I'll admit that my dislike of quicktime in general is trolling. However my point still stands that there are better codecs out there... Ogg Vorbis and XviD are things we really want to push for, so we can break down the proprietary formats. Apple could of easily added a security part on to Vorbis, and then sent it back to the community like they have done previously. Honestly I'd rather see a format that both PC and Mac's could adopt that way consumers wouldn't be afaird to purchese music. If both Mac and PC's used one codec, the whole media content in computers would be so much better... I don't ever think that WMV will be really used on the mac, nor do I think AAC will be really used on the PC... to me Vorbis and XviD are the file formats that will make everyone place nice atleast where it counts.
The fact that you keep saying Windows is less perfect then Mac is trolling to be honest with you. You have only provided the fact that windows crashes... I atleast can atleast say a few problems that surround macs. The major one is the lack of software.
Regardless of what you may think or say, Windows can be as perfectly stable as OSX if you get compentent people to run them. That is a fact.
Honestly I'd rather see a format that both PC and Mac's could adopt that way consumers wouldn't be afaird to purchese music. If both Mac and PC's used one codec, the whole media content in computers would be so much better... I don't ever think that WMV will be really used on the mac, nor do I think AAC will be really used on the PC... to me Vorbis and XviD are the file formats that will make everyone place nice atleast where it counts.
But that's not even realistic. No codec is going to be good for all uses. A user doesn't want to download a movie trailer using a codec like pixlet, and a production designer will never be satisfied with the low quality of XviD. Different codecs only matter to me when I can't play them. I can play wmv files on my mac. I can play vorbis with iTunes. I don't care what codec they use.
Quote:
The fact that you keep saying Windows is less perfect then Mac is trolling to be honest with you.
Only on a Windows forum would it be trolling.
Quote:
You have only provided the fact that windows crashes... I atleast can atleast say a few problems that surround macs. The major one is the lack of software.
Fine. Problems with windows: The entire registry model. MDI. Poor security. Virii. Poor system-wide scripting support. Very poor font handling and support. Poor color correction. Terrible application install/uninstall/movement. Poor dialog UI layouts (rows of re-ordering tabs, advanced tabs upon advanced buttons, etc.). Task based interface. Menu bar in each window. Spastic mouse tracking. Maximize vs. Zoom. Mediocre multitasking. File browsing and management. And of course it's ugly.
I'll admit that my dislike of quicktime in general is trolling. However my point still stands that there are better codecs out there... Ogg Vorbis and XviD are things we really want to push for, so we can break down the proprietary formats.
QuickTime.
Is.
Not.
A.
Codec.
QuickTime is an entire, extensible cross-platform architecture for creating and handling time-sensitive data.
You do realize, don't you, that you can get QuickTime to play Ogg Vorbis files via a plug-in? It's a plug-in architecture. That's how it works.
What your gripe probably boils down to is the lackluster QuickTime Player for Windows, not QuickTime itself. The .MOV file format (which, again, can contain MP3 or Ogg or whatever you please) is deprecated now in favor of MPEG-4, whose file format is based on ... *drumroll* .MOV.
Quote:
Apple could of easily added a security part on to Vorbis, and then sent it back to the community like they have done previously. Honestly I'd rather see a format that both PC and Mac's could adopt that way consumers wouldn't be afaird to purchese music. If both Mac and PC's used one codec, the whole media content in computers would be so much better... I don't ever think that WMV will be really used on the mac, nor do I think AAC will be really used on the PC... to me Vorbis and XviD are the file formats that will make everyone place nice atleast where it counts.
You think Ogg Vorbis and Xvid will go anywhere on the PC?! AAC's already on the PC, by the way, and at least there are fewer obstacles to adopting it than there are for a truly proprietary format like WMA.
Let me make one thing absolutely clear: AAC is to MPEG-4 as MP3 is to MPEG-2. AAC is the new MP3, literally. It's as open and as available as MP3 is, with the added benefit of copy protection. The #1 online music store and the #1 portable music player already use it, and other jukeboxes on Windows already support it.
Quote:
Regardless of what you may think or say, Windows can be as perfectly stable as OSX if you get compentent people to run them. That is a fact.
It can be, yes, although I've seen it fall down in all kinds of fascinating ways even at the hands of highly competent people. However, fair-weather stability is not interesting. I wouldn't even consider it stability: I could get months-long uptimes in Mac OS 9, too, but that doesn't make it rock solid, and it doesn't mean that the effort I went to to ensure those uptimes couldn't have been better spent doing work. A system which just runs with little to no knowledgeable intervention is a better system.
And, incidentally, I wouldn't call either Windows or Mac OS X stable relative to really solid operating systems like VMS. But you have to accept some corner-cutting to get a machine at personal computer prices.
I can work faster on a Mac because things are well-thought out and consistent
I don't care that my CPU speed is less than half of what I could get in a Dell or Gateway or Toshiba. I don't care that I can't play a gazillion games. Hell, I don't even care that I can't get a decent financial application on the Mac.
What matters to me, and what MOST Mac-bashers don't understand is the experience of using my computer.
I use my computer 85% of the time I'm awake. Programming, designing, reading, writing. It's MOST important to me that if I want to get the path for a file, I don't need to remember it, I just drag it to the terminal window I'm working in. It's MOST important to me that I can have 20 applications open at once and I can easily find what I'm looking for. It's MOST important to me to be able to open my email without fear of getting a virus in an attachment.
Did I mention that I sorta like having standard UNIX tools and paths at my disposal? It's nice that I can design a site on my computer, upload it to my server and not need to change a damn thing to get it working (because while the testing server - my computer - doesn't necessarily have to be non-IIS, you can be damn sure that my real server won't be anything but Apache).
There are some things about using a Mac that a PC user will NEVER understand. It's not about specs or choices or price. There's something about a computer that doesn't give me trouble. I g33ked out plenty in my youth. Now I need to get work done.
-p
ps - did I mention how much I like being able to uninstall an application by just throwing the damn thing away? I've been using a Mac for almost 4 years and that still amazes me.
I will always have Winamp > iTunes... for the simple fact that I hate Quicktime, and wished apple would adopt something like XviD or DivX. Instead of AAC how about Ogg Vorbis, or some other open sourced file format, instead of creating more propreitary formats that you hate microsoft for.
Just 2 More Cents.
DivX, XviD, Ogg Vorbis and AAC are media formats/codecs - QuickTime is not. QuickTime can handle all four of them, if you have the codecs installed.
As an experienced debater, I generally distance myself from this sort of thread, as I see no hope of actually getting a point across to anyone who does not already agree with me, but I really must say one thing:
Scavenger (do you mind if I capitalize your name?), there's these things called spelling and grammar. Come on! If you want anyone to give your argument serious consideration, proofread it! If you don't pay attention to what you're writing, why should we? That goes for the rest of you, too.
This is a whole trolling's topic... but anyway I have a little time to spare...
I have a lot of Mac but I have also an Asus nForce 2 Athlon XP2700+ 1GB DDR400 Corsair RAM Radeon 9700 Pro with nothing fancy installed a part XP Pro, Studio MX and some games... Can you tell me why Windows Media Player 9, Real One, etc. are slow as molasses and image ugly when playing streaming movies or downloaded movies ? When I use Quicktime "Architecture" on my PC or on my Mac it's all good : fluid, good sound, good image. I NEVER understood people complaining with Quicktime on PC ! When I use the other competitor it takes a long time to download the stream and the quality is really bad. For information this is not a problem with my internet DSL connection +/- 350 k/s.
Oh and by the way, I use exactly the same software on my PC than on my Mac : Adobe Suite, Studio MX, Office AND even games !!! (Sim City 4, Unreal 2003, Frozen Throne, Dungeon Siege and soon Age of Mythology, C&C General, Halo). There is only a few game that I would like to see on the Mac : HL2, Vicecity, BF 1942.
For your point I never had a single problem with my PC since january 2003 a part when my brother play Frozen Throne all days... sometimes the PC hangs or the screen goes blank... whatever. This is by someone who have the latest update of all my hardware/software (a whole lot more than on OS X) and scan with Norton AV MANUALLY every week...
In final what I can say is "multitasking", "easy of use" , "enjoying computer experience" are just some words on PC.
Go to www.3ivx.com. That whips Xvid's ASS. And guess what, you use it with QuickTime. Which beats any other player, or media converter or editor, for quick work. If you want a machine that allows you to work without viruses, pop ups, or other crap, get a Mac. Otherwise go play games on your PC.
Guys, do not start a flame war. scavanger is making legitimate points from a PC user's perspective. They may be misinformed points, but that's why this is a discussion forum. We can educate each other and help each other to learn and grow.
If you don't have a civil answer for him, DON'T REPLY. Your posts will be edited and deleted if you harass him or anyone else. I've already edit ed and deleted a few. Note that you will also be considered for account suspension. I will not take this matter lightly.
Both WMP 9 and Real are horrid players. I think the quicktime player is horrid as well.. I run everything through Winamp, and will continue to do so.
Also, popup's are not PC exclusive. Popups are made from something called javascript.. the evil thing that netscape created. Your browser just has the ability to block them. Just becuase another one doesn't, does not mean that they are PC specific... most people just use IE becuase it's simple.
Also, as elarier said about system wide scripting support. Unix was a shell that had a UI built on top of it. Most unix computers dont' even have a GUI in many cases and can do everything from the shell... Windows was not designed like this. Its meerly 2 different OS Designs. You can still do scripts in Windows using DOS, I do it all the time to automate my customers backups, scandisks, and the like. I'll admit scripting support would be great, but what do you really need it for? Give me a few uses please.
Also, the fact that people still encode stuff in real is foolish. Real sucks both on the Mac and on the PC I think everyone can agree with that.
Both WMP 9 and Real are horrid players. I think the quicktime player is horrid as well.. I run everything through Winamp, and will continue to do so.
Have you triedVLC? It's my favourite movie player for Windows (although it doesn't compare with MPlayer for Linux and Mac OS X... and it doesn't play Real).
Quote:
Originally posted by scavanger
Also, as elarier said about system wide scripting support. Unix was a shell that had a UI built on top of it. Most unix computers dont' even have a GUI in many cases and can do everything from the shell... Windows was not designed like this. Its meerly 2 different OS Designs. You can still do scripts in Windows using DOS, I do it all the time to automate my customers backups, scandisks, and the like. I'll admit scripting support would be great, but what do you really need it for? Give me a few uses please.
Batch files are terrible. Terrible terrible terrible. Not to mention the lack of command-line programs in the first place for windows. With a Mac, you can write a script to check if there have been (for example) 1000 or more images in a folder haven't been modified in the past week, resize and compress the images and burn them to a CD. Then send an e-mail to the sysadmin asking them to pick up the CD.
Why not buy something of comparable speeds on the PC front and have and unoptimized windows box that cost me half as much, and can run 20x more programs.
You're absolutely right....20x more useless programs. I mean I'm sure there are A LOT more virus protection and utilities programs out there for the PC....who could argue against that?
Also, as elarier said about system wide scripting support. Unix was a shell that had a UI built on top of it. Most unix computers dont' even have a GUI in many cases and can do everything from the shell... Windows was not designed like this. Its meerly 2 different OS Designs. You can still do scripts in Windows using DOS, I do it all the time to automate my customers backups, scandisks, and the like. I'll admit scripting support would be great, but what do you really need it for? Give me a few uses please.
I'm talking about AppleScript, not a Unix script (though AppleScript can hook into python etc.). Applescript allows automation of almost any major application on the Mac. For example, you can attach a script to a folder such that when a group of image files are dropped into that folder, for each file photoshop launches, resizes and rotates the image, saves it, quits, then Graphic Converter launches, examines the image, and if it's larger than 200K compresses it to 200K and saves it, then quits, then Filemaker launches and adds it to a database of photos, then quits, then the photo itself is copied to a remote server and the originals erased.
AppleScript controls not only the operating system, but the applications on that system as well.
PCs arnt too bad, they just seem a bit utilitarian. I do concede a competent PC user can keep a clean and efficient system.
One thing you cant argue with is that Microsoft has such bad taste! Its a multibillion company and they cant design an elegant UI. Hopefully they'll update the font antialiasing in Windows, it looks like !#$*
How many users are advanced enought to code scripts tho? Not many.
In all honesty, probably only a little less then the percentage of PC users who know how to NOT have their computer get all messed up. Many who can fix their PC but few who can have it NOT get messed up.
Comments
The fact that you keep saying Windows is less perfect then Mac is trolling to be honest with you. You have only provided the fact that windows crashes... I atleast can atleast say a few problems that surround macs. The major one is the lack of software.
Regardless of what you may think or say, Windows can be as perfectly stable as OSX if you get compentent people to run them. That is a fact.
Originally posted by scavanger
Honestly I'd rather see a format that both PC and Mac's could adopt that way consumers wouldn't be afaird to purchese music. If both Mac and PC's used one codec, the whole media content in computers would be so much better... I don't ever think that WMV will be really used on the mac, nor do I think AAC will be really used on the PC... to me Vorbis and XviD are the file formats that will make everyone place nice atleast where it counts.
But that's not even realistic. No codec is going to be good for all uses. A user doesn't want to download a movie trailer using a codec like pixlet, and a production designer will never be satisfied with the low quality of XviD. Different codecs only matter to me when I can't play them. I can play wmv files on my mac. I can play vorbis with iTunes. I don't care what codec they use.
The fact that you keep saying Windows is less perfect then Mac is trolling to be honest with you.
Only on a Windows forum would it be trolling.
You have only provided the fact that windows crashes... I atleast can atleast say a few problems that surround macs. The major one is the lack of software.
Fine. Problems with windows: The entire registry model. MDI. Poor security. Virii. Poor system-wide scripting support. Very poor font handling and support. Poor color correction. Terrible application install/uninstall/movement. Poor dialog UI layouts (rows of re-ordering tabs, advanced tabs upon advanced buttons, etc.). Task based interface. Menu bar in each window. Spastic mouse tracking. Maximize vs. Zoom. Mediocre multitasking. File browsing and management. And of course it's ugly.
Originally posted by scavanger
I'll admit that my dislike of quicktime in general is trolling. However my point still stands that there are better codecs out there... Ogg Vorbis and XviD are things we really want to push for, so we can break down the proprietary formats.
QuickTime.
Is.
Not.
A.
Codec.
QuickTime is an entire, extensible cross-platform architecture for creating and handling time-sensitive data.
You do realize, don't you, that you can get QuickTime to play Ogg Vorbis files via a plug-in? It's a plug-in architecture. That's how it works.
What your gripe probably boils down to is the lackluster QuickTime Player for Windows, not QuickTime itself. The .MOV file format (which, again, can contain MP3 or Ogg or whatever you please) is deprecated now in favor of MPEG-4, whose file format is based on ... *drumroll* .MOV.
Apple could of easily added a security part on to Vorbis, and then sent it back to the community like they have done previously. Honestly I'd rather see a format that both PC and Mac's could adopt that way consumers wouldn't be afaird to purchese music. If both Mac and PC's used one codec, the whole media content in computers would be so much better... I don't ever think that WMV will be really used on the mac, nor do I think AAC will be really used on the PC... to me Vorbis and XviD are the file formats that will make everyone place nice atleast where it counts.
You think Ogg Vorbis and Xvid will go anywhere on the PC?! AAC's already on the PC, by the way, and at least there are fewer obstacles to adopting it than there are for a truly proprietary format like WMA.
Let me make one thing absolutely clear: AAC is to MPEG-4 as MP3 is to MPEG-2. AAC is the new MP3, literally. It's as open and as available as MP3 is, with the added benefit of copy protection. The #1 online music store and the #1 portable music player already use it, and other jukeboxes on Windows already support it.
Regardless of what you may think or say, Windows can be as perfectly stable as OSX if you get compentent people to run them. That is a fact.
It can be, yes, although I've seen it fall down in all kinds of fascinating ways even at the hands of highly competent people. However, fair-weather stability is not interesting. I wouldn't even consider it stability: I could get months-long uptimes in Mac OS 9, too, but that doesn't make it rock solid, and it doesn't mean that the effort I went to to ensure those uptimes couldn't have been better spent doing work. A system which just runs with little to no knowledgeable intervention is a better system.
And, incidentally, I wouldn't call either Windows or Mac OS X stable relative to really solid operating systems like VMS. But you have to accept some corner-cutting to get a machine at personal computer prices.
I can work faster on a Mac because things are well-thought out and consistent
I don't care that my CPU speed is less than half of what I could get in a Dell or Gateway or Toshiba. I don't care that I can't play a gazillion games. Hell, I don't even care that I can't get a decent financial application on the Mac.
What matters to me, and what MOST Mac-bashers don't understand is the experience of using my computer.
I use my computer 85% of the time I'm awake. Programming, designing, reading, writing. It's MOST important to me that if I want to get the path for a file, I don't need to remember it, I just drag it to the terminal window I'm working in. It's MOST important to me that I can have 20 applications open at once and I can easily find what I'm looking for. It's MOST important to me to be able to open my email without fear of getting a virus in an attachment.
Did I mention that I sorta like having standard UNIX tools and paths at my disposal? It's nice that I can design a site on my computer, upload it to my server and not need to change a damn thing to get it working (because while the testing server - my computer - doesn't necessarily have to be non-IIS, you can be damn sure that my real server won't be anything but Apache).
There are some things about using a Mac that a PC user will NEVER understand. It's not about specs or choices or price. There's something about a computer that doesn't give me trouble. I g33ked out plenty in my youth. Now I need to get work done.
-p
ps - did I mention how much I like being able to uninstall an application by just throwing the damn thing away? I've been using a Mac for almost 4 years and that still amazes me.
Originally posted by Amorph
with the added benefit of copy protection
I'm sorry, I just can't contain myself
Originally posted by scavanger
I will always have Winamp > iTunes... for the simple fact that I hate Quicktime, and wished apple would adopt something like XviD or DivX. Instead of AAC how about Ogg Vorbis, or some other open sourced file format, instead of creating more propreitary formats that you hate microsoft for.
Just 2 More Cents.
DivX, XviD, Ogg Vorbis and AAC are media formats/codecs - QuickTime is not. QuickTime can handle all four of them, if you have the codecs installed.
AAC is an ISO standard btw.
Scavenger (do you mind if I capitalize your name?), there's these things called spelling and grammar. Come on! If you want anyone to give your argument serious consideration, proofread it! If you don't pay attention to what you're writing, why should we? That goes for the rest of you, too.
I have a lot of Mac but I have also an Asus nForce 2 Athlon XP2700+ 1GB DDR400 Corsair RAM Radeon 9700 Pro with nothing fancy installed a part XP Pro, Studio MX and some games... Can you tell me why Windows Media Player 9, Real One, etc. are slow as molasses and image ugly when playing streaming movies or downloaded movies ? When I use Quicktime "Architecture" on my PC or on my Mac it's all good : fluid, good sound, good image. I NEVER understood people complaining with Quicktime on PC ! When I use the other competitor it takes a long time to download the stream and the quality is really bad. For information this is not a problem with my internet DSL connection +/- 350 k/s.
Oh and by the way, I use exactly the same software on my PC than on my Mac : Adobe Suite, Studio MX, Office AND even games !!! (Sim City 4, Unreal 2003, Frozen Throne, Dungeon Siege and soon Age of Mythology, C&C General, Halo). There is only a few game that I would like to see on the Mac : HL2, Vicecity, BF 1942.
For your point I never had a single problem with my PC since january 2003 a part when my brother play Frozen Throne all days... sometimes the PC hangs or the screen goes blank... whatever. This is by someone who have the latest update of all my hardware/software (a whole lot more than on OS X) and scan with Norton AV MANUALLY every week...
In final what I can say is "multitasking", "easy of use" , "enjoying computer experience" are just some words on PC.
Originally posted by Barto
I'm sorry, I just can't contain myself
I'm glad your sarcasm detector is that finely honed.
If you don't have a civil answer for him, DON'T REPLY. Your posts will be edited and deleted if you harass him or anyone else. I've already edit ed and deleted a few. Note that you will also be considered for account suspension. I will not take this matter lightly.
Originally posted by Barto
I'm sorry, I just can't contain myself
well at least safari animates gifs right now. No there was no real point to this post.
Also, popup's are not PC exclusive. Popups are made from something called javascript.. the evil thing that netscape created. Your browser just has the ability to block them. Just becuase another one doesn't, does not mean that they are PC specific... most people just use IE becuase it's simple.
Also, as elarier said about system wide scripting support. Unix was a shell that had a UI built on top of it. Most unix computers dont' even have a GUI in many cases and can do everything from the shell... Windows was not designed like this. Its meerly 2 different OS Designs. You can still do scripts in Windows using DOS, I do it all the time to automate my customers backups, scandisks, and the like. I'll admit scripting support would be great, but what do you really need it for? Give me a few uses please.
Also, the fact that people still encode stuff in real is foolish. Real sucks both on the Mac and on the PC I think everyone can agree with that.
Originally posted by scavanger
Both WMP 9 and Real are horrid players. I think the quicktime player is horrid as well.. I run everything through Winamp, and will continue to do so.
Have you triedVLC? It's my favourite movie player for Windows (although it doesn't compare with MPlayer for Linux and Mac OS X... and it doesn't play Real).
Originally posted by scavanger
Also, as elarier said about system wide scripting support. Unix was a shell that had a UI built on top of it. Most unix computers dont' even have a GUI in many cases and can do everything from the shell... Windows was not designed like this. Its meerly 2 different OS Designs. You can still do scripts in Windows using DOS, I do it all the time to automate my customers backups, scandisks, and the like. I'll admit scripting support would be great, but what do you really need it for? Give me a few uses please.
Batch files are terrible. Terrible terrible terrible. Not to mention the lack of command-line programs in the first place for windows. With a Mac, you can write a script to check if there have been (for example) 1000 or more images in a folder haven't been modified in the past week, resize and compress the images and burn them to a CD. Then send an e-mail to the sysadmin asking them to pick up the CD.
Barto
Originally posted by scavanger
Why not buy something of comparable speeds on the PC front and have and unoptimized windows box that cost me half as much, and can run 20x more programs.
You're absolutely right....20x more useless programs. I mean I'm sure there are A LOT more virus protection and utilities programs out there for the PC....who could argue against that?
Originally posted by scavanger
Also, as elarier said about system wide scripting support. Unix was a shell that had a UI built on top of it. Most unix computers dont' even have a GUI in many cases and can do everything from the shell... Windows was not designed like this. Its meerly 2 different OS Designs. You can still do scripts in Windows using DOS, I do it all the time to automate my customers backups, scandisks, and the like. I'll admit scripting support would be great, but what do you really need it for? Give me a few uses please.
I'm talking about AppleScript, not a Unix script (though AppleScript can hook into python etc.). Applescript allows automation of almost any major application on the Mac. For example, you can attach a script to a folder such that when a group of image files are dropped into that folder, for each file photoshop launches, resizes and rotates the image, saves it, quits, then Graphic Converter launches, examines the image, and if it's larger than 200K compresses it to 200K and saves it, then quits, then Filemaker launches and adds it to a database of photos, then quits, then the photo itself is copied to a remote server and the originals erased.
AppleScript controls not only the operating system, but the applications on that system as well.
One thing you cant argue with is that Microsoft has such bad taste! Its a multibillion company and they cant design an elegant UI. Hopefully they'll update the font antialiasing in Windows, it looks like !#$*
Originally posted by scavanger
How many users are advanced enought to code scripts tho? Not many.
In all honesty, probably only a little less then the percentage of PC users who know how to NOT have their computer get all messed up. Many who can fix their PC but few who can have it NOT get messed up.