confederate flag
i am disgusted by the number of people in this state who "proudly" display the confederate flag as a means to show pride in their history/culture. when questioned about its role in regards to racism, these people say that the flag represents their southern heritage but in no way represents racism. it is an outrage to hear this, in my opinion. the confederate flag does NOT display texas or southern heritage, but in fact displays a very dark time in this country's history. for these people to take pride in this, but yet deny the flag's true representation is in itself true ignorance or simply bigotry. if you want to represent your state, then put up a texas flag, or better yet, represent your COUNTRY with an american flag (sometimes it seems like texans are more proud to be a texan than to be an american, which in itself is disgusting IMO). how the hell does the confederate flag represent anything other than a racist and terrible time in our history? how can anyone be proud of this?!?! every day that i spend in the south i am more and more disgusted to be here, and every day i have to walk past rooms and pickups with their displayed flags of hate...
just gotta vent this...
just gotta vent this...
Comments
Well, I'm a Northwesterner who moved to North Carolina, and have actually changed my mind over this.
I used to think the Confederate flag was on about the same level as a white KKK hood. Obviously racist, etc, etc, etc.
You know what it was originally used for? It was the Confederate Battle Flag, not the flag of the Confederacy. It was the banner for the soldiers, not the politicians, and was used, as most battle flags are, to honor them after the war.
Now, you may disagree with me, and that's fine, but I maintain that the vast majority of soldiers in any conflict are people just like anyone else, and that their deaths deserve some honor. Does that apply to everyone in any conflict? No. But as a general rule? Yes.
The fact that some redneck racist idiots have adopted the flag as a rallying point annoys me to the same point that the fact that my frickin' *CREDIT CARD* has an American flag on it. Both are perverting a symbol of something that should be considered as honorable for other, selfish purposes.
It doesn't mean I hate the symbol though. I've grown to have little problem with the Confederate flag itself... only the ways in which it is absconded with by morons for their own purposes.
If someone honestly and truly believes that it symbolizes, for them, strictly a heritage pride, and does not symbolize racism... then that's what it means, to them. It may mean something different to you. That's the wonderful and infuriating things about symbolism, after all... everyone brings their own interpretation to the table. There is no absolute truth in such things.
We all see things we do not like. I would be willing to bet you are such that you would have a short temper if you had to live in Mexico. They do not drive hondas and of course if they are not honda drivers they must be the scum of the earth.
I see more in your rants that tell something about you more so than what your rants say about "Texas" or "Southerners" I live in DFW and while I drive a truck it does not make me any less "human" or any less "intelligent". You know many hispanic men drive trucks to do work that many white snobs like yourself are "too good" to do. So sit back and talk down people.
What ever makes you happy alliance.
Fellowship
If the Confederate flag had a caricature grinning over a huge slice of watermelon while holding a bucket of fried chicken, then I might agree with you, _ alliance _.
Just like the swastika, the Confederate flag has more than one association. Are you going to force all your local Hindu and Buddhist shrines to have their swastikas removed?
Texas and the "South" are not the only states or areas with "back woods" lower-educated members of the population. You need get out more and you will see that ignorance and less-educated people exist in every state, and indeed in every country. The trick is to live where you can feel comfortable. If you are in an area with a ratio of un-educated to educated that is too high for your standards then you need to re-locate. After all, why stay?
This is not to insult anyone here as I do not care to insult but many in Texas have German backgrounds. Just look at the names of the small towns and look at the names in the phone directory. I have run into some in the smaller towns (outside of the metro area) who have views that I would not agree with and their family goes back to German ancestory. This being said not all Germans are any such way. Just as not all Texans are any such way. I prefer to live in areas and visit areas with educated people vs/ ignorant people but even so we need to help to bring those behind us up to speed if we have a chance.
Again if you are in an area that disturbs you either try to change it one person at a time or move to a place where you feel comfortable. Just starting a rant of a thread is not going to do any good.
Not all Texans live as racist, backwards rednecks. If they were I would be the first to move.
A few Pictures of Dallas for those who think all Texans live in a bigoted, racist, past.
We could use less generalizations in this world.
Not all Palestinians are hate-filled terrorists,
Not all Texans or "Southerners" are red-necks.
Can we agree to learn to moderate our Threads?
Fellowship
I don't like the Nazi flag one little bit..it makes me shudder.
But on the other hand I actually like the confederate flag because ( politics aside ) it is a beautiful design.
I wish our crappy australian flag was half as well designed..
As regards a "political" comparison, we did get close to our own "rebel " flag..
it is called the Eureka Flag.
And this is all that remains of the battle torn standard...
Most people don't know that many Americans, Irish, Italians ( including a companion of Garibaldi redshirts ) as well as Germans & Poles, all stood beneath its colours..willing to lay down their lives rather than suffer under the oppresive yoke of British colonialism...
And yet, even this flag is tarnished by the subsequent racist violence endured by chinese workers living in Australia ( as coolies ) and who were considered inferior to whites...
So you see, God in his wisdom gave us two eyes, a "good" seeing eye & a "bad" seeing eye. He did this knowing that if we use both eyes together..we will see things as they really are.....
...... A very human mix of good & bad...
Originally posted by Aquafire
If I may say..
I don't like the Nazi flag one little bit..it makes me shudder.
Well, that's because symbol was corrupted in the first half of the last century. Had the Nazi party not chosen the swastika, I'm sure such a flag wouldn't make you cringe...it's quite generic looking actually...
What's ironic is that the swastika was a symbol of good luck before all that...and in addition to appearing in eastern religions, it has also appeared in celtic, native american and other cultures...
Originally posted by Eugene
What's ironic is that the swastika was a symbol of good luck before all that...and in addition to appearing in eastern religions, it has also appeared in celtic, native american and other cultures...
Actually, the swastika was used by the Romans as well, especially the more immoral generations of them.
With respect to the thread at hand though: I once heard a very good explanation as to why exactly the confederate flag might be offensive. It was truly the symbol of an enemy of the United States. The Confederate States were, at one time, more opposed to the US than Iraq and Al Qaeda together are today (maybe because of its kinship). Their flag was the symbol of that enmity. Especially if the following is true:
originally by Kickaha
You know what it was originally used for? It was the Confederate Battle Flag, not the flag of the Confederacy. It was the banner for the soldiers, not the politicians, and was used, as most battle flags are, to honor them after the war.
The US won, and the South today is not part of the Confederate States, but of the United States. Waving the flag of the Confederates therefor is tantamount to treason. It is much like waving a Nazi flag today, or even during WWII. Like waving a Soviet flag during the cold war.
You see it: the biggest problem for the confederates is that they no longer exist to make peace. Waving a Soviet flag now is probably no problem at all. As is waving a Union Jack (which it surely wasn't around 1776). Nazi Germany, however, no longer exists, and its flag will forever signify only one thing, or collection of things.
In the initial stages the civil war was fought along State Vs Union grounds...& was about whether or not the states (who had all voluntarily joined the Union ) had the right to leave when they wished. It was about secession. Slavery was the trigger but NOT the central issue. Slavery only became the issue of focus after the Gettysburg address by Lincoln.
Most southern farmers were poor and never owned any slaves. On top of that, there were many "northeners who were 'racist' Proof of this lies in the many race riots that occured in New York & other places during the period of the civil war.
It is an interesting fact that Lincoln did not get elected on the anti-Slave issue. That came later. Initially he campaigned on the "Republic " issue.
And last but not least..the Confederate Flag was never outlawed by the federal government. As early as 1901 documentary film footage depicted old rebels unfurling the flag and carrying it in procession side by side with the union flag..
So much for it being an act of treason....
Originally posted by der Kopf
With respect to the thread at hand though: I once heard a very good explanation as to why exactly the confederate flag might be offensive. It was truly the symbol of an enemy of the United States. The Confederate States were, at one time, more opposed to the US than Iraq and Al Qaeda together are today (maybe because of its kinship). Their flag was the symbol of that enmity.
Man, you heard wrong. They weren't enemies of the Union states, per se. They were enemies of what the Union states had decided to force upon them. In one fell swoop, slavery would have been gone, which was what fueled the Southern economy. They weren't fighting because of hatred...they were fighting out of desperation.
The US won, and the South today is not part of the Confederate States, but of the United States. Waving the flag of the Confederates therefor is tantamount to treason. It is much like waving a Nazi flag today, or even during WWII. Like waving a Soviet flag during the cold war.
The US shouldn't believe in censorship either, right? to what end anyway...
You see it: the biggest problem for the confederates is that they no longer exist to make peace. Waving a Soviet flag now is probably no problem at all. As is waving a Union Jack (which it surely wasn't around 1776). Nazi Germany, however, no longer exists, and its flag will forever signify only one thing, or collection of things.
What's this about peace? Isn't surrendering making peace?
The North industrialized sooner, and was able to (forced to?) give up on slavery a few years before... they weren't really any better, in my opinion, when it came to race issues, just that the economics tipped the balance there before the South.
Then comes the secession issue, and blammo... slavery becomes the topic to fight over because it was seen as a primary difference that *could* be fought over. (Cynical me - good reason *to* fight over... but not the prime reason in this case, I do believe... it was the WMD issue of the day.)
I wonder what this country (countries?) would be like today if the Civil War hadn't happened, and the South had migrated to mechanized farming on its own, with its economic strength intact. Might be a very different continent.
Originally posted by Eugene
Man, you heard wrong. They weren't enemies of the Union states, per se. They were enemies of what the Union states had decided to force upon them. In one fell swoop, slavery would have been gone, which was what fueled the Southern economy. They weren't fighting because of hatred...they were fighting out of desperation.
Very hazy territory you are entering there. So they weren't ennemies per se? I guess the fact that
More Americans died in the Civil War than in all of America's other wars combined
with, on the North side
67,058 were killed in action, while 43,012 later died of battle wounds
is not enmity, just a difference of opinion? I wonder what would've have happened if they'd actually been mad at each other. But, it turns out that it was all a friendly barroom brawl. Phew!
The US shouldn't believe in censorship either, right? to what end anyway...
Nobody here has called for a ban on the rag. My stance would be: private citizens do what they want, and I'm free to think that confederate flag waving jackasses are brainless apemen with very little, if any at all, forehead. However, when the government itself starts waving that flag, something should be done. Was there not some animosity about the fact that South Carolina's government mansion or something had the flag waving on top?
What's this about peace? Isn't surrendering making peace?
Well, now it is I who dwell in the hazy fields. I'm saying: The Soviet Union and Germany, to name two, have made peace with the US, and now have a completely (or at least very) different relationship to it. Therefore, the Soviet Union's flag signifies today's relatively friendly Soviet Union. The same holds for Germany's flag. The Confederation, however, ceased to exist after the Civil War, and it's relationship to the US has therefore never been revisited. It is therefore possible to believe that the confederate flag is a symbol of an ennemy, and waving it is betrayal. It's a mental construct. I don't know if I can put it much clearer (and thereby, I complain about my lack of skills rather than yours).
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
_ alliance _
We all see things we do not like. I would be willing to bet you are such that you would have a short temper if you had to live in Mexico. They do not drive hondas and of course if they are not honda drivers they must be the scum of the earth.
I see more in your rants that tell something about you more so than what your rants say about "Texas" or "Southerners" I live in DFW and while I drive a truck it does not make me any less "human" or any less "intelligent". You know many hispanic men drive trucks to do work that many white snobs like yourself are "too good" to do. So sit back and talk down people.
What ever makes you happy alliance.
Fellowship
hmm...good discussion so far--but what's all this about hondas and trucks? i didnt say anything about any of this...
only that the flag is displayed quite often on the backs of pickups.
btw, i am mexican, so i dont think your comparison is valid. sorry fellow.
every post in this thread has been relevant, except for the exception of some of fellowships, which is mostly due to the fact that he lives here, so he must see it as a personal attack...
oh, and you dont see the confederate flag in the cities, only in the small towns, a la College Station.
and when you say that i need to "get out more," i find that amusing. i was born and raised in california, where you dont see this sort of thing, so thats part of why it surprises me to see so many southerners waving their confederate flags with pride in the 21st century...
that's one of my biggest concerns. i am proud to be an AMERICAN. these people are segregating themselves from the rest of the country, and openly state that the south is better than the rest--then again if i hear "proud to be a texan" one more time, i'm gonna hurl. bah, i guess i can't understand how someone is more proud to be a member of a state or a dead country than to be part of the USA...
Originally posted by Eugene
Bo and Luke Duke were damned racist!
If the Confederate flag had a caricature grinning over a huge slice of watermelon while holding a bucket of fried chicken, then I might agree with you, _ alliance _.
Just like the swastika, the Confederate flag has more than one association. Are you going to force all your local Hindu and Buddhist shrines to have their swastikas removed?
yes, it has more than one association outside the south, perhaps. but if you were here, instead of in your sheltered existence in california, you might not think the same way...
don't forget, i have a similar perspective as you, except that i have lived both in california and the south--get back to me once you've done both and then see if you agree with your original comments...
What chaps my hide is when rednecks from non-Southern states go flying the confederate flag. That's MY history. Go get your own. They don't understand that in order to fly that flag, you have to carry around a lot of baggage.
Cheers
Scott
Originally posted by _ alliance _
i still dont understand why i see more confederate flags being hung by the residents around here than i do american flags...
that's one of my biggest concerns. i am proud to be an AMERICAN. these people are segregating themselves from the rest of the country, and openly state that the south is better than the rest--then again if i hear "proud to be a texan" one more time, i'm gonna hurl. bah, i guess i can't understand how someone is more proud to be a member of a state or a dead country than to be part of the USA...
i'm more proud to be a new yorker than an american. there are a lot of things i don't like about the country, and less things i don't like about the city. and the city roolz.
as for the flag issue, well i dont know. i don't know if u can tell, just by looking at someone if they are a racist. if they are waving or displaying the flag as a symbol of racism, its wrong. if its a matter of pride for what their ancestors did, that's another issue. i proudly carry around my great-[great-..]-grandfather's last name. (well, for the sake of anonymity, i don't tell you potential online molestors and narcs) i am proud of Erin, and near all she's produced. she has lost wars and battles, but i'd still wave her flag, even after extinction.
Originally posted by _ alliance _
yes, it has more than one association outside the south, perhaps. but if you were here, instead of in your sheltered existence in california, you might not think the same way...
don't forget, i have a similar perspective as you, except that i have lived both in california and the south--get back to me once you've done both and then see if you agree with your original comments...
I hate to tell you, but Texas ain't the South. Go hop on I-10 or I-20 and drive over to Mississippi, Alabama, or Georgia if you want to see the South. Do ya'll even have kudzu over in College Station?
Cheers
Scott
Originally posted by Eugene
Just like the swastika, the Confederate flag has more than one association. Are you going to force all your local Hindu and Buddhist shrines to have their swastikas removed?
I have seen a situation where this was tried, but it was a restaurant. Since it wasn't a place of worship, but a business, some locals tried to get them to get rid of that "hateful symbol." Didn't work, as it seems that culture has a history that goes further back than the 1900s.
Considering that symbols are the basis of characters in our alphabets, doesn't it make sense to say they are protected as free speech?
Originally posted by JimDreamworx
I have seen a situation where this was tried, but it was a restaurant. Since it wasn't a place of worship, but a business, some locals tried to get them to get rid of that "hateful symbol." Didn't work, as it seems that culture has a history that goes further back than the 1900s.
Considering that symbols are the basis of characters in our alphabets, doesn't it make sense to say they are protected as free speech?
of course it's legal to display them, i just don't understand why anyone would want to...
to piss people off?