now THERE is a good question. serious home computing, PLUS mobility, versus sick home computing but no mobility.
I assume you mean a dual G4 PowerMac AND a G4 iBook for the family versus a PowerMac G5 alone? Seriously, there isn't a whole lot of home users that could justify using a PowerMac G5 at home. This is wicked power, versus the Dual PowerMac G4's decent speed.
I assume you mean a dual G4 PowerMac AND a G4 iBook for the family versus a PowerMac G5 alone? Seriously, there isn't a whole lot of home users that could justify using a PowerMac G5 at home. This is wicked power, versus the Dual PowerMac G4's decent speed.
well, let's use a decent power user -- not crazy fast, but more like myself. i use the adobe apps, office, macromedia, but don't do any 3d rendering, audio or video work. i'd think there's a fair numbder of folks like me. slightly more advanced than your average home user, but with modest expectations. owning my own business, i do need to occassionally give the keynote presentation at a meeting or conference. that's where the new ibook comes in.
don't forget, the dual g5 migth seem like an excessive amount of power for the home user, but SO MANY people have been conditioned to think that more mhz/ghz equals longer lifespan that they'll buy it thinking it'll stave off obsolescence a little longer. in some cases, that's true...
anyway, i still think a decent home station AND a decent mobile station offers versatility that far outwieghs powerhouses by themselves.
p.s. please excuse all these damn typos. the apple keyboard ust SUCKS in comparison to my old one. keys that repeat, go numb, or print with even the slightest pressure. GAH! i think i am getting a logitech one tonight, which should help.
anyway, i still think a decent home station AND a decent mobile station offers versatility that far outwieghs powerhouses by themselves.
Oh I completely agree. With more and more DV camcorders being sold, I think Apple would've made a BTO option for the Superdrive, but I spose that is what the PowerBook is for. Problem with that logic, and I can attest to it, is that the 12" PowerBook had way too small of a screen for a desktop replacement. I didn't want to buy a Ti 15" a while back and the only other option with a Superdrive was the 17" PowerBook. Guess what I bought?
Now, it seems more in line.
As for the dual, home station & laptop theory, I completely agree! I have a (old) B&W G3 for "home stuff" - Quicken, internet, mail, etc...The laptop for mobility and photo/video/html/database work, and my daughter has an older CRT iMac. It works out very well! I am surprised at how well the older macs I own work with Jaguar. But that is definately the way to go.
Heh, I'm still holding out hope for at least 3 tiers of laptops from Apple, plus, maybe 1 boutique type laptop system. Low-end iBook G4 (<$1300), mid-range Powerbook G4 ($1500 to $2200) and high-end Powerbook G5 (>$2500) would be a good range of notebooks for the faster growing laptop market.
now THERE is a good question. serious home computing, PLUS mobility, versus sick home computing but no mobility.
The G5 will likely last longer. It's kinda like a Blue & White G3 vs a Beige G3. Even though there's not that much speed difference, the B&W is lasting longer because it's a generation past the Beige G3. Make sense? Unlike the two computers used in my example, however, there is a significant speed difference between the G5 and the G4, so the G5 would last longer anyway.
There is precedent for Apple selling iBooks that have some overlap with the Powerbook line - this was the case up until the refresh of the Powerbooks this summer. Keep in mind that the highest iBook was running 900MHz G3 when the Powerbooks were starting at a G4 867MHz.
The current 12" G4 Powerbook will be impacted somewhat by the new iBook models, but I don't think that the 15" and 17" Powerbooks will be even remotely affected by the intro.
As well, do you really think Apple cares all that much if they sell more high end iBooks in place of the 12" Powerbook? It's not like the iBooks are being sold by another company. Yes, I'm oversimplifying - not considering profit margins, etc.
I also believe that the intro is a strong indicator that we will see either higher speed G4s or G5s in the Powerbook line in the near future. My definition of near future is within approx 6 months though.
Well, it seems that this bump in Apple offerings has more to do with the new OS release (thinking, 2 days) than worrying about overlap in certain models of their consumer and pro machines. Now Apple doesn't offer anything but a G4 and G5, just in time for Panther to show up. How's it run on a G3 anyway?
Bye Bye 12" combo drive. Whats the point. Since the powerbooks and ibooks are so close, I think new powerbooks will be here by February. HAve you noticed how limited the supply of PBs is. Maybe apple did not make to many ( no need to discount if there is not any left)
Just a point, there's no way in heck that the plastic case of the iBooks is anywhere near as durable as the aluminium shell of the Powerbooks. My PB goes through daily transport with aplomb and without scratching/scuffing. The plastic on magnesium frame of the iBooks might feel sturdier because it's a bit chunkier/heavier, but it isn't stronger by a long shot.
However, except for Apple's pig headed insistance on handicapping the video spanning capabilities, these new iBooks are the best value to come from Apple in a long long time. iMacs now look exceptionally bad!
However, except for Apple's pig headed insistance on handicapping the video spanning capabilities, these new iBooks are the best value to come from Apple in a long long time. iMacs now look exceptionally bad!
Agreed, Im wondering if indeed we get another iMac speed bump before MWSF? I dont have a problem with its price, but I certainly have a problem with its performance for its price?. Maybe we get both sorted at MWSF?.
Im thinking further speed bumps for the PB - Im just not sure Moto can deliver on faster 7447's, but G4's for PB's till maybe WWDC for G5 PB's - just me spit balling.
Heh, I'm still holding out hope for at least 3 tiers of laptops from Apple, plus, maybe 1 boutique type laptop system. Low-end iBook G4 (<$1300), mid-range Powerbook G4 ($1500 to $2200) and high-end Powerbook G5 (>$2500) would be a good range of notebooks for the faster growing laptop market.
THT reflects exacly my thoughts. Although I am generally with Fran441 concerning an early Powerbook G5 (non)release, I have some doubts on the G3-based iBooks and Powerbooks coexistence argument. Indeed, that happened when the G3 processor had a future, in portable computing at least. Now, what is the future of the G4 processor, especially when it comes to notebooks?
My lil theory is that the current powerbook updates were to test out some new ideas for the g5 pbook, see how they go then, as they've cut the prices of these powerbooks so much, throw in the G5 as the uberpowerbook for top end users for around $6-7000 Australian. The 867 Tibooks used to be about $7000 on release from memory, so i've wondered why these ones were so much cheaper ($4700 for the 1.25 15).
But some of ya'll have already beaten me to it.
so i'm just going to keep typing on this glorious 1.25 15 and luv it 4 eva
As the next peripheral for the powerbooks, a docking station or port replicator would be nice.
I hate to plug multiple wires in and out of the Powerbook. A port replicator will allow me to keep the the display, keyboard, mouse and other peripherals plugged in. just dock the PB when you come home or go to work and undock when you leave. It can recharge the battery while docked as well. Just like the iPod.
I'm sure that apple can build it right and make it look cool.
I doubt that the PowerBook G5's will be introduced at MacWorld - not unless Apple has already slated limited production for the current lineup, which is a possibility. Remember that the PowerBooks went overly long between revisions, especially the 15" which went for 10 months before the update on September 16, 2003. The 17" and 12" PowerBooks went for 8 months, although really only 6 months from the shipping of the 17". Rumors persisted that Moto was late and that was the reason for the delay. If the PowerBooks were originally meant to debut in July, which was a rumor, then a MWSF debut for the next generation is a possiblity. I think that if Apple can have an affordable, efficient, and relatively cool G5 Powerbook that can actually give at least 4 hours worth of productivity on one battery ready for MWSF then THEY WILL introduce no matter what the product cycle dictates - but that only applies if they can have them ready to go and ship relatively quickly.
More likely would be an introduction later in the year or for a March revision. The cool thing is that the iBooks were updated barely a month after the Powerbooks and are shipping at pretty much the same times (within weeks of each other)so there is the possibility that they could both be updated on the same timetable. That means that if there is a PowerBook revision in March/April that there may also be an iBook revision. This makes sense if Apple can pull it off - it means that the whole portable line can keep in step and update at the same time.
As for MWSF, I think we'll likely see a speedbump for the PowerMacs to Dual 3GHZ (yes, you heard that right; IBM tends to make overly conservative estimates, so I think the promise of one year by Steve was a conservative estimate - kind of an "at the latest, if everything goes wrong" - same goes for Steve's PowerBooks by the end of '04 - conservative estimate for if things don't work as we expect) and I also think we'll see a new G5 iMac with a redesign, as rumored. That would make MWSF pretty huge. I think we'll see iBook, PowerBook, and eMac revisions in March or April. By June, 4/6 of Apple's offerings will be G5 based (XServe included). I think we'll see the introduction of the G6 come MWSF 2005.
Well this was the year of the laptop, and I have a new thought on the "g5 powerbook"
The albooks came out in January, and the g5s were announced in June. What if the new enclosure was a springboard for the g5 powerbooks. And the g5 powerbooks have been testing through the year.
Maybe apple had a few goals during the year of the laptop:
1. see how a 12" g4 will sell
2. Test out higher power chips in powerbooks
3. Develop a new design to hold a new chip. (new enclosure is of course al)
5. waiting to intorduce panther powerbooks when a DVD+/-RW slot loading is availible (since panther supports +)
My guess is the 12" powerbook will be eliminated: the ibook g4s have effectively taken their spot in the lineup, with most of the same features (depending on sales of course) or the 12" book will be replaced by the 12" powerbook and the ibook is replaced with a 13-15" widescreen model.
Notice the ibooks needed minimal remodeling to fit the g4. Maybe the powerbooks have already been modeled for g5s, and they are waiting for cooling/battery results to match the current generaltion. Also the emacs must be going away, no usb 2.0 update: so there must be something to take their place in the low end (price drops on FP imacs?)
Or a new consumer desktop lineup.
1. cheap cubes: no built in monitors: byod (bring your own display)
2. imacs with g5s for the rest.
Or the line up could be reversed. With FP imacs at the low end, and cube like g5s for the middle, but don't need a powermac crowd. Imagine a mini g5 like tower. Maybe a rounded white cube with diagnal stripes. Optical, headphone, and media card readers in the front, Each side with 1 firewire and 3 usb, airport on one side. On the back: modem, speakers, ethernet, bluetooth option, audio in, microphone and extra firewire, usb, and of course dvi (dvi vga adapter included in box). Top has space for isight stand or something. Cube uses stripes for venting, and will double as a monitor stand. Inside the box: 2 free ram slots, one free pci. Lift off top for easy access for Pci, Ram, Airport.
One of those crazy twists inside my head tells me that Apple might have underestimated the impact of the PowerMac G5 introduction on its own product line. Howz dad?
rule 1: maximize low-end high-end distance.
rule 2: minimize difference within high-end and low-end
This kind of leads to an ideal internal product positioning (pic 1).
Now, since the introduction of the G5 tower, the PowerBook has been left orphaned. The recent update IMO didn?t really make up for it. Why? Weak battery life, compensating between cache levels, slow HD, dull CPU speed and ridiculously expensive BTO options (pic 2).
The soon to follow iMac upgrade seemed to make things even worse. The current iMac is all too eager to jump over the PowerBook?s horsepower: 1,25Ghz banging on the 1,33Ghz door (pic 3). Perhaps I should consider an iMac?
And for those who can?t because they MUST have portability, we now even have the new iBook as a respectable alternative (pic 4). Seems that Apple decided that closing the iBook gap with the PC market (and iMac) was more important than maintaining iBook and PowerBook at a distance. Well, that?s settled then, I am definitely buying the iBook!
There?s no denying; the PowerBook is in a tight spot. And if Apple introduces a revB PM in February, the gap with the PB will only become bigger. But Apple seems to have caught on to the fact that they should upgrade all products in the same class (quasi) simultaneously. Just now: iMac, eMac and iBook. For January / February: the PowerBook and PowerMac.
Thus, if the Powerbook G5 is expected but by the end of next year, I would expect a very serious PB update in Jan/Feb! Can it be anything else than a dual G4?
Thus, if the Powerbook G5 is expected but by the end of next year, I would expect a very serious PB update in Jan/Feb! Can it be anything else than a dual G4?
It's easy to see what you are saying, but you are only comparing horsepower, not what else is under the hood.
First of all, if Apple was to somehow go the route of a dual processor laptop, then *all* future laptops would be expected to have a dual processor option. That's not something they will do, even if they could engineer it.
Think of it this way: Let's say Apple managed to get 2 1.25 GHz G4s into the current 17" PowerBook. Then next year, Apple releases a 1.6 GHz PowerBook G5. We already know that people are saying the dual 1.25 GHz and dual 1.42 GHz G4 towers are 'faster' than the 1.6 GHz G5, so this would merely be an extension of that. Even if Apple could get a G5 into a laptop (which will be an engineering feat by itself), there's no way they are getting 2 into one.
The way I see it, Apple is going to have a period of time from now until late next year where the laptop lines are 'close' in terms of speed. But remember, if you want anything larger than a 14.1 screen, higher resolutions than 1024x768, a better graphics card then a Radeon 9000 w/32 MB VRAM, more than 640 MB RAM, a PC card slot, etc., you need to buy a PowerBook. I think the lines are different enough as it is to not present a problem.
We had the same problem with iMac FP G4s and the PowerMac G4 from January 2002 through June 23, 2003. So I don't think Apple sees it quite the way we do.
Comments
Originally posted by rok
here's a good question for all of you...
dual g5
OR
dual g4 AND g4 ibook
now THERE is a good question. serious home computing, PLUS mobility, versus sick home computing but no mobility.
I assume you mean a dual G4 PowerMac AND a G4 iBook for the family versus a PowerMac G5 alone? Seriously, there isn't a whole lot of home users that could justify using a PowerMac G5 at home. This is wicked power, versus the Dual PowerMac G4's decent speed.
Originally posted by Rhumgod
I assume you mean a dual G4 PowerMac AND a G4 iBook for the family versus a PowerMac G5 alone? Seriously, there isn't a whole lot of home users that could justify using a PowerMac G5 at home. This is wicked power, versus the Dual PowerMac G4's decent speed.
well, let's use a decent power user -- not crazy fast, but more like myself. i use the adobe apps, office, macromedia, but don't do any 3d rendering, audio or video work. i'd think there's a fair numbder of folks like me. slightly more advanced than your average home user, but with modest expectations. owning my own business, i do need to occassionally give the keynote presentation at a meeting or conference. that's where the new ibook comes in.
don't forget, the dual g5 migth seem like an excessive amount of power for the home user, but SO MANY people have been conditioned to think that more mhz/ghz equals longer lifespan that they'll buy it thinking it'll stave off obsolescence a little longer. in some cases, that's true...
anyway, i still think a decent home station AND a decent mobile station offers versatility that far outwieghs powerhouses by themselves.
p.s. please excuse all these damn typos. the apple keyboard ust SUCKS in comparison to my old one. keys that repeat, go numb, or print with even the slightest pressure. GAH! i think i am getting a logitech one tonight, which should help.
Originally posted by rok
anyway, i still think a decent home station AND a decent mobile station offers versatility that far outwieghs powerhouses by themselves.
Oh I completely agree. With more and more DV camcorders being sold, I think Apple would've made a BTO option for the Superdrive, but I spose that is what the PowerBook is for. Problem with that logic, and I can attest to it, is that the 12" PowerBook had way too small of a screen for a desktop replacement. I didn't want to buy a Ti 15" a while back and the only other option with a Superdrive was the 17" PowerBook. Guess what I bought?
Now, it seems more in line.
As for the dual, home station & laptop theory, I completely agree! I have a (old) B&W G3 for "home stuff" - Quicken, internet, mail, etc...The laptop for mobility and photo/video/html/database work, and my daughter has an older CRT iMac. It works out very well! I am surprised at how well the older macs I own work with Jaguar. But that is definately the way to go.
Originally posted by rok
here's a good question for all of you...
dual g5
OR
dual g4 AND g4 ibook
now THERE is a good question. serious home computing, PLUS mobility, versus sick home computing but no mobility.
The G5 will likely last longer. It's kinda like a Blue & White G3 vs a Beige G3. Even though there's not that much speed difference, the B&W is lasting longer because it's a generation past the Beige G3. Make sense? Unlike the two computers used in my example, however, there is a significant speed difference between the G5 and the G4, so the G5 would last longer anyway.
The current 12" G4 Powerbook will be impacted somewhat by the new iBook models, but I don't think that the 15" and 17" Powerbooks will be even remotely affected by the intro.
As well, do you really think Apple cares all that much if they sell more high end iBooks in place of the 12" Powerbook? It's not like the iBooks are being sold by another company. Yes, I'm oversimplifying - not considering profit margins, etc.
I also believe that the intro is a strong indicator that we will see either higher speed G4s or G5s in the Powerbook line in the near future. My definition of near future is within approx 6 months though.
However, except for Apple's pig headed insistance on handicapping the video spanning capabilities, these new iBooks are the best value to come from Apple in a long long time. iMacs now look exceptionally bad!
Originally posted by Matsu
However, except for Apple's pig headed insistance on handicapping the video spanning capabilities, these new iBooks are the best value to come from Apple in a long long time. iMacs now look exceptionally bad!
Agreed, Im wondering if indeed we get another iMac speed bump before MWSF? I dont have a problem with its price, but I certainly have a problem with its performance for its price?. Maybe we get both sorted at MWSF?.
Im thinking further speed bumps for the PB - Im just not sure Moto can deliver on faster 7447's, but G4's for PB's till maybe WWDC for G5 PB's - just me spit balling.
Originally posted by THT
Heh, I'm still holding out hope for at least 3 tiers of laptops from Apple, plus, maybe 1 boutique type laptop system. Low-end iBook G4 (<$1300), mid-range Powerbook G4 ($1500 to $2200) and high-end Powerbook G5 (>$2500) would be a good range of notebooks for the faster growing laptop market.
THT reflects exacly my thoughts. Although I am generally with Fran441 concerning an early Powerbook G5 (non)release, I have some doubts on the G3-based iBooks and Powerbooks coexistence argument. Indeed, that happened when the G3 processor had a future, in portable computing at least. Now, what is the future of the G4 processor, especially when it comes to notebooks?
But some of ya'll have already beaten me to it.
so i'm just going to keep typing on this glorious 1.25 15 and luv it 4 eva
I hate to plug multiple wires in and out of the Powerbook. A port replicator will allow me to keep the the display, keyboard, mouse and other peripherals plugged in. just dock the PB when you come home or go to work and undock when you leave. It can recharge the battery while docked as well. Just like the iPod.
I'm sure that apple can build it right and make it look cool.
More likely would be an introduction later in the year or for a March revision. The cool thing is that the iBooks were updated barely a month after the Powerbooks and are shipping at pretty much the same times (within weeks of each other)so there is the possibility that they could both be updated on the same timetable. That means that if there is a PowerBook revision in March/April that there may also be an iBook revision. This makes sense if Apple can pull it off - it means that the whole portable line can keep in step and update at the same time.
As for MWSF, I think we'll likely see a speedbump for the PowerMacs to Dual 3GHZ (yes, you heard that right; IBM tends to make overly conservative estimates, so I think the promise of one year by Steve was a conservative estimate - kind of an "at the latest, if everything goes wrong" - same goes for Steve's PowerBooks by the end of '04 - conservative estimate for if things don't work as we expect) and I also think we'll see a new G5 iMac with a redesign, as rumored. That would make MWSF pretty huge. I think we'll see iBook, PowerBook, and eMac revisions in March or April. By June, 4/6 of Apple's offerings will be G5 based (XServe included). I think we'll see the introduction of the G6 come MWSF 2005.
The albooks came out in January, and the g5s were announced in June. What if the new enclosure was a springboard for the g5 powerbooks. And the g5 powerbooks have been testing through the year.
Maybe apple had a few goals during the year of the laptop:
1. see how a 12" g4 will sell
2. Test out higher power chips in powerbooks
3. Develop a new design to hold a new chip. (new enclosure is of course al)
4. maybe powerbooks will get smaller (ipod drive)
check out this tiny laptop
5. waiting to intorduce panther powerbooks when a DVD+/-RW slot loading is availible (since panther supports +)
My guess is the 12" powerbook will be eliminated: the ibook g4s have effectively taken their spot in the lineup, with most of the same features (depending on sales of course) or the 12" book will be replaced by the 12" powerbook and the ibook is replaced with a 13-15" widescreen model.
Notice the ibooks needed minimal remodeling to fit the g4. Maybe the powerbooks have already been modeled for g5s, and they are waiting for cooling/battery results to match the current generaltion. Also the emacs must be going away, no usb 2.0 update: so there must be something to take their place in the low end (price drops on FP imacs?)
Or a new consumer desktop lineup.
1. cheap cubes: no built in monitors: byod (bring your own display)
2. imacs with g5s for the rest.
Or the line up could be reversed. With FP imacs at the low end, and cube like g5s for the middle, but don't need a powermac crowd. Imagine a mini g5 like tower. Maybe a rounded white cube with diagnal stripes. Optical, headphone, and media card readers in the front, Each side with 1 firewire and 3 usb, airport on one side. On the back: modem, speakers, ethernet, bluetooth option, audio in, microphone and extra firewire, usb, and of course dvi (dvi vga adapter included in box). Top has space for isight stand or something. Cube uses stripes for venting, and will double as a monitor stand. Inside the box: 2 free ram slots, one free pci. Lift off top for easy access for Pci, Ram, Airport.
rule 1: maximize low-end high-end distance.
rule 2: minimize difference within high-end and low-end
This kind of leads to an ideal internal product positioning (pic 1).
Now, since the introduction of the G5 tower, the PowerBook has been left orphaned. The recent update IMO didn?t really make up for it. Why? Weak battery life, compensating between cache levels, slow HD, dull CPU speed and ridiculously expensive BTO options (pic 2).
The soon to follow iMac upgrade seemed to make things even worse. The current iMac is all too eager to jump over the PowerBook?s horsepower: 1,25Ghz banging on the 1,33Ghz door (pic 3). Perhaps I should consider an iMac?
And for those who can?t because they MUST have portability, we now even have the new iBook as a respectable alternative (pic 4). Seems that Apple decided that closing the iBook gap with the PC market (and iMac) was more important than maintaining iBook and PowerBook at a distance. Well, that?s settled then, I am definitely buying the iBook!
There?s no denying; the PowerBook is in a tight spot. And if Apple introduces a revB PM in February, the gap with the PB will only become bigger. But Apple seems to have caught on to the fact that they should upgrade all products in the same class (quasi) simultaneously. Just now: iMac, eMac and iBook. For January / February: the PowerBook and PowerMac.
Thus, if the Powerbook G5 is expected but by the end of next year, I would expect a very serious PB update in Jan/Feb! Can it be anything else than a dual G4?
Thus, if the Powerbook G5 is expected but by the end of next year, I would expect a very serious PB update in Jan/Feb! Can it be anything else than a dual G4?
It's easy to see what you are saying, but you are only comparing horsepower, not what else is under the hood.
First of all, if Apple was to somehow go the route of a dual processor laptop, then *all* future laptops would be expected to have a dual processor option. That's not something they will do, even if they could engineer it.
Think of it this way: Let's say Apple managed to get 2 1.25 GHz G4s into the current 17" PowerBook. Then next year, Apple releases a 1.6 GHz PowerBook G5. We already know that people are saying the dual 1.25 GHz and dual 1.42 GHz G4 towers are 'faster' than the 1.6 GHz G5, so this would merely be an extension of that. Even if Apple could get a G5 into a laptop (which will be an engineering feat by itself), there's no way they are getting 2 into one.
The way I see it, Apple is going to have a period of time from now until late next year where the laptop lines are 'close' in terms of speed. But remember, if you want anything larger than a 14.1 screen, higher resolutions than 1024x768, a better graphics card then a Radeon 9000 w/32 MB VRAM, more than 640 MB RAM, a PC card slot, etc., you need to buy a PowerBook. I think the lines are different enough as it is to not present a problem.