Do you consider it legal if you own the vinyl?

Posted:
in General Discussion edited January 2014
So you have thousands of songs on your Mac/iPod. Some or all may even be legally purchased from iTMS.



Now, I've run across people who believe that it's okay to own illegally downloaded songs because they own the original vinyl. I'm kind of on the fence with this one. I suppose one has at one time supported that artist by buying his album...but then again, not in the current digital higher fidelity format.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 27
    Quote:

    Originally posted by satchmo

    but then again, not in the current digital higher fidelity format.



    Hell yeah. . . vinyls are more delicate and in the end appreciate if the band is good. I've got some Metallica vinyls (Imports from England) that I bought years ago at a used book store for $8 a piece. Now they are something like $60 a piece.



    Electrical Engineering section:

    Furthermore, there's no way to perfectly reconstruct the audio signal from CD. Most cheap DAC's do little more than a zero order hold. (i.e. you get a signal waveform composed of rectangular blocks). Really good DAC's go through a deep feeback loop to provide damn good signal reconstruction, but it's not perfect. The fabrication of a record is entirely analog, and the signal is pure, at least in concept.



    In the end, noise and material degradation make CD sound better, but music people still think tube amps are better, and audiophiles think records are better. I don't think anyone will object to downloading mp3's you have the vinyls of.
  • Reply 2 of 27
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Well, no one but the RIAA... :P



  • Reply 3 of 27
    bungebunge Posts: 7,329member
    Well it's not an illegal download if you own the vinyl. The RIAA wants you to think it is, but it's not.
  • Reply 4 of 27
    I've done it for a few All About Eve 12" singles that I got ages ago, as I wanted the b-side tracks on CD since I no longer have a turntable. However, they've since released a CD with many of the track on, so I bought that . Hopefully, they'll release the other ones on CD too...



    Dave.
  • Reply 5 of 27
    Quote:

    Originally posted by bunge

    Well it's not an illegal download if you own the vinyl. The RIAA wants you to think it is, but it's not.



    I don't think that owning the vinyl affects the legality in any way.
  • Reply 6 of 27
    Quote:

    Originally posted by stupider...likeafox

    I don't think that owning the vinyl affects the legality in any way.



    Sure it does. You can make a copy of something you own for personal use (i.e. fair use). I think you can even make a friend a copy. So therefore, if you have the vinyl, technically, the mp3 is just a copy of that. So what if you didn't actually copy it from the vinyl. If I have a CD of something, it's well within my rights to say, make a mix tape, a mix CD, or rip and store in my computer/ipod. As long as I don't share it it's perfectly legal. Again, RIAA would like you to buy another copy (and I'm sure that they're working on mechanisms, e.g. DRM, to force you to do that) but there's no legal requirement.
  • Reply 7 of 27
    shetlineshetline Posts: 4,695member
    I don't know if owning the vinyl (or other media) makes any legal difference or not, but I personally don't feel any moral qualms about downloading a copy of a song that I have in another format.



    Out of a collection of around 3000 iTunes songs, this issue applies to a total of two songs that I have, one of which I have on an old 45, the other on a DVD.



    If the RIAA wanted to be bastards about this (if???), they could bring up "digital remastering" and all of that, and say that the download you got via Kazaa or Limewire was a copy of a different recording than the one you own, even if it was the same performance by the same artist. Also, although you have certain limited rights for making copies of your own copies of a piece of music for your own use, perhaps that doesn't give you a clear legal right to use a copy somebody else made from his or her own copy.
  • Reply 8 of 27
    powerdocpowerdoc Posts: 8,123member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by shetline

    I don't know if owning the vinyl (or other media) makes any legal difference or not, but I personally don't feel any moral qualms about downloading a copy of a song that I have in another format.



    Out of a collection of around 3000 iTunes songs, this issue applies to a total of two songs that I have, one of which I have on an old 45, the other on a DVD.



    If the RIAA wanted to be bastards about this (if???), they could bring up "digital remastering" and all of that, and say that the download you got via Kazaa or Limewire was a copy of a different recording than the one you own, even if it was the same performance by the same artist. Also, although you have certain limited rights for making copies of your own copies of a piece of music for your own use, perhaps that doesn't give you a clear legal right to use a copy somebody else made from his or her own copy.




    Right



    If it's legal to remasterize your own vinyls, it's illegal to download a remasterized version of this copy.
  • Reply 9 of 27
    cosmonutcosmonut Posts: 4,872member
    I think it would be found (in court) that the same rules would apply to a recording you have purchased on vinyl and have ALSO acquired in the digital realm. You may use the digital copy for your own personal use because you have purchased the *rights* through owning the vinyl, but any other distribution would be prohibited.



    If challenged, your attorneys could say that the technology as it exists now was not available when you originally purchased the vinyl, and that the technological advancements since then does not discount your previous purchase of the *rights* to that music. Incidentally, any album released today both on vinyl AND CD share the same copyrights while the music is physically recorded on different media.



    Remember, rights follow the use, not the media.
  • Reply 10 of 27
    ast3r3xast3r3x Posts: 5,012member
    On P2p services how can you be sure it's the same version
  • Reply 11 of 27
    ibrowseibrowse Posts: 1,749member
    Either way it's still illegal for the person to to offer it for download, I believe.
  • Reply 12 of 27
    cosmonutcosmonut Posts: 4,872member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by iBrowse

    Either way it's still illegal for the person to to offer it for download, I believe.



    Sure is.
  • Reply 13 of 27
    yevgenyyevgeny Posts: 1,148member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by nguyenhm16

    Sure it does. You can make a copy of something you own for personal use (i.e. fair use). I think you can even make a friend a copy. So therefore, if you have the vinyl, technically, the mp3 is just a copy of that. So what if you didn't actually copy it from the vinyl. If I have a CD of something, it's well within my rights to say, make a mix tape, a mix CD, or rip and store in my computer/ipod. As long as I don't share it it's perfectly legal. Again, RIAA would like you to buy another copy (and I'm sure that they're working on mechanisms, e.g. DRM, to force you to do that) but there's no legal requirement.



    With the obvious problem being THAT YOUR MP3 IS NOT A COPY OF THE VINYL! Did you put your vinyl in a sound booth and made a recording of your vinyl? No? Then fair use does not apply because you are not copying the thing that you own. Getting an MP3 from another source that is supposed to be the thing that you have a copy of is not the same thing as making a copy of what you own.



    Fair use would be copying the song that you already have. You have "fair use" of the copy of the song on the vinyl. You DID NOT buy the rights to the song. Only the musician/label has that degree of fair use!
  • Reply 14 of 27
    I don't know about legalities-I'm guessing that if you didn't rip from your original and instead let someone else do it, then it's illegal. However, my Karma has no problems with downloading a digitized version of something that I've bought and is sitting in a corner in the closet. The problem is that once you have that download finger poised on the return button....



    For anybody still doing illegal downloads, i suggest you think what it is like to be the musicians how have to make a living on the work that they sell. They deserve support and need it if they are going to continue to make a living and produce more music for us to enjoy.
  • Reply 15 of 27
    yevgenyyevgeny Posts: 1,148member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by CosmoNut

    I think it would be found (in court) that the same rules would apply to a recording you have purchased on vinyl and have ALSO acquired in the digital realm. You may use the digital copy for your own personal use because you have purchased the *rights* through owning the vinyl, but any other distribution would be prohibited.



    If challenged, your attorneys could say that the technology as it exists now was not available when you originally purchased the vinyl, and that the technological advancements since then does not discount your previous purchase of the *rights* to that music. Incidentally, any album released today both on vinyl AND CD share the same copyrights while the music is physically recorded on different media.



    Remember, rights follow the use, not the media.




    Dude, you don't own any rights to the songs that you have copies of. Don't confuse the right to make a copy with rights to the song itself.
  • Reply 16 of 27
    yevgenyyevgeny Posts: 1,148member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Carson O'Genic

    I don't know about legalities-I'm guessing that if you didn't rip from your original and instead let someone else do it, then it's illegal. However, my Karma has no problems with downloading a digitized version of something that I've bought and is sitting in a corner in the closet. The problem is that once you have that download finger poised on the return button....



    The only music that I would be cool with downloading would be music that is no longer produced and the label is out of business. I would buy it given the chance, but it is gone and not for sale. In that case, nobody is losing any money by my downloading.
  • Reply 17 of 27
    yevgenyyevgeny Posts: 1,148member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Powerdoc

    Right



    If it's legal to remasterize your own vinyls, it's illegal to download a remasterized version of this copy.




    Yes. The basic thought behind this would be that you are using someone else's fair use rights to get the copy, not your fair use right.
  • Reply 18 of 27
    If I own music in vinyl, cd or music cassette - I still have purchased the music for my own use.
  • Reply 19 of 27
    yevgenyyevgeny Posts: 1,148member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Panther

    If I own music in vinyl, cd or music cassette - I still have purchased the music for my own use.



    You have fair use rights to the vinyl, cd or music cassette versions. If you only have a casette, you don't have fair use to the raw stereo AIFF file that the record companies have. You have not purchased rights to the music. Rights to the music are different than fair use.
  • Reply 20 of 27
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Yevgeny

    The only music that I would be cool with downloading would be music that is no longer produced and the label is out of business. I would buy it given the chance, but it is gone and not for sale. In that case, nobody is losing any money by my downloading.



    I generally agree with you and I my down-loading sins are but a few. I abused things much more in my youth by taping other people's records. However, with iTunes music store those days are done. I'm happy to pay those who deserve it.



    I wonder how you feel about rare recordings, e.g. live recordings that may have been broadcast but are not for sale. I've seen such recordings online for my favorite band, but the band itself does not sell them or probably ever will. The recordings are almost certainly illegal, but there are no other options. Kind of like the bootleg collections I've seen some Dead Heads have. They want this stuff because they love every note Jerry ever played, but not every note is actually for sale.
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