I'm struggling to think of truly pretty BMW's. There aren't that many.
Their X5 is inoffensive. The previous two generations of 5 series were both nice for their times, but only the last was a pretty sedan. The last 3 series was pretty too, and looked good as a coupe. The last 7's were stately and formal, good enough for what they were.
But when you come down to it, BMW has never really been known for pretty vehicles. The Z3 was kinda cool once they fixed its ass, and I actually liked the Z3 coupe, not pretty at all, but angry in all the good ways.
The new Z4, 7 series, and latest 5, and new 6 seem to be reversing some of the progress BMW was finally making with their sedan/coupe shapes.
Sure, the 6 is not really offensive, but Eugene is right, it's a Pontaic with nicer surface detailing. Is that even a compliment? Pontaic has possibly the worst surface detailing ever.
I find the 7 least offensive of all Bungle's new designs. It's different from the old model, but again, not bad for what it is, though it looks a little blocky up front, I'm getting used to it. The Z4 bothers me every time I see it, from almost every angle. And the 5 series looks a bit like some Samurai cartoon caricature of BMW as drawn by a subaru ricer.
These are premium sedans/coupes are they not?
Mercedes has improved the look of their sedans enourmously in that time. Their coupes, however, are getting a lot of confused design flourishes. Why is an F1 nose cone on a closed coupe? Too many dishonest cut lines.
Sad day when an Accord sedan/coupe is actually a nicer shape than some of Europe's best, though Honda seems to have learned a lot about proportion from the good people at Peugot, who seem to be forgetting it.
Getting back to the Crossfire. Not bad looking, mebbe they'll steal a "Kompressor" out of the Merecedes parts bin?
I am shocked to hear that my stolid '03 Accord sedan could be anything more than workmanlike.... are auto design enthusiasts actually saying my car is nicely proportioned!?
I'm struggling to think of truly pretty BMW's. There aren't that many.
Their X5 is inoffensive. The previous two generations of 5 series were both nice for their times, but only the last was a pretty sedan. The last 3 series was pretty too, and looked good as a coupe. The last 7's were stately and formal, good enough for what they were.
The X5 is fine. The current 3-Series is fine. Even the 7-Series is growing on me, but the sweeping headlamps and the grillework of the new 5-Series/6-Series is abominable. The previous 5-Series wasn't pretty at all. The 5-series of two generations ago was the best, and that's one reason why it lasted so long. You see more 5s here from the two generations than you do from the one generation ago.
Quote:
But when you come down to it, BMW has never really been known for pretty vehicles. The Z3 was kinda cool once they fixed its ass, and I actually liked the Z3 coupe, not pretty at all, but angry in all the good ways.
The M-Coupe is beautiful.
Quote:
The new Z4, 7 series, and latest 5, and new 6 seem to be reversing some of the progress BMW was finally making with their sedan/coupe shapes.
The Z4 ... ugh
Quote:
I find the 7 least offensive of all Bungle's new designs. It's different from the old model, but again, not bad for what it is, though it looks a little blocky up front, I'm getting used to it. The Z4 bothers me every time I see it, from almost every angle. And the 5 series looks a bit like some Samurai cartoon caricature of BMW as drawn by a subaru ricer.
Yesyesyesyesyes.
Quote:
Mercedes has improved the look of their sedans enourmously in that time. Their coupes, however, are getting a lot of confused design flourishes. Why is an F1 nose cone on a closed coupe? Too many dishonest cut lines.
Here's the thing. Mercedes-Benzes still look like Mercedes-Benzes.
I'm struggling to think of truly pretty BMW's. There aren't that many.
BMW's have always been more about performance over style (although the yuppies of the 80's made it fashionable to own one). For pure driving satisfaction, few are able to match BMW.
As much as I dislike the new 5, I do think the 6 and 7 are much better. The upcoming 3 looks horrendous. And if I'm correct, I believe the name is Chris Bangle.
The Crossfire is at least an attempt to shake things up on the American car design front. Other cars of note is the new Acura TL and the new Mazda 3 (great sporty econo car).
crossfire looks macho, too bad it dances like a bitch -- the SLK platform, drivetrain, and even the interior (look at it, it's an SLK with chrysler badging and details!) are all awful.
Bangle's stuff works.
Once the entire line is reworked, it'll become much more evident the grand plan
there are two aesthetics - the 'sculptural' forms of the 6 and 7, and the 'flame surfacing' which is evident on the Z4 and on the CS1 concept.
the line will be a progression from flame-surfacing on the lower end cars to the more 'sculptural' on the higher end. witness the 5- it's a mix of the two aesthetics. it's got some of the 'sculptural' form language, but with the flame surfacing surface detailing.
the upcoming 4 and 3 will probably be the same way. again, because they're BMW's bread and butter offerings, they can't be too radical.
Having a new 545i in the family, it's a hell of a car. a hell of a car. iDrive in its revised form is easy to use, hell, it's even INTUITIVE! Active steering is the mutt's nuts - going from driving the 5 to any other car, even another BMW - is disconcerting because the other car feels so unresponsive compared to the 5.
The 6 is gorgeous. Photos don't do it justice - the design has gravitas and elegance in person. Any comparison to a Pontiac is unwarranted, the only similarity is the twin-grilles. As soon as an actual order time is established, pretty sure one's (maybe even a cabrio!) making its way into the family garage.
The new TL is an uglier version of the TSX. The side and rear end designs of the TSX are nicer than the TL's. That groove in the side and the wonky rear just kill the car. Like the TSX though, very clean for a Japanese design.
270 HP + FWD = Torque steer. Problem.
Mazda 3 looks quirky, but good. Not sure how well the RX-8 tail schema translates to a hatch or a small sedan.
Satchmo, i'm really curious what pictures you've seen of the upcoming 3.
None of the spy shots have any real idea what it's going to look like, they're all cobbled together from other models...
Eugene: Since when do Benzes look like Japanoboxes?
A Benz should be big, square, boxy. Always have been, always should be.
Save the roadsters, the SL is fine, but the SLR and upcoming SLK are both disgusting. Too busy. The F1 nose detail = ugh. Cheesy.
They'll undoubtedly apply that disgusting little detail to the otherwise good SL design, though.
The previous CLK vs the new CLK, the new one looks cheap and feminine by comparison. Mercedeses are big brutes of cars, in the same vein as how Bentleys are to be 'locomotives on wheels' --
Funny, how the Lexus LS looks more like a proper iconic Mercedes than the S class does.
Mercedes needs to abandon their current design direction, as it does not have any driving clarity of vision-- it's just application of the same swoopy, droopy (see the new CLS concept car?), melty language to different forms, and putting some sort of rounded, or half-rounded headlights and vaguely triangular taillights on it.
The Z4 is not as well-resolved as it should be. I agree. The rear end proportions are the problem. A longer Z8 style tail would have obviated many of the concerns with the current design. The surfacing details are fascinating, though, and the interior is, again, fantastic. There was no evolutionary course to be taken from the Z3- revolution had to occur.
It's bolder than anything else put forth by a luxury carmaker in the past few years, at least since the Audi TT - i respect the design for that.
It did win Automobile magazine's design of the year award, in its defence.
I take serious issue with several elements of many of his designs.
The taillights on the 5, i'm not sold on.
The 7's front is not aggressive enough. The door handles are monstrosities. The sleeker units from the 5/6 should have been used. The back would look much nicer with the smoother detailing of the 6 series, and without the useless strip of lights across the middle of it.
The X3's bumpers are too busy and would look better body-colored. Exposed headlight washer points are bad form on the X3 and the X5.
You forget that Bangle isn't the designer of these individual cars -- he's merely the 'vision' guy.
It might pain you to know that he oversaw the design of the Z8 and the E46 3 as well, both eminently good looking cars.
I was growing tired of boring designs long before Bangle's new crop appeared. To see fresh design languages coming out of my preferred marque (and therefore coupled with excellent driving dynamics) is good.
That's funny, I figured that's where he ripped most of the comments from. I have no doubt in my mind that the designs are functional, and that they are a dream to drive. My 535i is 13 years old, but still more fun to drive than my pop's Jag XK or any of my friends' Japanese performance minded imports.
As it stands now, BMW might as well be Banglean Motor Works.
If i'd ripped the comments from any car magazine, the opinions expressed would have been in complete opposition to mine.
terms and language, maybe. I'm not a designer, i'd never heard anyone talk about design languages or form purity until i started reading about car design. i concede you that.
That's funny, I figured that's where he ripped most of the comments from. I have no doubt in my mind that the designs are functional, and that they are a dream to drive. My 535i is 13 years old, but still more fun to drive than my pop's Jag XK or any of my friends' Japanese performance minded imports.
As it stands now, BMW might as well be Banglean Motor Works.
I do not follow cars as much as I used to, I just really like his style of writing, he is very... i don't know... um ...colorful or ... descriptive. I dunno, something.
It seems that BMW is committed to this designer's work, despite the hue and cry to fire him from the people who don't like his designs. Could somebody explain to me what the fascination with the boxy design IS because it's never been attractive in a visceral way - only in a "that car costs a lot of money" way.
Also, the "flame" language needs more explanation to those of us who are lay-men in auto-design discussions...I came from an architectural background so it mightn't be too hard for me to make the transition...but I need a few cues. Does the flame analogy have to do with the "3 to 5 perfect lines" idea? That might need explaining too.
Regarding the Crossfire, I thought that its hood was attractive but I couldn't decide how I felt about the rear end...powerful haunches, but was it too clipped? When you guys talk about it being like the SLK does that mean that it does in fact use the same off-the-shelf hardware or is it just a design resemblance we're talking about here?
I do not follow cars as much as I used to, I just really like his style of writing, he is very... i don't know... um ...colorful or ... descriptive. I dunno, something.
Thanks
Don't mind Eugene, he forgot his anti-bitter meds today. Poor thing.
Don't get me wrong dude...I still think that BMWs are some of the best driving cars ever made. I just personally don't like their new design direction.
The new 5 series has a few angles at which it looks really nice. I even saw a AC body kit on one and it was really nice but I really dislike the rear end of it. There are a lot of unneeded creases and body lines in the new design direction that BMW is taking. No other car shows this more than the Z4 which completely makes me sick to my stomach. The 7 series' has the weird rear end like the 6 series does but I like the other features of 7. The 6 series is pretty nice but I would rather get a SL-class for my money. I know there are a lot of 6 and 8 series fans that will totally happy with the new 6 and that is great but its just not for me. To me the new direction that BMWs design department, with the guidance of Chris B. is weird. It is a love it or hate it look. I will see what hte future holds for them. Oh one last thing about BMW...I love the Z8 and always will. It is a classic look. It is a great blend of old and new. Even the current generation 3-series is a nice car. What a radical departure for BMW.
I personally am a Mercedes lover. I think the SL-class is one of the most beautiful 2 seaters on the market. I also love the CL-class. The CL an SL have beautiful lines. The after market kits even makes them looks more beautiful. I have my issues with the F1 nose of the SLR and upcoming SLK but the rest of the SLR is amazing. I wanna see what MB has in store for the SLK, it should be interesting. I also love the E-class. The E55 is one of my favorite sedans unde 100k.
I actually really like the new Acura TL. That is my next car. It has the best bang for the buck in its segment. You would expect the 270 at the front wheels would cause a lot of torque steer but it doesn't. It is a smooth, well mannered car. It is also solidly built. The car overall has a very Italian designed look to it. I like the TSX too. a fully-loaded TSX comes in at under 30, which is a steal in my book.
One other car company that I like is Audi. No one has mentioned them. They make very nicely designed and very well built cars...actually that holds true for VW as well. Some of the best built cars on the market. The A8 while a little on the bulky side, is a great car. I can do without the A6 but I like the A4 and more than that, the S4. That car screams! Great car but a little pricey.
In the end, this whole conversation is sooooooo subjective. Each car manufacturer has things going for and against them. BMW makes some of the best driving cars (although I have heard really mixed reviews of the new 5-series' new steering. some say it is akwardly balanced). To me Mercedes' look better than BMWs, but to others don't. In the end, we will drive what we can afford and want. ENJOY! At least we aren't stuck with Pintos!!
Comments
Their X5 is inoffensive. The previous two generations of 5 series were both nice for their times, but only the last was a pretty sedan. The last 3 series was pretty too, and looked good as a coupe. The last 7's were stately and formal, good enough for what they were.
But when you come down to it, BMW has never really been known for pretty vehicles. The Z3 was kinda cool once they fixed its ass, and I actually liked the Z3 coupe, not pretty at all, but angry in all the good ways.
The new Z4, 7 series, and latest 5, and new 6 seem to be reversing some of the progress BMW was finally making with their sedan/coupe shapes.
Sure, the 6 is not really offensive, but Eugene is right, it's a Pontaic with nicer surface detailing. Is that even a compliment? Pontaic has possibly the worst surface detailing ever.
I find the 7 least offensive of all Bungle's new designs. It's different from the old model, but again, not bad for what it is, though it looks a little blocky up front, I'm getting used to it. The Z4 bothers me every time I see it, from almost every angle. And the 5 series looks a bit like some Samurai cartoon caricature of BMW as drawn by a subaru ricer.
These are premium sedans/coupes are they not?
Mercedes has improved the look of their sedans enourmously in that time. Their coupes, however, are getting a lot of confused design flourishes. Why is an F1 nose cone on a closed coupe? Too many dishonest cut lines.
Sad day when an Accord sedan/coupe is actually a nicer shape than some of Europe's best, though Honda seems to have learned a lot about proportion from the good people at Peugot, who seem to be forgetting it.
Getting back to the Crossfire. Not bad looking, mebbe they'll steal a "Kompressor" out of the Merecedes parts bin?
Originally posted by Eugene
I would guess it's a "midlife crisis man car for those who can't afford a German import"
I am shocked to hear that my stolid '03 Accord sedan could be anything more than workmanlike.... are auto design enthusiasts actually saying my car is nicely proportioned!?
(I'm never in style)
Originally posted by Matsu
I'm struggling to think of truly pretty BMW's. There aren't that many.
Their X5 is inoffensive. The previous two generations of 5 series were both nice for their times, but only the last was a pretty sedan. The last 3 series was pretty too, and looked good as a coupe. The last 7's were stately and formal, good enough for what they were.
The X5 is fine. The current 3-Series is fine. Even the 7-Series is growing on me, but the sweeping headlamps and the grillework of the new 5-Series/6-Series is abominable. The previous 5-Series wasn't pretty at all. The 5-series of two generations ago was the best, and that's one reason why it lasted so long. You see more 5s here from the two generations than you do from the one generation ago.
But when you come down to it, BMW has never really been known for pretty vehicles. The Z3 was kinda cool once they fixed its ass, and I actually liked the Z3 coupe, not pretty at all, but angry in all the good ways.
The M-Coupe is beautiful.
The new Z4, 7 series, and latest 5, and new 6 seem to be reversing some of the progress BMW was finally making with their sedan/coupe shapes.
The Z4 ... ugh
I find the 7 least offensive of all Bungle's new designs. It's different from the old model, but again, not bad for what it is, though it looks a little blocky up front, I'm getting used to it. The Z4 bothers me every time I see it, from almost every angle. And the 5 series looks a bit like some Samurai cartoon caricature of BMW as drawn by a subaru ricer.
Yesyesyesyesyes.
Mercedes has improved the look of their sedans enourmously in that time. Their coupes, however, are getting a lot of confused design flourishes. Why is an F1 nose cone on a closed coupe? Too many dishonest cut lines.
Here's the thing. Mercedes-Benzes still look like Mercedes-Benzes.
Originally posted by Matsu
I'm struggling to think of truly pretty BMW's. There aren't that many.
BMW's have always been more about performance over style (although the yuppies of the 80's made it fashionable to own one). For pure driving satisfaction, few are able to match BMW.
As much as I dislike the new 5, I do think the 6 and 7 are much better. The upcoming 3 looks horrendous. And if I'm correct, I believe the name is Chris Bangle.
The Crossfire is at least an attempt to shake things up on the American car design front. Other cars of note is the new Acura TL and the new Mazda 3 (great sporty econo car).
Bangle's stuff works.
Once the entire line is reworked, it'll become much more evident the grand plan
there are two aesthetics - the 'sculptural' forms of the 6 and 7, and the 'flame surfacing' which is evident on the Z4 and on the CS1 concept.
the line will be a progression from flame-surfacing on the lower end cars to the more 'sculptural' on the higher end. witness the 5- it's a mix of the two aesthetics. it's got some of the 'sculptural' form language, but with the flame surfacing surface detailing.
the upcoming 4 and 3 will probably be the same way. again, because they're BMW's bread and butter offerings, they can't be too radical.
Having a new 545i in the family, it's a hell of a car. a hell of a car. iDrive in its revised form is easy to use, hell, it's even INTUITIVE! Active steering is the mutt's nuts - going from driving the 5 to any other car, even another BMW - is disconcerting because the other car feels so unresponsive compared to the 5.
The 6 is gorgeous. Photos don't do it justice - the design has gravitas and elegance in person. Any comparison to a Pontiac is unwarranted, the only similarity is the twin-grilles. As soon as an actual order time is established, pretty sure one's (maybe even a cabrio!) making its way into the family garage.
The new TL is an uglier version of the TSX. The side and rear end designs of the TSX are nicer than the TL's. That groove in the side and the wonky rear just kill the car. Like the TSX though, very clean for a Japanese design.
270 HP + FWD = Torque steer. Problem.
Mazda 3 looks quirky, but good. Not sure how well the RX-8 tail schema translates to a hatch or a small sedan.
Satchmo, i'm really curious what pictures you've seen of the upcoming 3.
None of the spy shots have any real idea what it's going to look like, they're all cobbled together from other models...
Eugene: Since when do Benzes look like Japanoboxes?
A Benz should be big, square, boxy. Always have been, always should be.
Save the roadsters, the SL is fine, but the SLR and upcoming SLK are both disgusting. Too busy. The F1 nose detail = ugh. Cheesy.
They'll undoubtedly apply that disgusting little detail to the otherwise good SL design, though.
The previous CLK vs the new CLK, the new one looks cheap and feminine by comparison. Mercedeses are big brutes of cars, in the same vein as how Bentleys are to be 'locomotives on wheels' --
Funny, how the Lexus LS looks more like a proper iconic Mercedes than the S class does.
Mercedes needs to abandon their current design direction, as it does not have any driving clarity of vision-- it's just application of the same swoopy, droopy (see the new CLS concept car?), melty language to different forms, and putting some sort of rounded, or half-rounded headlights and vaguely triangular taillights on it.
The Z4 is not as well-resolved as it should be. I agree. The rear end proportions are the problem. A longer Z8 style tail would have obviated many of the concerns with the current design. The surfacing details are fascinating, though, and the interior is, again, fantastic. There was no evolutionary course to be taken from the Z3- revolution had to occur.
It's bolder than anything else put forth by a luxury carmaker in the past few years, at least since the Audi TT - i respect the design for that.
It did win Automobile magazine's design of the year award, in its defence.
Hardly.
I take serious issue with several elements of many of his designs.
The taillights on the 5, i'm not sold on.
The 7's front is not aggressive enough. The door handles are monstrosities. The sleeker units from the 5/6 should have been used. The back would look much nicer with the smoother detailing of the 6 series, and without the useless strip of lights across the middle of it.
The X3's bumpers are too busy and would look better body-colored. Exposed headlight washer points are bad form on the X3 and the X5.
You forget that Bangle isn't the designer of these individual cars -- he's merely the 'vision' guy.
It might pain you to know that he oversaw the design of the Z8 and the E46 3 as well, both eminently good looking cars.
I was growing tired of boring designs long before Bangle's new crop appeared. To see fresh design languages coming out of my preferred marque (and therefore coupled with excellent driving dynamics) is good.
Originally posted by NaplesX
You should write for a car magazine. Good stuff.
That's funny, I figured that's where he ripped most of the comments from. I have no doubt in my mind that the designs are functional, and that they are a dream to drive. My 535i is 13 years old, but still more fun to drive than my pop's Jag XK or any of my friends' Japanese performance minded imports.
As it stands now, BMW might as well be Banglean Motor Works.
terms and language, maybe. I'm not a designer, i'd never heard anyone talk about design languages or form purity until i started reading about car design. i concede you that.
Originally posted by Eugene
That's funny, I figured that's where he ripped most of the comments from. I have no doubt in my mind that the designs are functional, and that they are a dream to drive. My 535i is 13 years old, but still more fun to drive than my pop's Jag XK or any of my friends' Japanese performance minded imports.
As it stands now, BMW might as well be Banglean Motor Works.
I do not follow cars as much as I used to, I just really like his style of writing, he is very... i don't know... um ...colorful or ... descriptive. I dunno, something.
Also, the "flame" language needs more explanation to those of us who are lay-men in auto-design discussions...I came from an architectural background so it mightn't be too hard for me to make the transition...but I need a few cues. Does the flame analogy have to do with the "3 to 5 perfect lines" idea? That might need explaining too.
Regarding the Crossfire, I thought that its hood was attractive but I couldn't decide how I felt about the rear end...powerful haunches, but was it too clipped? When you guys talk about it being like the SLK does that mean that it does in fact use the same off-the-shelf hardware or is it just a design resemblance we're talking about here?
Originally posted by NaplesX
I do not follow cars as much as I used to, I just really like his style of writing, he is very... i don't know... um ...colorful or ... descriptive. I dunno, something.
Thanks
Don't mind Eugene, he forgot his anti-bitter meds today. Poor thing.
Originally posted by Jonathan
Thanks
Don't mind Eugene, he forgot his anti-bitter meds today. Poor thing.
No really, you should write a review of a car, probably BMW and send it to some mags, You would be a breath of fresh air to them i think.
I too have very little clue about what you said, but I got the feel of it...
Does that make any sense?
Originally posted by Jonathan
The F1 nose detail = ugh. Cheesy.
They'll undoubtedly apply that disgusting little detail to the otherwise good SL design, though.
Whenever I see the F1 nose
Don't get me wrong dude...I still think that BMWs are some of the best driving cars ever made. I just personally don't like their new design direction.
The new 5 series has a few angles at which it looks really nice. I even saw a AC body kit on one and it was really nice but I really dislike the rear end of it. There are a lot of unneeded creases and body lines in the new design direction that BMW is taking. No other car shows this more than the Z4 which completely makes me sick to my stomach. The 7 series' has the weird rear end like the 6 series does but I like the other features of 7. The 6 series is pretty nice but I would rather get a SL-class for my money. I know there are a lot of 6 and 8 series fans that will totally happy with the new 6 and that is great but its just not for me. To me the new direction that BMWs design department, with the guidance of Chris B. is weird. It is a love it or hate it look. I will see what hte future holds for them. Oh one last thing about BMW...I love the Z8 and always will. It is a classic look. It is a great blend of old and new. Even the current generation 3-series is a nice car. What a radical departure for BMW.
I personally am a Mercedes lover. I think the SL-class is one of the most beautiful 2 seaters on the market. I also love the CL-class. The CL an SL have beautiful lines. The after market kits even makes them looks more beautiful. I have my issues with the F1 nose of the SLR and upcoming SLK but the rest of the SLR is amazing. I wanna see what MB has in store for the SLK, it should be interesting. I also love the E-class. The E55 is one of my favorite sedans unde 100k.
I actually really like the new Acura TL. That is my next car. It has the best bang for the buck in its segment. You would expect the 270 at the front wheels would cause a lot of torque steer but it doesn't. It is a smooth, well mannered car. It is also solidly built. The car overall has a very Italian designed look to it. I like the TSX too. a fully-loaded TSX comes in at under 30, which is a steal in my book.
One other car company that I like is Audi. No one has mentioned them. They make very nicely designed and very well built cars...actually that holds true for VW as well. Some of the best built cars on the market. The A8 while a little on the bulky side, is a great car. I can do without the A6 but I like the A4 and more than that, the S4. That car screams! Great car but a little pricey.
In the end, this whole conversation is sooooooo subjective. Each car manufacturer has things going for and against them. BMW makes some of the best driving cars (although I have heard really mixed reviews of the new 5-series' new steering. some say it is akwardly balanced). To me Mercedes' look better than BMWs, but to others don't. In the end, we will drive what we can afford and want. ENJOY! At least we aren't stuck with Pintos!!