostolic Succession)(The pope or the bishop of Rome is the successor to St. Peter for a list go to: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm) The word is found in I Tim. 6,20 Depositum custodi, "Keep safe what has been entrusted to you"
So something from the Deposit of Faith cannot change. We can grow in knowledge and understanding of it but it cannot change. (Example: Women can not be ordained a Catholic Priest and Artificial contraception will never be ok with the Catholic Church.) Many popes have spoken infallibally on both of these matters.
With your question on the Pope being impeached. I don't know what would happen with that situation but that won't happen because contraception is a infallibe teaching of the faith so it can't be changed. I am a Catholic so I don't believe that would ever happen because it is a teaching of the Church so I along with other Catholics who practice there faith don't believe it could be changed. I hope that answered it for you. I know these are touchy subjects to a lot of people I am not trying to judge or condemn anyone I am just stating information about them that I hold and know to be true.
Catholic Priest can be married just not in the Latin rite without a dispensation and that has nothing to do the papacy because celibacy is a practice of the Church and it can change. In the Eastern rites of the Catholic Church a lot of the priest are married so that is not the issue.
Ah... You know the Pope is the Bishop of Rome. A Bishop is a priest. Peter was a Priest. All of the 12 Apostles were priest and still are in heaven. I guess I don't quite understand what you are saying....
For #3. If the birth control pill was so obviously against the core tenets of the church then why did it take the church so long to decide the issue?...
Quote:
Originally posted by Teddy
#3 The teaching has always been held by the Church and was never a big issue until contraception became widespread and accepted. Every other Christian denomination before 1930 condemned the practice of contraception. Since then every Christian denomination has changed there stance on the issue accept for the Catholic Church. Once again a Church teaching can not be taught at one point and not held later on
I'm still not seeing an explanation of why it would take 8 years from the time the church convened a commision to study the pill to rule on it if it is such an obvious no-go.
For # 1. Does the "Deposit of Faith" or any other church teaching stand without any interpretation?...
Quote:
With regards to your question about the church and teaching changing. The Church can come to a fuller understanding and knowledge of the teaching and learn more about it but it can not change it. ... So something from the Deposit of Faith cannot change. We can grow in knowledge and understanding of it but it cannot change. (Example: Women can not be ordained a Catholic Priest and Artificial contraception will never be ok with the Catholic Church.) Many popes have spoken infallibally on both of these matters.
Forgive me if I fail to recognize the difference between "fuller understanding and knowledge" and "re-interpret" or "change their opinion". I hope you can appreciate how this sounds like your dancing around the issue.
Your choice of the forbidance of artificial contraception re-enforces my position as it is quite clear to anyone that no ancient writings ever detailed the particulars of this invention of the 20th century. Certianly the church never predicted it's arrival hundreds of yeas ago. Obviously, some interpretation is required.
Also, I'm afraid I need a definitive yes or no on whether the Deposit of Faith requires interpretatoin or not. Frankly, it's irrelevant whether the actual wording can change or not, it's how it is interpreted.
For # 2. If a new Pope and/or church council he appoints reinterprets scripture to allow for conception and he so decrees, what exactly would prevent him from enacting this? Would he be impeached?
Quote:
With your question on the Pope being impeached. I don't know what would happen with that situation but that won't happen because contraception is a infallibe teaching of the faith so it can't be changed. I am a Catholic so I don't believe that would ever happen because it is a teaching of the Church so I along with other Catholics who practice there faith don't believe it could be changed.
So to the best of your knowledge, there is no mechanism to over-rule the Pope or prevent him from declaring contraception ok?
Sorry I didn't understand what you meant by asking why it took so long for them to decide on it. I thought you were talking about why it wasn't stated right from the beginning Sorry. Anyways I am not sure why it took 8 years? That is a good question and I will research that.
I also see how you could understand the term "coming to a greater understanding and knowledge of something" as dancing around it. I am just giving you what I read in the Catechism. If you can find a teaching on faith and morals that is infallibaly defined and changed I would love to see it. Unfortunatley I don't have all the answers so I will keep doing my studies with my faith I sincerely appreciate your questions though because you are challenging me to come to a greater understanding of my faith which is always a good thing so I will keep studying and try to get back with you on those other two points. Thanks again and God Bless. Talk with you soon.
To answer your last question, " So to the best of your knowledge, there is no mechanism to over-rule the Pope or prevent him from declaring contraception ok?"
To the best of my knowledge a pope has never said a teaching of the Church infallibaly defined is ok after it was said to be not ok before. If that makes sense to you. Again if you could show me in history where that is happened I would love to see it. So no, a future Pope can not change the teaching on Contraception.
To answer your last question, " So to the best of your knowledge, there is no mechanism to over-rule the Pope or prevent him from declaring contraception ok?"
To the best of my knowledge a pope has never said a teaching of the Church infallibaly defined is ok after it was said to be not ok before. If that makes sense to you. Again if you could show me in history where that is happened I would love to see it. So no, a future Pope can not change the teaching on Contraception.
I truly hope you have a chance to address my misunderstandings to your responses to my other questions, but on this one...
I did not assert that any previous pope has done as such. Nor did I ask whether adherance to what you consider unalterable church law would prevent him from doing such. I simply asked that if the Pope did re-interpret some article of the "Deposit of Faith" to allow for contraception what mechanism in the church would stop him from doing so? Say the Pope was drugged, or had a brain tumor, or maybe he just saw the massive suffering around the world from the prohibition of birth control and decided the evidence brought "further knowledge" onto the interpretation of church dogma.
Whatever the reason, if the Pope decrees it, isn't it the law of the church?
Seriously, though. I remember when JP2 was decided upon, watching the news for the smoke to appear. It's an amazing ceremony, really.
I don't envy the church for the position they're in: the Pope is in for life and cannot be removed, and so if he goes insane or becomes horribly ill, there is nothing the church can do about it. I remember hearing a story on NPR about this a while back...that if JP2 didn't abdicate/step down, the church could be in for a real nightmare.
I guess it's sort of like if a member of the SCOTUS went completely mad...I don't think there's anything that could be done to remove him/her.
Comments
Originally posted by Teddy
The Church has three levels of solemnity in its teaching: (1) extraordinary and infallible; (2) ordinary and infallible; and (3) ordinary and fallible.
Why are these three categories of teaching important to know? One reason is that when the Church has taught error in the past it was in the third category.
Yes, I've seen this before and I guess it's at least a partial answer to #1 if I take your meaning to be that the church has NEVER corrected something that was previously thought anythiing more than ordinary and fallible. Not having extensive theological history available to me I can't check if that assertion is correct or not at the moment, but the explanations you presented already belie a great deal of wiggle room. In essence even if something is considered infalliable it can still be "clarified" at a later date. And by clarified, we mean, of course, re-interpreted. Let me change my first question...
1. Does the "Deposit of Faith" or any other church teaching stand without any interpretation?
And still waiting on #2-
2. If a new Pope and/or church council he appoints reinterprets scripture to allow for conception and he so decrees, what exactly would prevent him from enacting this? Would he be impeached?
And one left over from earlier posts-
3. If the birth control pill was so obviously against the core tenets of the church then why did it take the church so long to decide the issue?
#3 The teaching has always been held by the Church and was never a big issue until contraception became widespread and accepted. Every other Christian denomination before 1930 condemned the practice of contraception. Since then every Christian denomination has changed there stance on the issue accept for the Catholic Church. Once again a Church teaching can not be taught at one point and not held later on.... I hope you understand what I am getting at. With regards to your question about the church and teaching changing. The Church can come to a fuller understanding and knowledge of the teaching and learn more about it but it can not change it. I hope I am explaining that well enough.
The Deposit of Faith is a term consecrated by the first Vatican Council. It consists of that body of revelation given by Christ to the Apostles and their successors(The bishops in the Catholic Church around the world today can trace there roots back to one of the 12 Apostles. We call that Apostolic Succession)(The pope or the bishop of Rome is the successor to St. Peter for a list go to: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm) The word is found in I Tim. 6,20 Depositum custodi, "Keep safe what has been entrusted to you"
So something from the Deposit of Faith cannot change. We can grow in knowledge and understanding of it but it cannot change. (Example: Women can not be ordained a Catholic Priest and Artificial contraception will never be ok with the Catholic Church.) Many popes have spoken infallibally on both of these matters.
With your question on the Pope being impeached. I don't know what would happen with that situation but that won't happen because contraception is a infallibe teaching of the faith so it can't be changed. I am a Catholic so I don't believe that would ever happen because it is a teaching of the Church so I along with other Catholics who practice there faith don't believe it could be changed. I hope that answered it for you. I know these are touchy subjects to a lot of people I am not trying to judge or condemn anyone I am just stating information about them that I hold and know to be true.
Originally posted by Teddy
#3 The teaching has always been held by the Church and was never a big issue until contraception became widespread and accepted. Every other Christian denomination before 1930 condemned the practice of contraception. Since then every Christian denomination has changed there stance on the issue accept for the Catholic Church. Once again a Church teaching can not be taught at one point and not held later on
I'm still not seeing an explanation of why it would take 8 years from the time the church convened a commision to study the pill to rule on it if it is such an obvious no-go.
For # 1. Does the "Deposit of Faith" or any other church teaching stand without any interpretation?...
With regards to your question about the church and teaching changing. The Church can come to a fuller understanding and knowledge of the teaching and learn more about it but it can not change it. ... So something from the Deposit of Faith cannot change. We can grow in knowledge and understanding of it but it cannot change. (Example: Women can not be ordained a Catholic Priest and Artificial contraception will never be ok with the Catholic Church.) Many popes have spoken infallibally on both of these matters.
Forgive me if I fail to recognize the difference between "fuller understanding and knowledge" and "re-interpret" or "change their opinion". I hope you can appreciate how this sounds like your dancing around the issue.
Your choice of the forbidance of artificial contraception re-enforces my position as it is quite clear to anyone that no ancient writings ever detailed the particulars of this invention of the 20th century. Certianly the church never predicted it's arrival hundreds of yeas ago. Obviously, some interpretation is required.
Also, I'm afraid I need a definitive yes or no on whether the Deposit of Faith requires interpretatoin or not. Frankly, it's irrelevant whether the actual wording can change or not, it's how it is interpreted.
For # 2. If a new Pope and/or church council he appoints reinterprets scripture to allow for conception and he so decrees, what exactly would prevent him from enacting this? Would he be impeached?
With your question on the Pope being impeached. I don't know what would happen with that situation but that won't happen because contraception is a infallibe teaching of the faith so it can't be changed. I am a Catholic so I don't believe that would ever happen because it is a teaching of the Church so I along with other Catholics who practice there faith don't believe it could be changed.
So to the best of your knowledge, there is no mechanism to over-rule the Pope or prevent him from declaring contraception ok?
I also see how you could understand the term "coming to a greater understanding and knowledge of something" as dancing around it. I am just giving you what I read in the Catechism. If you can find a teaching on faith and morals that is infallibaly defined and changed I would love to see it. Unfortunatley I don't have all the answers so I will keep doing my studies with my faith
Teddy
To the best of my knowledge a pope has never said a teaching of the Church infallibaly defined is ok after it was said to be not ok before. If that makes sense to you. Again if you could show me in history where that is happened I would love to see it. So no, a future Pope can not change the teaching on Contraception.
Originally posted by Teddy
To answer your last question, " So to the best of your knowledge, there is no mechanism to over-rule the Pope or prevent him from declaring contraception ok?"
To the best of my knowledge a pope has never said a teaching of the Church infallibaly defined is ok after it was said to be not ok before. If that makes sense to you. Again if you could show me in history where that is happened I would love to see it. So no, a future Pope can not change the teaching on Contraception.
I truly hope you have a chance to address my misunderstandings to your responses to my other questions, but on this one...
I did not assert that any previous pope has done as such. Nor did I ask whether adherance to what you consider unalterable church law would prevent him from doing such. I simply asked that if the Pope did re-interpret some article of the "Deposit of Faith" to allow for contraception what mechanism in the church would stop him from doing so? Say the Pope was drugged, or had a brain tumor, or maybe he just saw the massive suffering around the world from the prohibition of birth control and decided the evidence brought "further knowledge" onto the interpretation of church dogma.
Whatever the reason, if the Pope decrees it, isn't it the law of the church?
Originally posted by segovius
We should have let it die but the wouldn't let it lie....
Vatican claims condoms don't stop AIDS
That's tantamount to manslaughter at the very least - get these guys behind bars NOW (well the ones that aren't already locked up anyway).
I think that the one who claimed that condoms have holes, have some holes int their brain ...
The fact that something is not proof at 100 % but only at 99,99999 % , is not a reason to avoid it.
As a doctor i may have aids, just by blood contact with let's say my eyes or via needles wounds. Is it a reason to stop my job ?
Many people die for car accidents : should i avoid to take my car, and just walk ?
The vatican should not talk of a subject that they ignore : sex.
Originally posted by segovius
We should have let it die but the wouldn't let it lie....
Vatican claims condoms don't stop AIDS
That's tantamount to manslaughter at the very least - get these guys behind bars NOW (well the ones that aren't already locked up anyway).
You'd put people behind bars for free speech?
Cheers
Scott
Originally posted by segovius
They kill them instead don't they ?
Oof.
Seriously, though. I remember when JP2 was decided upon, watching the news for the smoke to appear. It's an amazing ceremony, really.
I don't envy the church for the position they're in: the Pope is in for life and cannot be removed, and so if he goes insane or becomes horribly ill, there is nothing the church can do about it. I remember hearing a story on NPR about this a while back...that if JP2 didn't abdicate/step down, the church could be in for a real nightmare.
I guess it's sort of like if a member of the SCOTUS went completely mad...I don't think there's anything that could be done to remove him/her.
Cheers
Scott