The 17" G4 iMac is going to kill the 15" superdrive model. Who is going to buy that when you het SO much more for $200?
Speed bumps will come as soon as the Powermacs have been upgraded.
I expect the 15" to be Combo only soon. The price differential between CDRW and combo continues to narrow and the eMac now fills the very bottom end. Apple has to much stock in the channel and this is a consequence of offering to many variants.
<strong>It's that the iMac has no headroom because of the Powermacs. If Apple bumped the iMac's MHz any more, then they could kiss their low end tower sales goodbye.</strong><hr></blockquote>
They kissed their low end tower sales goodbye at MWSF.
<strong>As far as updates go, I don't see any for the remainder of the year. The big question is the motherboard of the new Power Macs. If they are nForce2 based with a real memory bandwidth fix, then the iMacs will inherit a similar board at MWSF. No sense in an interim Fall update in that case.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I believe you'd find they are just clearing old stock and will update the iMacs in around 2 - 3 months.
As for the powermac motherboards everything I have heard has suggested they were done by Apple. I suppose it is possible nVidia contributed and somehow just constantly escaped mention but I find that unlikely. I really wouldn't be expecting an nForce 2 in there and personally I'd rather see Serial ATA. Drives are expected to appear very soon so there is little reason not to support the future now.
The power consumption of a 1 GHz 7455 w/ 133 MHz bus & L3 cache ......</strong><hr></blockquote>
I recall being told by a dealer (when I was adding ram to the first slot when ordering the machine) that the specs for the fp imac required PC133 memory.
I would guess iMac speed will get boosted in october in time for the Xmas buying season. Powermacs (hopefully anyways) we'll be a fair bit faster by then. They certainly couldn't upgrade iMac since they seem to be waiting until August for PowerMacs. The real question is, are they waiting until August just so they can clear old inventory, or are they waiting until August because they need the time so they can have super cool shit ready?
I recall being told by a dealer (when I was adding ram to the first slot when ordering the machine) that the specs for the fp imac required PC133 memory.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'll add another vote for an iMac speed bump before winter. MWSF is too long; that would mean the iMac will have spent the entire year topped out at 800 MHz (well, if you count from the announcement date rather than ship date). Faster chips seem to be in plentiful supply. We're just waiting on the Power Macs, and reduced iMac inventory.
A speed-bumped 17" iMac is going to be a very nice machine...
<strong>I agree with Matsu. It's well engineered and even has a cooling fan. And does a 1 GHz G4 produce much more heat than an 800 MHz G4? If so, and if Ive's and crew didn't account for this, then this would be a MAJOR design oversight and as soon as Jobs heard about it, heads would roll.
It's that the iMac has no headroom because of the Powermacs. If Apple bumped the iMac's MHz any more, then they could kiss their low end tower sales goodbye.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I believe the extra 200 MHz does produce a fair bit of extra heat. You'll notice that there is no 1 GHz PBTi, either. The current 7455 is still on a 0.18 micron process, but we're pretty sure they are moving it to a 0.13 micron process. This will produce considerably less heat and may be required to move both the PBTi and the iMac2 beyond the 800 MHz mark. The iMac2 is probably designed with a considerable "safety margin" in terms of cooling capacity to guard against its use in unfriendly environments (like being buried under a stack of papers in a stuffy overheated office).
Matsu's probably right though -- the iMac2 is pinned under the PowerMac, and until the PowerMac's minimum is raised they don't want to damage sales even further. I doubt they have been selling many low-end PowerMacs since January (but hopefully they haven't been building many, either).
Once I saw it was a widescreen, there was no holding back. Really like my wife's (800 15'), but the resolution was a bit small for my taste, and the wide-aspect on my tiBook is missed on a 4:3 screen.
This will fit the bill perfectly for an upgraded desktop to use until the next gen chips/architecture are FULLY here... jump from a rev B iMac (already better than my aging desktop) to a revB G5 (or whatever) a year or so down the road.
I think this machine, at its price point, speaks very well for the future of both lines... but this is where I'll stick while teh next gen pMac drama plays out.
On solution to the potential loss of PM sales to pro-sumer iMacs is to go ALL DUAL on the PM's. That's what they should have done. The margins on PM's are insane (even the 800), much higher than an iMac, and the SOI PPC's were never that expensive. The 800 started at 125USD and the 1Ghz started at 300. I'd be very surprised if they're not a bit cheaper now (especially since upgraders have started buying them). They could have chopped the L3 down to 1MB apiece on the hypothetical DP800, had a DP 933 2MB L3 superdrive, and a DP1GHz Superdrive plus Ti. Same price points, lose the ultimate config. Still plenty of margin, and you automatically turn the 'fast' and 'faster' configs into something saleable. Too Bad. That was the way to go.
Consumer desktop = SP
Pro Desktop = DP
They could have avoided this sales slump and still made a nice profit. Too Bad. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
<strong>I would guess iMac speed will get boosted in october in time for the Xmas buying season. Powermacs (hopefully anyways) we'll be a fair bit faster by then. They certainly couldn't upgrade iMac since they seem to be waiting until August for PowerMacs. The real question is, are they waiting until August just so they can clear old inventory, or are they waiting until August because they need the time so they can have super cool shit ready?</strong><hr></blockquote>
If Apples marketing people are smart September or October is when they will udate the iMacs. They have always been too early to the X-mass buying season, and too close on the other side. Apple needs to make waves with the PM at the New York and San Fran shows. The X-Serve at Seybold or one of the Video conferences,. And Finally the iMacs Paris (In time for X-mass), e-Mac at Tokeyo (in time for institutional education sales). Keep the PowerBook and i Book scattered throughout the yeat, and add a second update to the iMac/eMac aproximatly 6 months from the trade shows, or better yet go to Comdex with them and really market a Switch campaign to the PC crowd instead of us Mac Heads.
Keep in mind that regardless of the opinion of most of the AI crowd, a very large portion of the potential iMac buyers don't give one whit about the clock rate of the machine... adding a few MHz is not going to significantly impact iMac sales, especially in the current economic climate. People aren't buying and its not because its only 800 MHz.
.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Quite correct. People buy an iMac because it is the best integrated solution for their needs. Brute megahertz is not as much a motivation for consumer buyers. Better motivations are "is it usable?", "can I do what I want to do with it?", "is it reliable?", etc.
I think that the iMac will be updated before MWSF, and that the speed of its update will depend on how high Apple can get the towers. Of course, even if the towers had the same speed as speed bumped iMac's, there are still adequate ways to differentiate the iMac from a desktop (bus type, bus speed, expandability, monitor options, memory expandability, etc). There is no real reason why you can't speed bump both the iMac and a tower at roughly the same time because there are more differences between the Pro and consumer market than the MHz of the chip.
<strong>On solution to the potential loss of PM sales to pro-sumer iMacs is to go ALL DUAL on the PM's. That's what they should have done. The margins on PM's are insane (even the 800), much higher than an iMac, and the SOI PPC's were never that expensive. The 800 started at 125USD and the 1Ghz started at 300. I'd be very surprised if they're not a bit cheaper now (especially since upgraders have started buying them). They could have chopped the L3 down to 1MB apiece on the hypothetical DP800, had a DP 933 2MB L3 superdrive, and a DP1GHz Superdrive plus Ti. Same price points, lose the ultimate config. Still plenty of margin, and you automatically turn the 'fast' and 'faster' configs into something saleable. Too Bad. That was the way to go.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Good idea, but it requires a new bus for the pro lineup. A different bus and dual CPU's would be a good way to differentiate the pro and consumer lineups. Pro's would know that they are getting a good deal, and consumers would think that the Pro machines are roughly twice as fast (and hence that they justify the higher prices).
Once the PM moves up the current rig would make a great middle of the line machine.
$1499 15" SuperDrive 700
$1749 17" widescreen Superdrive 800 G4MX
$1999 19" widescreen Superdrive 933 G4MX
With the eMac Apple doesn't need to cover the low end of the line so well and the iMac can sit in a more comfortable (for Apple) price/margin area. Every iMac is a full fledged DVD burning digital hub.
They have to do something about the iMacs at least fairly soon (before MWSF!). Look at the price differences between the eMac and iMac. Now that the Combo drive is available on the eMac, I think a lot more people are going to get eMacs over the lower end iMacs. Say you want a basic, bargain system. You either get a CRT iMac or a low end eMac. The eMac is $1100. An iMac with similar but slightly less desirable specs (smaller screen albeit an LCD, one bad speaker instead of two good ones) is $300 more. If you want to play DVDs, then the price difference jumps to $400. And who's going to buy a 15" super drive version when you can get a much better one for just a little more? I see the iMac filling the niche the Cube tried to fill, but succeeding at it. First time Mac users and those on a tight budget get an eMac. Pros who need as much power as possible get a PowerMac (hopefully the low end ones will be more powerful). Gamers, prosumers and small business owners who can't afford a PowerMac but want something more powerful than an eMac go for the top of the line iMac.
I used an eMac yesterday and it was nice. Not the prettiest thing, but the screen is great even at max resolution, the speakers are good, and the tilt and swivel stand is the best thing like that I've ever seen. It's not effortless like on the iMac, but it's a lot smoother and easier than the ones on most 17" or even 15" CRTs. If I was in the market for a desktop, I'd definitely get the Combo eMac, and I think a lot of others would too.
Comments
Speed bumps will come as soon as the Powermacs have been upgraded.
I expect the 15" to be Combo only soon. The price differential between CDRW and combo continues to narrow and the eMac now fills the very bottom end. Apple has to much stock in the channel and this is a consequence of offering to many variants.
The iFuture hardware of iSony (formely Apple):
iSpoon : take your temperature while you're eating and iSync it to you medical center
iFridge : iChat with you and tell what receipe to cook using what you have in it. (Model with the 17/22/23' screen on the door)
iBike, iCar, iPlane, who knows ?
iBye
<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
[ 07-18-2002: Message edited by: Appleworm ]
[ 07-18-2002: Message edited by: Appleworm ]</p>
<strong>It's that the iMac has no headroom because of the Powermacs. If Apple bumped the iMac's MHz any more, then they could kiss their low end tower sales goodbye.</strong><hr></blockquote>
They kissed their low end tower sales goodbye at MWSF.
Barto
<strong>
Now for 400 more I get twice the hard disk, a 17" TFT screen, a GeForce4mx (which is faster than Radeon 7500)
</strong><hr></blockquote>
However, the 4mx of the new iMac has only 32MB of video memory...and it seems from nvidia's site that it corresponds to GeForce4 MX 420.
<strong>As far as updates go, I don't see any for the remainder of the year. The big question is the motherboard of the new Power Macs. If they are nForce2 based with a real memory bandwidth fix, then the iMacs will inherit a similar board at MWSF. No sense in an interim Fall update in that case.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I believe you'd find they are just clearing old stock and will update the iMacs in around 2 - 3 months.
As for the powermac motherboards everything I have heard has suggested they were done by Apple. I suppose it is possible nVidia contributed and somehow just constantly escaped mention but I find that unlikely. I really wouldn't be expecting an nForce 2 in there and personally I'd rather see Serial ATA. Drives are expected to appear very soon so there is little reason not to support the future now.
<strong>
The power consumption of a 1 GHz 7455 w/ 133 MHz bus & L3 cache ......</strong><hr></blockquote>
I recall being told by a dealer (when I was adding ram to the first slot when ordering the machine) that the specs for the fp imac required PC133 memory.
Who in the hell has actually bought a PM lately?
I just want to laugh at them.
<strong>
I recall being told by a dealer (when I was adding ram to the first slot when ordering the machine) that the specs for the fp imac required PC133 memory.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's more like "<a href="http://developer.apple.com/qa/qa2001/qa1130.html"; target="_blank">strongly recommended</a>."
I'll add another vote for an iMac speed bump before winter. MWSF is too long; that would mean the iMac will have spent the entire year topped out at 800 MHz (well, if you count from the announcement date rather than ship date). Faster chips seem to be in plentiful supply. We're just waiting on the Power Macs, and reduced iMac inventory.
A speed-bumped 17" iMac is going to be a very nice machine...
[ 07-18-2002: Message edited by: iconmaster ]</p>
<strong>I agree with Matsu. It's well engineered and even has a cooling fan. And does a 1 GHz G4 produce much more heat than an 800 MHz G4? If so, and if Ive's and crew didn't account for this, then this would be a MAJOR design oversight and as soon as Jobs heard about it, heads would roll.
It's that the iMac has no headroom because of the Powermacs. If Apple bumped the iMac's MHz any more, then they could kiss their low end tower sales goodbye.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I believe the extra 200 MHz does produce a fair bit of extra heat. You'll notice that there is no 1 GHz PBTi, either. The current 7455 is still on a 0.18 micron process, but we're pretty sure they are moving it to a 0.13 micron process. This will produce considerably less heat and may be required to move both the PBTi and the iMac2 beyond the 800 MHz mark. The iMac2 is probably designed with a considerable "safety margin" in terms of cooling capacity to guard against its use in unfriendly environments (like being buried under a stack of papers in a stuffy overheated office).
Matsu's probably right though -- the iMac2 is pinned under the PowerMac, and until the PowerMac's minimum is raised they don't want to damage sales even further. I doubt they have been selling many low-end PowerMacs since January (but hopefully they haven't been building many, either).
This will fit the bill perfectly for an upgraded desktop to use until the next gen chips/architecture are FULLY here... jump from a rev B iMac (already better than my aging desktop) to a revB G5 (or whatever) a year or so down the road.
I think this machine, at its price point, speaks very well for the future of both lines... but this is where I'll stick while teh next gen pMac drama plays out.
Consumer desktop = SP
Pro Desktop = DP
They could have avoided this sales slump and still made a nice profit. Too Bad. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
<strong>I would guess iMac speed will get boosted in october in time for the Xmas buying season. Powermacs (hopefully anyways) we'll be a fair bit faster by then. They certainly couldn't upgrade iMac since they seem to be waiting until August for PowerMacs. The real question is, are they waiting until August just so they can clear old inventory, or are they waiting until August because they need the time so they can have super cool shit ready?</strong><hr></blockquote>
If Apples marketing people are smart September or October is when they will udate the iMacs. They have always been too early to the X-mass buying season, and too close on the other side. Apple needs to make waves with the PM at the New York and San Fran shows. The X-Serve at Seybold or one of the Video conferences,. And Finally the iMacs Paris (In time for X-mass), e-Mac at Tokeyo (in time for institutional education sales). Keep the PowerBook and i Book scattered throughout the yeat, and add a second update to the iMac/eMac aproximatly 6 months from the trade shows, or better yet go to Comdex with them and really market a Switch campaign to the PC crowd instead of us Mac Heads.
<strong>
Keep in mind that regardless of the opinion of most of the AI crowd, a very large portion of the potential iMac buyers don't give one whit about the clock rate of the machine... adding a few MHz is not going to significantly impact iMac sales, especially in the current economic climate. People aren't buying and its not because its only 800 MHz.
.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Quite correct. People buy an iMac because it is the best integrated solution for their needs. Brute megahertz is not as much a motivation for consumer buyers. Better motivations are "is it usable?", "can I do what I want to do with it?", "is it reliable?", etc.
I think that the iMac will be updated before MWSF, and that the speed of its update will depend on how high Apple can get the towers. Of course, even if the towers had the same speed as speed bumped iMac's, there are still adequate ways to differentiate the iMac from a desktop (bus type, bus speed, expandability, monitor options, memory expandability, etc). There is no real reason why you can't speed bump both the iMac and a tower at roughly the same time because there are more differences between the Pro and consumer market than the MHz of the chip.
<strong>On solution to the potential loss of PM sales to pro-sumer iMacs is to go ALL DUAL on the PM's. That's what they should have done. The margins on PM's are insane (even the 800), much higher than an iMac, and the SOI PPC's were never that expensive. The 800 started at 125USD and the 1Ghz started at 300. I'd be very surprised if they're not a bit cheaper now (especially since upgraders have started buying them). They could have chopped the L3 down to 1MB apiece on the hypothetical DP800, had a DP 933 2MB L3 superdrive, and a DP1GHz Superdrive plus Ti. Same price points, lose the ultimate config. Still plenty of margin, and you automatically turn the 'fast' and 'faster' configs into something saleable. Too Bad. That was the way to go.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Good idea, but it requires a new bus for the pro lineup. A different bus and dual CPU's would be a good way to differentiate the pro and consumer lineups. Pro's would know that they are getting a good deal, and consumers would think that the Pro machines are roughly twice as fast (and hence that they justify the higher prices).
[ 07-18-2002: Message edited by: Yevgeny ]</p>
$1499 15" SuperDrive 700
$1749 17" widescreen Superdrive 800 G4MX
$1999 19" widescreen Superdrive 933 G4MX
With the eMac Apple doesn't need to cover the low end of the line so well and the iMac can sit in a more comfortable (for Apple) price/margin area. Every iMac is a full fledged DVD burning digital hub.
I used an eMac yesterday and it was nice. Not the prettiest thing, but the screen is great even at max resolution, the speakers are good, and the tilt and swivel stand is the best thing like that I've ever seen. It's not effortless like on the iMac, but it's a lot smoother and easier than the ones on most 17" or even 15" CRTs. If I was in the market for a desktop, I'd definitely get the Combo eMac, and I think a lot of others would too.
eMac - the new iMac
iMac - the new Cube
PowerMac - the new IIvx