Disk Image maaaaaaaadness!

Posted:
in macOS edited January 2014
Okay, this is an odd one.



I mounted a Disk Image (.dmg file), and it popped up in the sidebar just fine. Column view to the right, can see the contents.



In an ill-fated attempt to copy the entire contents of the image to a folder on my drive, I dragged the mount from the upper sidebar to a folder in another Finder window. (Can anyone tell me why it isn't reasonable to expect a folder of the same name of the mount to be created, and everything copied over? Sheesh.) *poof* It unmounts.



Okay, I sigh, realizing what I just did, find the .dmg file, and double-click. Nada. Try it again. Looks like it's opening, then nada. Try it with Cmd-O. Nope. Try from the command line. Nope. Nothing is showing up in the sidebar.



Then I realize that the first Finder window, where I was viewing the image contents, is still showing them. They never went away.



Apparently it was never actually unmounted, just visually removed from the sidebar, and attempts to remount it didn't show the icon because it was already mounted invisibly.



Which is confirmed when I Cmd-click on the proxy icon in the titlebar to access the path, and select the computer... the mounted image appears in the list.



Can anyone reproduce this?

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 18
    Yep. Happens here too. I'd say that's a bug.



    edit: it even happens with my partitions. How's that for a great feature? The worst thing about panther is the finder.
  • Reply 2 of 18
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Scary thing is, it's better than Jagwire's... :P
  • Reply 3 of 18
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kickaha

    Scary thing is, it's better than Jagwire's... :P



    I'm still waiting for a good finder in OS X. It's my only consistent gripe. I wish they'd work on that for a good long time before changing it as much as they have recently.
  • Reply 4 of 18
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Well, without derailing this into a Finder rant/rave thread, I do think that where they are now is a better base to build from than what they had, code-wise. Now we just need to get little things like consistently working ftp write, etc... (BTW, heard that the reason it usually doesn't work is because Apple actually wrote to the FTP spec, and most servers aren't compliant. True? FUD? Anyone know the skinny?)
  • Reply 5 of 18
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    To answer my own questions... as I was writing up a report to Apple, I realized the probable answer I'll get from them... it 'works as expected'.



    Why?



    The sidebar is not a representation of your mounted volumes state any more than it is a representation of your file space. It is your *Favorites*. Disks are placed there for easy access on mount sheerly for convenience. Dragging one out just removes it from the sidebar, just like dragging out a folder icon below only removes it from the sidebar, not deleting it.



    It's surprisingly consistent once you think about it.



    Hurm. I think I'll send in this report anyway, just to suggest they clarify it to the user somehow.
  • Reply 6 of 18
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kickaha

    To answer my own questions... as I was writing up a report to Apple, I realized the probable answer I'll get from them... it 'works as expected'.



    Why?



    The sidebar is not a representation of your mounted volumes state any more than it is a representation of your file space. It is your *Favorites*. Disks are placed there for easy access on mount sheerly for convenience. Dragging one out just removes it from the sidebar, just like dragging out a folder icon below only removes it from the sidebar, not deleting it.



    It's surprisingly consistent once you think about it.



    Hurm. I think I'll send in this report anyway, just to suggest they clarify it to the user somehow.




    I sorta agree and I wouldn't think that it was a problem except that it's not intuitive to get to the mounted disks if you've chosen to not show mounted disks on the desktop. Then, as far as the user is concerned, they are gone. As if disk images aren't hard enough to figure out for new users as it is...
  • Reply 7 of 18
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by pensieve

    I sorta agree and I wouldn't think that it was a problem except that it's not intuitive to get to the mounted disks if you've chosen to not show mounted disks on the desktop. Then, as far as the user is concerned, they are gone. As if disk images aren't hard enough to figure out for new users as it is...



    Indeed. What I sent in was that having the volumes automatically *appear* in the sidebar forms a link in the user's head between 'mounted' and 'in the sidebar'. Since having them visible in the sidebar is also on by default, this just reinforces it to the user.
  • Reply 8 of 18
    alcimedesalcimedes Posts: 5,486member
    except that most of the time when you mount an image, you want to work with the files within that image.



    it makes it very easy to do so this way.



    i like it the way it is.
  • Reply 9 of 18
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    I didn't say it was wrong, I was only pointing out that mounting -> shows up in sidebar sets up an erroneous assumption in the user of the reverse: remove from sidebar -> unmounts.



    Once I realized what was going on, it made sense, but the fact was that it wasn't what I expected given the observations I had at hand.



    A dialog popping up for the first such situation (mounted disks set to show up in sidebar, remove a mounted disk) would have clarified what was going on and made go "Oh, cool" instead of "WTF??" That's all.
  • Reply 10 of 18
    ok wait I'm not following you... do you mean in the disk utility app? Whats happening now in the left most pane of the finder is what you're saying?
  • Reply 11 of 18
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by kraig911

    ok wait I'm not following you... do you mean in the disk utility app? Whats happening now in the left most pane of the finder is what you're saying?



    In the sidebar of the Finder, yes.



    You mount a disk image (or any other volume), and by default it pops up in the sidebar. Cool beans. User associates 'mount disk' with 'appear in sidebar'. Which kind of sets up the expectation of the opposite... 'disappear from sidebar' == 'unmount disk'. Which is false. Drag a sidebar volume out, it goes poof, it disappears, but it *is still mounted*, and you can still get to it, it's just not obvious how. (Either use the proxy icon cmd-click path access, or enable 'Computer' to appear in the sidebar, and click that, and all your mounted volumes appear. Click it, Eject (for unmount).



    Yes, it can be turned off so that it doesn't appear in the sidebar on mount, yes, it is consistent with what the sidebar does, all that. It's just jarring the first time. And jarring without an explanation is... less than perfect.
  • Reply 12 of 18
    ipeonipeon Posts: 1,122member




    That's the problem with having ghosts in your finder. LMFAO. I remember a discussion we had about this very thing in a thread called "Anyone else glad there's a new Finder interface?" I believe.



    There you go. We now have ghosts, that is, not the "real" thing in the finder and you expect to have no confusion instilled onto the user. Mmmm, yea the spacial something or other "mon".



    At least back in OS 9 we could differentiate a real file from an Alias, the Alias had a symbol indicating it was an Alias. Now we have Aliases in the Dock the Finder the Toolbar with no distinction from the real one and you expect the user to keep it all straight.



    The problem with the Finder in OS X is that the user's files are nested deep within the HD. That's why it's a pain to navigate in the Finder. The solution is to clean up the HD directory so the user's folder are easily accessible, and most important, give the Aliases a symbol to differentiate them from the real file!
  • Reply 13 of 18
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by iPeon





    That's the problem with having ghosts in your finder. LMFAO. I remember a discussion we had about this very thing in a thread called "Anyone else glad there's a new Finder interface?" I believe.



    There you go. We now have ghosts, that is, not the "real" thing in the finder and you expect to have no confusion instilled onto the user. Mmmm, yea the spacial something or other "mon".



    At least back in OS 9 we could differentiate a real file from an Alias, the Alias had a symbol indicating it was an Alias. Now we have Aliases in the Dock the Finder the Toolbar with no distinction from the real one and you expect the user to keep it all straight.




    Wrong.



    Finder: alias badge.



    Dock, Toolbar: user *put* them there, they watched the aliasing take place as a result of their own action with the original.



    Quote:

    The problem with the Finder in OS X is that the user's files are nested deep within the HD. That's why it's a pain to navigate in the Finder. The solution is to clean up the HD directory so the user's folder are easily accessible, and most important, give the Aliases a symbol to differentiate them from the real file!



    Aliases do have a special badge, just like OS 9.



    The sidebar solves the 'deep nesting' 'problem' (sorry, I don't think it's a problem, but for those who want quick access, the new sidebar solves it).



    The 'ghost' problem you state isn't any different than when we used to put things in the Apple Menu Items folder.



    The problem here occurs because an action (mounting a volume) has an immediate visual result (sidebar icon of the volume), and it's reasonable to assume that the reverse is true, unless you realize that the sidebar is consistent: all items are just proxies.



    To repeat: an action (mounting) has a seemingly obvious result (sidebar icon), without the *direct* interaction of the user *with an obvious original item*. So it seems reasonable that the new item is the *direct* result of the mounting (the volume). It's not, it's a proxy, the second of a two-stage process.



    Furthermore, dragging it off has an apparent direct result (poof), but the first stage of the above process (the actual mounted volume) hasn't been affected at all. (It's what the Eject button is for next to the sidebar icon.) So the user doesn't realize that there's anything else to do, or how to obviously get back to the mounted volume icon.



    It's not a problem with 'ghosts'... that's too simplistic. It's a problem with cause, effect, and not showing the user that there was an intermediate step.



    Like I said, a simple dialog box the first time they *drag* a mounted volume off the sidebar would make it all clear.



    "You have removed the mounted volume "Insert Name Here" from the Sidebar. Note that this does not unmount the actual volume, only remove it from the Sidebar. To unmount a Sidebar volume, click on the Eject icon associated with that volume. Would you like me to unmount volume "Insert Name Here" now?"

    [ ] Do not show me this again <Unmount> <Leave Mounted>
  • Reply 14 of 18
    ipeonipeon Posts: 1,122member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kickaha

    Wrong.



    Finder: alias badge.




    Don't know what you mean.



    Quote:

    Dock, Toolbar: user *put* them there, they watched the aliasing take place as a result of their own action with the original.



    The user might have placed some there but there where some there placed by the system. At any rate, it's just bad communication to have a symbol of one type be the same as another. Bad UI. It's easier to operate via symbolism. An icon that is merely a link to the real file shouldn't look like the real file. Asking the user to remember is sloppy. The system should clearly distinguish between an icon that is a link to the real file vs. a real file.



    Quote:

    Aliases do have a special badge, just like OS 9.



    Right. What I was referring to was the "Aliases" in the sidebar, the Dock and Toolbar. I'm most likely using the wrong terminology here, but for all intent and purposes they act like an Alias in that the Icon is a symbolic link to the real file.



    Quote:

    The sidebar solves the 'deep nesting' 'problem' (sorry, I don't think it's a problem, but for those who want quick access, the new sidebar solves it).



    Exactly. The problem is the deep nesting. Hence the solution isn't adding a sidebar with fake items, the solution is to fix the problem, deep nesting.



    Quote:

    The 'ghost' problem you state isn't any different than when we used to put things in the Apple Menu Items folder.



    I don't know what you mean. The Apple Menu had a folder, you could place folders, files and Aliases in it. These items where accessed via the Apple menu. These weren't ghosts, they where the real item. I could tell the difference between an alias and a file.



    Quote:

    The problem here occurs because an action (mounting a volume) has an immediate visual result (sidebar icon of the volume), and it's reasonable to assume that the reverse is true, unless you realize that the sidebar is consistent: all items are just proxies.



    The problem is that the user doesn't recognize that the icons in the sidebar act much like the Dock. That the Icons in the sidebar aren't "real" items. You can drag something out it, but by doing so one isn't actually moving anything or changing anything, all it did was remove that "Alias" from the sidebar. The sidebar is just a another Dock.



    That's the problem with OS X, aliases all over the place with no distinguishable symbols.
  • Reply 15 of 18
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by iPeon

    Don't know what you mean.



    Simple. Look at an alias in the Finder, in any window displaying content (not the Sidebar or Toolbar)... the icon has a little curved arrow on it. That's called an icon badge, when you add a little something extra to an icon to give it some extra meaning. In this case, that the icon represents a file that's actually an alias to the original... just like the italicized text in OS 9.





    Quote:

    The user might have placed some there but there where some there placed by the system.



    The only ones that are placed there by the system automatically are Documents, Movies, Music, and Pictures. Look in your Finder Preferences under Sidebar - everything else is under the user's immediate control. (And even the others are simply a drag away from *poof*.)



    Quote:

    At any rate, it's just bad communication to have a symbol of one type be the same as another. Bad UI. It's easier to operate via symbolism. An icon that is merely a link to the real file shouldn't look like the real file. Asking the user to remember is sloppy. The system should clearly distinguish between an icon that is a link to the real file vs. a real file.



    I agree... to a point. Should the proxy icon in the title bar have a special badge? No, because you know that because it is *in the title bar* (context), it is not the same as the icon in a Finder window. Likewise, the Sidebar is *not a Finder window*. It is a different context. That alone should be sufficient... the problem is one of cause and secondary effect.



    Quote:

    Right. What I was referring to was the "Aliases" in the sidebar, the Dock and Toolbar. I'm most likely using the wrong terminology here, but for all intent and purposes they act like an Alias in that the Icon is a symbolic link to the real file.



    Well, then your assertion that the Finder (as defined as Finder window content) was included in that mix of things that the user needed to remember as different was incorrect, yes?



    Quote:

    Exactly. The problem is the deep nesting. Hence the solution isn't adding a sidebar with fake items, the solution is to fix the problem, deep nesting.



    So what's your solution? Keep in mind that you need to have a space for Apple installed items, computer-wide items, user-only items, user-only documents, shared documents, etc, etc, etc. Not something you care about? Tough. Those are things I care deeply about everyday. Without those, MacOS X becomes almost useless in my environment.



    Quote:

    I don't know what you mean. The Apple Menu had a folder, you could place folders, files and Aliases in it. These items where accessed via the Apple menu. These weren't ghosts, they where the real item. I could tell the difference between an alias and a file.



    Dear god, man... you placed the *actual* items in...



    I'm beginning to see our disconnect.



    Quote:

    The problem is that the user doesn't recognize that the icons in the sidebar act much like the Dock. That the Icons in the sidebar aren't "real" items. You can drag something out it, but by doing so one isn't actually moving anything or changing anything, all it did was remove that "Alias" from the sidebar. The sidebar is just a another Dock.



    That's the problem with OS X, aliases all over the place with no distinguishable symbols.




    Context is the distinguishing factor. It made perfect sense to me as soon as I realized what was going on... but a simple dialog to help the user understand that this is, indeed, a proxy area in the Sidebar, would go a long way.
  • Reply 16 of 18
    ipeonipeon Posts: 1,122member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kickaha

    Simple. Look at an alias in the Finder, in any window displaying content (not the Sidebar or Toolbar)... the icon has a little curved arrow on it. That's called an icon badge, when you add a little something extra to an icon to give it some extra meaning. In this case, that the icon represents a file that's actually an alias to the original... just like the italicized text in OS 9.



    Icon badge. Cool.



    Quote:

    The only ones that are placed there by the system automatically are Documents, Movies, Music, and Pictures. Look in your Finder Preferences under Sidebar - everything else is under the user's immediate control. (And even the others are simply a drag away from *poof*.)



    Yes I know that. But that's not my point. My point is that these icons do not have an icon badge indicating that they are an alias.



    Quote:

    I agree... to a point. Should the proxy icon in the title bar have a special badge? No, because you know that because it is *in the title bar* (context), it is not the same as the icon in a Finder window. Likewise, the Sidebar is *not a Finder window*. It is a different context. That alone should be sufficient... the problem is one of cause and secondary effect.



    Proxy icon in the title bar? The Sidebar is not a Finder window... To the programer it might be so, but to the user it sure does look like it's part of the finder. The background is white just as the finder. The Toolbar doesn't look like it's part of the finder, but the sidebar sure does. But all this is really not the issue. Again, the problem is that the icons in the sidebar have something missing. An icon badge indicating that the icons there are aliases.



    Quote:

    So what's your solution? Keep in mind that you need to have a space for Apple installed items, computer-wide items, user-only items, user-only documents, shared documents, etc, etc, etc. Not something you care about? Tough. Those are things I care deeply about everyday. Without those, MacOS X becomes almost useless in my environment.



    Sarcasm noted. Look, it's easy. Have a folder containing everything not user related. Instead of placing users inside a "users" folder just have a folder for each user right up top.



    Quote:

    Dear god, man... you placed the *actual* items in...



    I'm beginning to see our disconnect.




    Heh. Assumption can lead a friendly debate downhill. I said I could. I didn't say I did. The items I placed there where aliases thank you very much. I could get to any file very quickly. But never mind that. The Dock does the same thing now.



    Quote:

    Context is the distinguishing factor. It made perfect sense to me as soon as I realized what was going on... but a simple dialog to help the user understand that this is, indeed, a proxy area in the Sidebar, would go a long way.



    To hell with dialogs helping the users, this isn't Windows. All that needs to be done is symbolize it properly. An icon that links to something else needs to have an icon badge stating so.
  • Reply 17 of 18
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by iPeon

    Icon badge. Cool.

    Yes I know that. But that's not my point. My point is that these icons do not have an icon badge indicating that they are an alias.




    But they're not.



    An alias is a file on the hard drive that points to another file.



    The icons in the Dock and Sidebar do not have direct file analogues on the hard drive... to call them aliases would be... wrong.



    They are proxies. An alias is a type of file that is a proxy. The icon in the title bar is another kind of proxy. So is a Dock icon. So is a Sidebar icon. Only in the case of the Finder file aliases is a badge necessary since there's the necessity to distinguish between the 'actual' file and the 'pointer' file. (Which would be moot if we used hardlinks instead of symlinks under the hood... deleting *any* icon of the file would simply remove it from that view, and only when you deleted the last one would it actually go away...)



    Quote:

    Proxy icon in the title bar?



    Um, the little icon in the title bar of any Finder window or application that deals with documents. Click and hold on it for a second, then drag it somewhere. It will act *just like* you dragged the original file in the Finder. You can move it to another folder, drop it onto another app, even throw it in the Trash. Cmd-click on it to get the full path of where the file resides. (Even works in any application where the icon appears in the title bar, so you can quickly get to the parent folder of any document you're working with.)



    Been that way since OS9, at least.



    And notice, no badge.



    Quote:

    The Sidebar is not a Finder window... To the programer it might be so, but to the user it sure does look like it's part of the finder. The background is white just as the finder. The Toolbar doesn't look like it's part of the finder, but the sidebar sure does. But all this is really not the issue. Again, the problem is that the icons in the sidebar have something missing. An icon badge indicating that the icons there are aliases.



    They're not alias files.



    Quote:

    Sarcasm noted. Look, it's easy. Have a folder containing everything not user related. Instead of placing users inside a "users" folder just have a folder for each user right up top.



    So you've moved everyone up exactly *one* folder level. How does this help a 'deeply nested' problem? Now it's just 'deep - 1'. At what point does it become shallow? Or is it possible that if it's only one level down, it's not 'deep'? :/ Might be the user/machine/Apple trifurcation that's driving you mad... takes some getting used to.



    Quote:

    To hell with dialogs helping the users, this isn't Windows. All that needs to be done is symbolize it properly. An icon that links to something else needs to have an icon badge stating so.



    Suggest one distinct from the alias file badge for the proxies.



    Personally I think the context is more than sufficient, once it's realized what's going on. The context/icon isn't the problem, IMHO, it's the mount -> icon_appears not being the mirror image of icon_disappears -> unmount. That is sufficiently complex enough to warrant a dialog box, yet simply consistent enough that it does not warrant a UI change such as a badge. I never would have thought twice about the files and folders below acting that way, for instance. Those made sense immediately. The mount -> icon_appears causality not being reversible was the thing that threw me. *Very* specific case in an otherwise highly intuitive UI feature set. No sense changing everything with badges just to accommodate something this simple, and easily explained.
  • Reply 18 of 18
    ipeonipeon Posts: 1,122member
    I'm enjoying this discussion Kickaha. Just to let you know that while I may have a different perspective I nonetheless appreciate your viewpoint.



    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kickaha

    The icons in the Dock and Sidebar do not have direct file analogues on the hard drive... to call them aliases would be... wrong.



    Aliases, proxies, links, whatever proper terminology... I think you understand what I'm saying, no? The point is, these icons are NOT the file itself. The distinction between a real file and a proxie as you call it, is just not that clear in the sidebar. At the very least when you move something to the sidebar the pointer should turn into a curved arrow indicating to the user that he is not moving anything, he is just creating a link to that directory. This should be the same when you place something in the Dock, the pointer should turn into a curved arrow letting the user know that he isn't actually moving the file there.



    So you say the icon in the title bar is a proxie as well. But wait, lets review what you said...



    Quote:

    Um, the little icon in the title bar of any Finder window or application that deals with documents. Click and hold on it for a second, then drag it somewhere. It will act *just like* you dragged the original file in the Finder. You can move it to another folder, drop it onto another app, even throw it in the Trash. Cmd-click on it to get the full path of where the file resides. (Even works in any application where the icon appears in the title bar, so you can quickly get to the parent folder of any document you're working with.)



    Been that way since OS9, at least.



    And notice, no badge.




    Not applicable to what we are discussing. But my comments on that... First you say it acts like you dragged the original implying that you actually didn't move it then later you say "you can move it"? No badge? Oh yes there is a badge indeed. Matter of fact you can control what you want to do with it, you can make a duplicate of if by pressing the option key (the cursor will add a plus sign letting you know it's making a duplicate), you can create an alias of it by pressing command option (again the cursor lets you know you are making an alias.) You can also move it. It doesn't "act *just like* you dragged the original file", it DID move the file.



    At any rate, this is besides the point and not all that relevant to the discussion at hand.



    Quote:

    So you've moved everyone up exactly *one* folder level. How does this help a 'deeply nested' problem? Now it's just 'deep - 1'. At what point does it become shallow? Or is it possible that if it's only one level down, it's not 'deep'? :/ Might be the user/machine/Apple trifurcation that's driving you mad... takes some getting used to.



    True, you are only moving the user's directory up one. That in itself would be helpful, but that isn't that big an issue. You see, I have no problem getting files that are nested deep within. The Dock is the tool for that (It's the ultimate Apple Menu replacement). The problem of going to deep nested files isn't in the finder, the problem is when you are saving something and have to dig your way around the HD'd directory. But this problem has been fixed for the most part in Panther by having a side bar within the save dialog box. Here the sidebar is a superb UI. However, the sidebar in the Finder in it's current state is far from ideal.



    Quote:

    Personally I think the context is more than sufficient, once it's realized what's going on. The context/icon isn't the problem, IMHO, it's the mount -> icon_appears not being the mirror image of icon_disappears -> unmount. That is sufficiently complex enough to warrant a dialog box, yet simply consistent enough that it does not warrant a UI change such as a badge. I never would have thought twice about the files and folders below acting that way, for instance. Those made sense immediately. The mount -> icon_appears causality not being reversible was the thing that threw me. *Very* specific case in an otherwise highly intuitive UI feature set. No sense changing everything with badges just to accommodate something this simple, and easily explained.



    I agree with your frustration but disagree with the solution. For me the sidebar in the Finder window needs not be there. But if it's going to stay, we do need to have a distinction of those icons, even if by having the sidebar not look like it's part of the finder. It's a Dock. That's what it is. But there's other issues such as the one you stated above. What about removable media? Shouldn't it be ejected when you remove it's icon from the sidebar? I think it should... But then it's not behaving like a Dock. Is the sidebar a Dock or is a directory? There's the problem, trying to be both and adding confusion along the way.
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