The often cited 76% statistic refers to the average disparity between women's and men's earnings when they are doing the same jobs. This disparity actually moves closer to 60% at the higher end of the pay scale. In 1998, the median earnings of women with a professional degree were $55,460, compared with $90,653 for men.
Going back to the kind of jobs that poor, unskilled workers end up doing: You seem to feel that women are benefiting by showing a preference for not working in more dangerous environments, therefore they should be paid less. Of course, this is a comparison that we can only make in a hypothetical world where a woman with few skills and little education has the same (legal) opportunities for making money at the same rate as a similarly unskilled man. If a 5'5" 140lb woman and a 5'10" 180lb man apply for a construction job, who do you really think is going to get it?
The simple fact is that poor women get paid less for their hours spent doing undesirable, low status, menial, yet still physically demanding, jobs. Poor men don't get paid particularly well for doing dangerous and physically demanding jobs, so there is no real 'winner'.
Edit: 1998, not 2000.
First you get a two for one since I will mention your link in here as well.
Your link makes the same mistakes almost all wage comparisons when comparing men and women. That is that they really don?t make true comparisons. Your link for example doesn?t appear to compare true job for job comparisons. Rather it makes misleading comparisons about educational level, full time, etc.
For example according to that report a....
Woman with a B.A. in English, who has three years of job experience and has been outside the work force for five years while raising a child, while working 32 hours a week..
and...a....
Man with a B.S. in Chemical Engineering with 8 years of job experience working 51 hours a week....
are the exact same person.
When these two people do not make the same amount of money does anyone really think the reason is sexism?
Find for me a study where the work experience, job, educational level and number of hours work is the same (not just full time which is 32 hours+) and I assure you there will be little difference.
Your link makes the same mistakes almost all wage comparisons when comparing men and women. That is that they really don?t make true comparisons. Your link for example doesn?t appear to compare true job for job comparisons. Rather it makes misleading comparisons about educational level, full time, etc.
The point being that the same earning opportunities should be open to everyone with the requisite qualifications irrespective of gender (or race or religion). If women with professional degrees (you know...JD, MD, PhD, MBA, MSF...all those really expensive ones) earn 61% of the salary of men with professional degrees it is because they are not being offered the same jobs...or rather, because they are not being offered the same promotions. There are still corporations operating today where the culture is such that when a male employee gets married or has a child he almost always receives a promotion, but when a female employee gets married or has a child she is expected to cut back on her hours.
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
For example according to that report a....
Woman with a B.A. in English, who has three years of job experience and has been outside the work force for five years while raising a child, while working 32 hours a week..
and...a....
Man with a B.S. in Chemical Engineering with 8 years of job experience working 51 hours a week....
are the exact same person.
I don't know which report you are referring to here, but it is certainly not the one to which I provided a link. In fact, I can't find the comparison you mention above being made anywhere else.
I did find this comparison in the report I linked to though...
Quote:
In 1998, the median income for families maintained by a woman with no husband present ($22,163) was lower than for families maintained by a man with no wife present ($35,681)
Now that hardly seems fair. Seeing as women and men have reached (close to) parity in education, there should be no significant difference between the abilities of single moms and single dads. Why do the single moms make so much less money? Being the sole breadwinner, I'm pretty sure they don't work 38% less hard than single dads.
Now that hardly seems fair. Seeing as women and men have reached (close to) parity in education, there should be no significant difference between the abilities of single moms and single dads. Why do the single moms make so much less money?
perhaps single women also tend to be less educated women?
top that off with the fact that women have a distinct advantage in custody issues and you find your diparity.
men don't get the kids from mom unless they have a significant advantage over her situation.
Trumptman, I'd like to sit in on a discussion between you and your wife about any number of the ideas you post about the relationship between the sexes. I'd also like to sit in on a discussion between you and my wife about these same ideas. Man, you wouldn't know what had hit you.
The point being that the same earning opportunities should be open to everyone with the requisite qualifications irrespective of gender (or race or religion). If women with professional degrees (you know...JD, MD, PhD, MBA, MSF...all those really expensive ones) earn 61% of the salary of men with professional degrees it is because they are not being offered the same jobs...or rather, because they are not being offered the same promotions. There are still corporations operating today where the culture is such that when a male employee gets married or has a child he almost always receives a promotion, but when a female employee gets married or has a child she is expected to cut back on her hours.
I don't know which report you are referring to here, but it is certainly not the one to which I provided a link. In fact, I can't find the comparison you mention above being made anywhere else.
I did find this comparison in the report I linked to though...
Now that hardly seems fair. Seeing as women and men have reached (close to) parity in education, there should be no significant difference between the abilities of single moms and single dads. Why do the single moms make so much less money? Being the sole breadwinner, I'm pretty sure they don't work 38% less hard than single dads.
Education is not the only factor when it comes to pay. Experience, time spent in the office, and dedication to the job also are factored in.
Education is not the only factor when it comes to pay. Experience, time spent in the office, and dedication to the job also are factored in.
Absolutely. But these factors don't fully account for the discrepancies either. They might bring the difference up from 73-76% to 80-81%...but why should there be any difference at all? Why do women with the qualifications, experience, and dedication still get passed over for senior positions more often than not? Anyone who has ever worked in corporate America knows that there are plenty of eminently qualified, experienced, and dedicated women working there...but how many Fortune 1000 CEOs are women?
The point being that the same earning opportunities should be open to everyone with the requisite qualifications irrespective of gender (or race or religion).
Agreed
Quote:
If women with professional degrees (you know...JD, MD, PhD, MBA, MSF...all those really expensive ones) earn 61% of the salary of men with professional degrees it is because they are not being offered the same jobs...or rather, because they are not being offered the same promotions. [/B]
A degree is not just any degree. Some degrees earn significantly more than others. They were comparing the same level of degree but not the same degree. This is an intentional and common mistake since women overwhelmingly prefer to get degrees in liberal studies, humanities, etc. They tend to avoid the hard sciences, engineering, computer sciences, etc like the plague. I'm not stereotyping. The degree types have been tracked and those are the trends.
I'm not saying sexism isn't possible. I'm saying comparisons that call English and Engineering the same degree and consider it sexism that they don't pay the same are not valid.
I have seen studies that do true direct comparisons. There are still pay differences. They range between 3-8% depending upon the field, etc. Even then I don't know if that would be 100% sexism since studies have also shown women less likely to demand a raise. I would say the pay difference purely assigned to sexism is 2% or less. The rest is differences in full time (32 hours vs.40-50+), educational degree differences, time on job and job flexibility, etc.
Quote:
There are still corporations operating today where the culture is such that when a male employee gets married or has a child he almost always receives a promotion, but when a female employee gets married or has a child she is expected to cut back on her hours.
I think your assumptions are showing. I have never heard of someone getting a promotion for having a child. Likewise the process for children and work usually follows a pattern of both knowing that the child demands time and someone choosing to devote more time to the child/family and someone else devoting even more time to the job.
The reason it overwhelmingly is women is not a preference of just men, but women also. I'm sure many more men would love to have the option of staying home or working part time. However society and specifically women do not allow this choice. When a woman has a child it is not a company that expects her to work less. Society gives women choices. They can work full time, part time, or not at all. What are a man's choices regarding work when a child is born?
Trumptman, I'd like to sit in on a discussion between you and your wife about any number of the ideas you post about the relationship between the sexes. I'd also like to sit in on a discussion between you and my wife about these same ideas. Man, you wouldn't know what had hit you.
Well you are certainly welcome to drive on down to So Cal for a visit. I assure you my wife is very aware of my views. She even shares many of them. My wife has a B.A. in English and worked as a teacher for a number of years. The reason she sees favor with my ideas is because we have two sons who are respectively four and two.
As for a discussion between you and your wife, if it were a discussion of ideas, I'm sure I would enjoy it. If it would consist of an angry finger pointing rant/yell-fest, you can keep it. I don't consider it a form of communication worth pursuing, nor do I consider it persuasive which is what I am sure she would strive to be.
Likewise you could have your wife register on Appleinsider as well. Maybe she likes Mac's as much as mine does.
Absolutely. But these factors don't fully account for the discrepancies either. They might bring the difference up from 73-76% to 80-81%...but why should there be any difference at all? Why do women with the qualifications, experience, and dedication still get passed over for senior positions more often than not? Anyone who has ever worked in corporate America knows that there are plenty of eminently qualified, experienced, and dedicated women working there...but how many Fortune 1000 CEOs are women?
I'll tell you what, why don't you look up a study on uppermobility and salary for men and women who have pursued only their career while having no children. I think you will see them as surprisingly close.
Likewise I would have to say that pursuing a career to the detriment of children, be you a man or woman is not something I consider enlightened.
How much would your views differ if you had two young girls?
Just curious.
I try to be fair. I claim to be impartial as I'm sure all people do.
I did have a "daughter" for a year when we hosted a Japanese exchange student in our home. The district tried to place her in a lower math class because they were concerned about language issues. I insisted she take the class she should and she passed it with a "B." Not only that but she made the honor roll and was a junion honor escort.
In my own class the only students to earn all "A's" from me have with about one exception been girls and a clear majority of my honor students are female.
I wish to empower my sons and not to the detriment of someone elses' daughter. Likewise if I had a daughter the reverse would be true.
A degree is not just any degree. Some degrees earn significantly more than others. They were comparing the same level of degree but not the same degree. This is an intentional and common mistake since women overwhelmingly prefer to get degrees in liberal studies, humanities, etc. They tend to avoid the hard sciences, engineering, computer sciences, etc like the plague. I'm not stereotyping.
I'm sure you don't mean to stereotype, but you are. And it is a baseless stereotype. The highest earning professional graduate degrees are Business, Law, Medicine and Veterinary Medicine. About 50% of Law and Med school graduates are women. More than 60% of Vet school graduates are women. About 35% of Business school graduates are women. Between 40% and 50% of architecture graduates are women. Even engineering and computer science courses have 25% to 30% female graduates. I wouldn't call this an overwhelming preference for liberal studies by any stretch of the imagination.
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
I'm not saying sexism isn't possible. I'm saying comparisons that call English and Engineering the same degree and consider it sexism that they don't pay the same are not valid.
You are correct when you say that comparing the earning potential of English and Engineering graduates would skew the results...but that wasn't the comparison being made. The comparison was of professional degrees, which, by definition, limits the comparison to graduates of Medical schools, Business schools, Law schools etc.
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
I think your assumptions are showing. I have never heard of someone getting a promotion for having a child.
Not an assumption. A practice that was in place at a company I worked for for almost two years. It wasn't written down anywhere, but everyone knew that the best way to get a promotion was to become a father.
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
I wish to empower my sons and not to the detriment of someone elses' daughter. Likewise if I had a daughter the reverse would be true.
I'm glad to hear it...and if that were true of everyone then any disparities in men and women's lifetime earnings really could be attributed to different career and life goals. But just because you happen to be egalitarian does not preclude others from being dismissive of the abilities and competencies of women.
I'm calling bullshit on this. Please present facts that support this claim.
you bastard. beat me to it.
Quote:
About 50% of Law and Med school graduates are women. More than 60% of Vet school graduates are women. About 35% of Business school graduates are women. Between 40% and 50% of architecture graduates are women. Even engineering and computer science courses have 25% to 30% female graduates. I wouldn't call this an overwhelming preference for liberal studies by any stretch of the imagination.
that's fine for graduates. what about already established professionals? think there's a base of disparity between those majors? think that might skew the numbers a bit?
who cares what the graduation percentages are. what are the working professional percentages?
Comments
Originally posted by kneelbeforezod
The often cited 76% statistic refers to the average disparity between women's and men's earnings when they are doing the same jobs. This disparity actually moves closer to 60% at the higher end of the pay scale. In 1998, the median earnings of women with a professional degree were $55,460, compared with $90,653 for men.
Going back to the kind of jobs that poor, unskilled workers end up doing: You seem to feel that women are benefiting by showing a preference for not working in more dangerous environments, therefore they should be paid less. Of course, this is a comparison that we can only make in a hypothetical world where a woman with few skills and little education has the same (legal) opportunities for making money at the same rate as a similarly unskilled man. If a 5'5" 140lb woman and a 5'10" 180lb man apply for a construction job, who do you really think is going to get it?
The simple fact is that poor women get paid less for their hours spent doing undesirable, low status, menial, yet still physically demanding, jobs. Poor men don't get paid particularly well for doing dangerous and physically demanding jobs, so there is no real 'winner'.
Edit: 1998, not 2000.
First you get a two for one since I will mention your link in here as well.
Your link makes the same mistakes almost all wage comparisons when comparing men and women. That is that they really don?t make true comparisons. Your link for example doesn?t appear to compare true job for job comparisons. Rather it makes misleading comparisons about educational level, full time, etc.
For example according to that report a....
Woman with a B.A. in English, who has three years of job experience and has been outside the work force for five years while raising a child, while working 32 hours a week..
and...a....
Man with a B.S. in Chemical Engineering with 8 years of job experience working 51 hours a week....
are the exact same person.
When these two people do not make the same amount of money does anyone really think the reason is sexism?
Find for me a study where the work experience, job, educational level and number of hours work is the same (not just full time which is 32 hours+) and I assure you there will be little difference.
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
I think men having 97% of the jobs in those dangerous fields might have something to do with the 92% death rate don't you?
Which job has a 92 % death rate? I think there is probably something to improve in tohe work methods in that field.
Originally posted by trumptman
Your link makes the same mistakes almost all wage comparisons when comparing men and women. That is that they really don?t make true comparisons. Your link for example doesn?t appear to compare true job for job comparisons. Rather it makes misleading comparisons about educational level, full time, etc.
The point being that the same earning opportunities should be open to everyone with the requisite qualifications irrespective of gender (or race or religion). If women with professional degrees (you know...JD, MD, PhD, MBA, MSF...all those really expensive ones) earn 61% of the salary of men with professional degrees it is because they are not being offered the same jobs...or rather, because they are not being offered the same promotions. There are still corporations operating today where the culture is such that when a male employee gets married or has a child he almost always receives a promotion, but when a female employee gets married or has a child she is expected to cut back on her hours.
Originally posted by trumptman
For example according to that report a....
Woman with a B.A. in English, who has three years of job experience and has been outside the work force for five years while raising a child, while working 32 hours a week..
and...a....
Man with a B.S. in Chemical Engineering with 8 years of job experience working 51 hours a week....
are the exact same person.
I don't know which report you are referring to here, but it is certainly not the one to which I provided a link. In fact, I can't find the comparison you mention above being made anywhere else.
I did find this comparison in the report I linked to though...
In 1998, the median income for families maintained by a woman with no husband present ($22,163) was lower than for families maintained by a man with no wife present ($35,681)
Now that hardly seems fair. Seeing as women and men have reached (close to) parity in education, there should be no significant difference between the abilities of single moms and single dads. Why do the single moms make so much less money? Being the sole breadwinner, I'm pretty sure they don't work 38% less hard than single dads.
Now that hardly seems fair. Seeing as women and men have reached (close to) parity in education, there should be no significant difference between the abilities of single moms and single dads. Why do the single moms make so much less money?
perhaps single women also tend to be less educated women?
top that off with the fact that women have a distinct advantage in custody issues and you find your diparity.
men don't get the kids from mom unless they have a significant advantage over her situation.
Men with kids versus women with kids.
Just make an angry emotional statement and move on.
but then again apparently I'm a prick too.
Originally posted by kneelbeforezod
The point being that the same earning opportunities should be open to everyone with the requisite qualifications irrespective of gender (or race or religion). If women with professional degrees (you know...JD, MD, PhD, MBA, MSF...all those really expensive ones) earn 61% of the salary of men with professional degrees it is because they are not being offered the same jobs...or rather, because they are not being offered the same promotions. There are still corporations operating today where the culture is such that when a male employee gets married or has a child he almost always receives a promotion, but when a female employee gets married or has a child she is expected to cut back on her hours.
I don't know which report you are referring to here, but it is certainly not the one to which I provided a link. In fact, I can't find the comparison you mention above being made anywhere else.
I did find this comparison in the report I linked to though...
Now that hardly seems fair. Seeing as women and men have reached (close to) parity in education, there should be no significant difference between the abilities of single moms and single dads. Why do the single moms make so much less money? Being the sole breadwinner, I'm pretty sure they don't work 38% less hard than single dads.
Education is not the only factor when it comes to pay. Experience, time spent in the office, and dedication to the job also are factored in.
Originally posted by groverat
Logic has no place in threads that start like this.
Just make an angry emotional statement and move on.
You are right my friend.
Originally posted by BR
Education is not the only factor when it comes to pay. Experience, time spent in the office, and dedication to the job also are factored in.
Absolutely. But these factors don't fully account for the discrepancies either. They might bring the difference up from 73-76% to 80-81%...but why should there be any difference at all? Why do women with the qualifications, experience, and dedication still get passed over for senior positions more often than not? Anyone who has ever worked in corporate America knows that there are plenty of eminently qualified, experienced, and dedicated women working there...but how many Fortune 1000 CEOs are women?
Originally posted by kneelbeforezod
The point being that the same earning opportunities should be open to everyone with the requisite qualifications irrespective of gender (or race or religion).
Agreed
If women with professional degrees (you know...JD, MD, PhD, MBA, MSF...all those really expensive ones) earn 61% of the salary of men with professional degrees it is because they are not being offered the same jobs...or rather, because they are not being offered the same promotions. [/B]
A degree is not just any degree. Some degrees earn significantly more than others. They were comparing the same level of degree but not the same degree. This is an intentional and common mistake since women overwhelmingly prefer to get degrees in liberal studies, humanities, etc. They tend to avoid the hard sciences, engineering, computer sciences, etc like the plague. I'm not stereotyping. The degree types have been tracked and those are the trends.
I'm not saying sexism isn't possible. I'm saying comparisons that call English and Engineering the same degree and consider it sexism that they don't pay the same are not valid.
I have seen studies that do true direct comparisons. There are still pay differences. They range between 3-8% depending upon the field, etc. Even then I don't know if that would be 100% sexism since studies have also shown women less likely to demand a raise. I would say the pay difference purely assigned to sexism is 2% or less. The rest is differences in full time (32 hours vs.40-50+), educational degree differences, time on job and job flexibility, etc.
There are still corporations operating today where the culture is such that when a male employee gets married or has a child he almost always receives a promotion, but when a female employee gets married or has a child she is expected to cut back on her hours.
I think your assumptions are showing. I have never heard of someone getting a promotion for having a child. Likewise the process for children and work usually follows a pattern of both knowing that the child demands time and someone choosing to devote more time to the child/family and someone else devoting even more time to the job.
The reason it overwhelmingly is women is not a preference of just men, but women also. I'm sure many more men would love to have the option of staying home or working part time. However society and specifically women do not allow this choice. When a woman has a child it is not a company that expects her to work less. Society gives women choices. They can work full time, part time, or not at all. What are a man's choices regarding work when a child is born?
Nick
Originally posted by Chinney
Trumptman, I'd like to sit in on a discussion between you and your wife about any number of the ideas you post about the relationship between the sexes. I'd also like to sit in on a discussion between you and my wife about these same ideas. Man, you wouldn't know what had hit you.
Well you are certainly welcome to drive on down to So Cal for a visit. I assure you my wife is very aware of my views. She even shares many of them. My wife has a B.A. in English and worked as a teacher for a number of years. The reason she sees favor with my ideas is because we have two sons who are respectively four and two.
As for a discussion between you and your wife, if it were a discussion of ideas, I'm sure I would enjoy it. If it would consist of an angry finger pointing rant/yell-fest, you can keep it. I don't consider it a form of communication worth pursuing, nor do I consider it persuasive which is what I am sure she would strive to be.
Likewise you could have your wife register on Appleinsider as well. Maybe she likes Mac's as much as mine does.
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
The reason she sees favor with my ideas is because we have two sons who are respectively four and two.
How much would your views differ if you had two young girls?
Just curious.
Originally posted by kneelbeforezod
Absolutely. But these factors don't fully account for the discrepancies either. They might bring the difference up from 73-76% to 80-81%...but why should there be any difference at all? Why do women with the qualifications, experience, and dedication still get passed over for senior positions more often than not? Anyone who has ever worked in corporate America knows that there are plenty of eminently qualified, experienced, and dedicated women working there...but how many Fortune 1000 CEOs are women?
I'll tell you what, why don't you look up a study on uppermobility and salary for men and women who have pursued only their career while having no children. I think you will see them as surprisingly close.
Likewise I would have to say that pursuing a career to the detriment of children, be you a man or woman is not something I consider enlightened.
Nick
Originally posted by audiopollution
How much would your views differ if you had two young girls?
Just curious.
I try to be fair. I claim to be impartial as I'm sure all people do.
I did have a "daughter" for a year when we hosted a Japanese exchange student in our home. The district tried to place her in a lower math class because they were concerned about language issues. I insisted she take the class she should and she passed it with a "B." Not only that but she made the honor roll and was a junion honor escort.
In my own class the only students to earn all "A's" from me have with about one exception been girls and a clear majority of my honor students are female.
I wish to empower my sons and not to the detriment of someone elses' daughter. Likewise if I had a daughter the reverse would be true.
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
A degree is not just any degree. Some degrees earn significantly more than others. They were comparing the same level of degree but not the same degree. This is an intentional and common mistake since women overwhelmingly prefer to get degrees in liberal studies, humanities, etc. They tend to avoid the hard sciences, engineering, computer sciences, etc like the plague. I'm not stereotyping.
I'm sure you don't mean to stereotype, but you are. And it is a baseless stereotype. The highest earning professional graduate degrees are Business, Law, Medicine and Veterinary Medicine. About 50% of Law and Med school graduates are women. More than 60% of Vet school graduates are women. About 35% of Business school graduates are women. Between 40% and 50% of architecture graduates are women. Even engineering and computer science courses have 25% to 30% female graduates. I wouldn't call this an overwhelming preference for liberal studies by any stretch of the imagination.
Originally posted by trumptman
I'm not saying sexism isn't possible. I'm saying comparisons that call English and Engineering the same degree and consider it sexism that they don't pay the same are not valid.
You are correct when you say that comparing the earning potential of English and Engineering graduates would skew the results...but that wasn't the comparison being made. The comparison was of professional degrees, which, by definition, limits the comparison to graduates of Medical schools, Business schools, Law schools etc.
Originally posted by trumptman
I think your assumptions are showing. I have never heard of someone getting a promotion for having a child.
Not an assumption. A practice that was in place at a company I worked for for almost two years. It wasn't written down anywhere, but everyone knew that the best way to get a promotion was to become a father.
Originally posted by trumptman
I wish to empower my sons and not to the detriment of someone elses' daughter. Likewise if I had a daughter the reverse would be true.
I'm glad to hear it...and if that were true of everyone then any disparities in men and women's lifetime earnings really could be attributed to different career and life goals. But just because you happen to be egalitarian does not preclude others from being dismissive of the abilities and competencies of women.
Originally posted by kneelbeforezod
Absolutely. But these factors don't fully account for the discrepancies either. They might bring the difference up from 73-76% to 80-81%...
I'm calling bullshit on this. Please present facts that support this claim.
I'm calling bullshit on this. Please present facts that support this claim.
you bastard. beat me to it.
About 50% of Law and Med school graduates are women. More than 60% of Vet school graduates are women. About 35% of Business school graduates are women. Between 40% and 50% of architecture graduates are women. Even engineering and computer science courses have 25% to 30% female graduates. I wouldn't call this an overwhelming preference for liberal studies by any stretch of the imagination.
that's fine for graduates. what about already established professionals? think there's a base of disparity between those majors? think that might skew the numbers a bit?
who cares what the graduation percentages are. what are the working professional percentages?