UI inconsistencies

24

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 65
    i love it i love it i love it




    image
  • Reply 22 of 65
    ibrowseibrowse Posts: 1,749member
    Don't you fscking dare!



    Nobody has been hurt in this thread yet.
  • Reply 23 of 65
    aquaticaquatic Posts: 5,602member
    Quote:

    I don't care about the "destructive behavior" thing, I told it to erase the messages and damn it, I don't want to have to use the mouse to click the okay button when I can just hit return and do what I intended to do in the first place. That bugs me - anytime there are excessive warning dialogs for everything. Sure, I wouldn't mind one for Safari if I try to close the window or quit the application when there are a bunch of tabs open, but I've noticed (when using Windows, mind you) that it asks confirmation to move a file to the trash, and also confirmation to erase it. These warnings can be turned off but it's still annoying. And if each of these warnings had "No" as the default then it would just be twice as bad.





    That's true. WinDOwS users get used to "clicking through." That's why the idiots got the "profile" virus. "Install Adware?" Sure! "Throw out importandll.dll?" Sure! "Would you like to turn dangerous ports and services you will never use but viruses will?" Sure!



    They click through installing programs and never read dialogues because Windows has too many. Macs don't ask retarded questions like "Do you want to move this to the Trash?" "Are you super sure?" "Is that your final answer?"
  • Reply 24 of 65
    homhom Posts: 1,098member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by eVo



    - If I delete a contact from Address Book, the contact below that one is left selected. In List/Column View in the Finder, if I delete anything, nothing is left selected. In Mail, if I delete a message, the message above that one is left selected. This is rediculous! Having this inconsistent behavior between these 3 apps (which cover all possible cases for deleting something) makes it downright frustrating when you want to delete a list of items 1 by 1. I believe Address Book's delete-then-select-the-thing-below-it method is the best.




    This is a very good example. The behavior should be the same across applications especially Apple applications. Maybe it's time Steve de-Steved the Human Interface Group.
  • Reply 25 of 65
    I say bring back Bruce Tognazzini and have him straighten things out. The Apple Human Interface Group seems to me like a very neglected part of the Apple creative process. Sadly.
  • Reply 26 of 65
    bartobarto Posts: 2,246member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kermit of Sweden

    I say bring back Bruce Tognazzini and have him straighten things out. The Apple Human Interface Group seems to me like a very neglected part of the Apple creative process. Sadly.



    The small inconsistencies in Mac OS X really stand out because most of the OS is close to perfect perfect. In Windows and Linux, the entire OS is inconsistent, so you don't notice the small mistakes. Hell, any Windows user would think we were crazy to bitch about this.



    Apple really should address this... it seems that new glitches are programmed as soon as the old ones are fixed. BUT bringing back Tog would be this. No dock, no column view, no list view, black and white interface, poor application switcher, classic style windows layering...



    Some people look back to the bad old days with nostalgia. Most people came to the Mac, or came back to the Mac, because Mac OS X kicked the platform into the 21st century. You might get consistency with Tog but you also get a self righteous bag of hot air living in the 1980s.



    Barto
  • Reply 27 of 65
    Thanks for your reply Barto!



    Quote:

    Originally posted by Barto

    The small inconsistencies in Mac OS X really stand out because most of the OS is close to perfect perfect. In Windows and Linux, the entire OS is inconsistent, so you don't notice the small mistakes.



    Agreed!



    Quote:

    Hell, any Windows user would think we were crazy to bitch about this.



    Maybe, but then I am a Windows user (future switcher) and I find this sort of discussions very interesting.



    Quote:

    Apple really should address this... it seems that new glitches are programmed as soon as the old ones are fixed. BUT bringing back Tog would be this. No dock, no column view, no list view, black and white interface, poor application switcher, classic style windows layering...



    Are you exaggerating here or did he really oppose all those improvements (Well, almost all of them are improvements. Yes Dock, I am looking at you) that you list? Where can I read more on this topic? I have read some articles on his website but I am always looking for more information on the Mac user interface.



    Quote:

    Some people look back to the bad old days with nostalgia. Most people came to the Mac, or came back to the Mac, because Mac OS X kicked the platform into the 21st century. You might get consistency with Tog but you also get a self righteous bag of hot air living in the 1980s.



    Barto




    Mac OS X is The One True Mac Operating System?



    Kermit of Sweden
  • Reply 28 of 65
    homhom Posts: 1,098member
    The now defunct MacKiDo Temple is a great resource to start understanding the basics of "Classic" Mac design. I agree whole heartedly that Tog is an ass, but that doesn't mean that there aren't issues with OSX GUI. I don't see why OSX can't have the same attention to detail and spit and polish as Mac OS 9 did. Even the difference between the Safari image and Disk Utility image I posted should be a good example. Why aren't the destructive buttons in the same place across applications? That would help alleviate some of the issues people have with having to mouse to find it, if it were always in the same place.
  • Reply 29 of 65
    dfilerdfiler Posts: 3,420member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by HOM





    This is a destructive behavior. Shouldn't the default

    action be to cancel rather than erase the emails?




    There is another problem with this dialog...



    The buttons are badly labeled. If a button performs the

    erase funciton, it should be labeled 'Erase'.



    This is my pet-peve, why label something ambiguously?

    In Windows land, it is always neccessary to read at least a

    few sentences in order to figure out what the 'Ok' button

    does. Why not just label it with the verb/action it

    performs?



    Ever notice how windows has no 'Print' button in the print

    dialog box? Users get four layers deep in properties

    and MS just assumes that you have enough knowledge to know

    which 'Ok' button will actually commense printing.



    Erase or Delete buttons should never, absolutely never,

    be labeled as 'Ok' or 'Yes' non matter whether they are

    default or not.
    Erase buttons should be labeled 'Erase'.
  • Reply 30 of 65
    homhom Posts: 1,098member
    Here is another one that I just found. In the Finder and iTunes to change the columns in list view there is a menu item for "View Options" and the keyboard command is ? J, but in Mail.app the option is it handled differently and there is no keyboard command.
  • Reply 31 of 65
    evoevo Posts: 198member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by dfiler

    There is another problem with this dialog...



    The buttons are badly labeled. If a button performs the

    erase funciton, it should be labeled 'Erase'.



    This is my pet-peve, why label something ambiguously?

    In Windows land, it is always neccessary to read at least a

    few sentences in order to figure out what the 'Ok' button

    does. Why not just label it with the verb/action it

    performs?



    Ever notice how windows has no 'Print' button in the print

    dialog box? Users get four layers deep in properties

    and MS just assumes that you have enough knowledge to know

    which 'Ok' button will actually commense printing.



    Erase or Delete buttons should never, absolutely never,

    be labeled as 'Ok' or 'Yes' non matter whether they are

    default or not.
    Erase buttons should be labeled 'Erase'.




    I agree! The bold text in this dialogue should not be "Alert" either, but rather the question something like: "Are you sure you want to erase these messages?" With smaller text underneath it giving more information such as: "This action cannot be undone."



    This sort of thing is discussed very well here.
  • Reply 32 of 65
    curmicurmi Posts: 69member
    Some of the buttons are badly labelled in some dialogs, as we've seen above. "Yes", "No"? Very poor.



    And what is with Cancel sometimes on the left, sometimes on the right?



    We have some new ones with OS X - the lock button in system preferences has no border, while every other button outside of toolbars does. Reminds me of Windows - and that isn't a good thing.



    Some windows in the finder are aqua some are metal (depending on the click of the menu bar toggle on the right). I think you stick with one or the other, not both. And personally I think the use of metal here at all was a mistake.



    Print dialogs are sometimes sheets, and sometimes windows, depending on the application.
  • Reply 33 of 65
    aquaticaquatic Posts: 5,602member
    I guess I'll put these here because they don't deserve a thread. I just installed Panther today, whoo! I immediately noticed two things in 10.3.2 though that grated my nerves.

    1) You can't select items in List View anymore. It's practically impossible. You can't start below the items and drag up with the cursor. This has been noted. It is a royal pain and I hope it gets fixed next update, because I almost exclusively use List View. Gar...

    2) In Open/Save dialogue boxes, OS X now copies Windows! Yay! No, wait. Bad. When you type in your desired file name in Windows and then click on another file in a colum, your new file name becomes the name of the file you just clicked on. WTF? That is just retarded. Now OS X has copied this annoyance. Hmm, I guess at least Windows users will feel at home being annoyed with their computer.

    3) the new "Pill" Tabs (that delineate between say PPP and Proxies in Modem in Network Prefs) are annoying and this has been mentioned. Maybe it'll change? That would be nice.

    4) Panther didn't come with Classic! Argh! If I'd have known that I would have kept my System Folder. Now I'm high and dry without one. Won't have one till I get back to college. Does anyone have a kosher (nothing added) System Folder 9.22 they could send me? Thanks in advance!

    Other than that...HELLS YEA! SPEED!

    Exposé is soooo cool.



    Edit: one bigger annoyance: Keyboard shortcuts don't work 20% of the time in Finder. Is anyone else seeing this!? Command W and Command Delete sporadically decide to just not work, until I click on a menu. This is in any view or with no windows open at all.



    Also Safari still doesn't UNDO. Is Apple planning on enabling Undo? It's really annoying if I type a beautiful Shakespearian post and accidentally delete it. That's what I had planned here and it was magnificent, now this is what you're left with.
  • Reply 34 of 65
    fahlmanfahlman Posts: 730member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Aquatic

    40 Panther didn't come with Classic!



    Call up you local Apple reseller. They'll sell you 9.2 for $20.



    Quote:

    Keyboard shortcuts don't work 20% of the time in Finder...Command W and Command Delete sporadically decide to just not work, until I click on a menu. This is in any view or with no windows open at all.



    Command W won't work if there are no windows are open
  • Reply 35 of 65
    aquaticaquatic Posts: 5,602member
    They should make Classic available for download. I have bought a few computers with it already installed but I didn't have the foresight to back up the system folder..I mean Command W wouldn't work with an open Finder Window. It's really weird. I'm going to install the latest security update and QT 6.5, maybe that will somehow fix this problem.
  • Reply 36 of 65
    aquaticaquatic Posts: 5,602member
    Not AGAIN. ****ING SHIT. DVD Player lags on 12" PowerBooks. I went through this last year with 10.2.3 and if I have to wait for 10.3.4 I'll be pissed. 10.3.2 is a lot buggier than I was led to believe on the Internet. I thought most bugs were ironed out. Nope. DVD Player unexpectedly quit on me. Finder has unexpectedly crashed almost *5* times today, doing routine stuff, opening and closing folders. Pathetic. AIM crashed too. There must be some serious bugs in Panther still...Any news on the 10.3.3 front? Also since appyling the Security Update things seem noticeable slower, like launching apps and right clicking folders in the Dock. Anyone else seeing this stuff or this just my install? There were a few small scratches on my CDs...I am getting paranoid about those.



    Also I notice back on topic that UI inconsistencies abound. OS X is getting ridiculously austere with its Metal Everwhere theme and yet at the same time garish almost like XP with the new widgets in Address Book to add things, and the random color everywhere like the Lock and Help buttons. 10.3 is a confused GUI, sort of like a crossroads between Jaguar and whatever is next, which I hope isn't completely Metal. Aqua Safari looked great in Jag, it looks ok in Panther, but Metal for most things is overbearing to my eye.
  • Reply 37 of 65
    rokrok Posts: 3,519member
    i hate to say it, but i may seriously consider going back to jaguar for a while. it's not jag's fault, but i am getting some strange gui problems in macromedia mx apps (not 2004.. i know, but i can't afford the upgrades yet). plus, my apc powerchute software isn't compatible with panther yet, which makes this nice expensive battery a much less useful heavy object tethered to my cpu.



    oh, and aquatic, i agree that i don't get the randow splash of purple for the "help" buttons, but i do like the lock buttons being colored. i often didn't realize options were lock-able because i didn't notice the icon there. i'm not noticing any slowdown though on my machine, all updates applied.



    is it just me, or are all of these "+" and "-" buttons to add and delete settings just not that, dare i say it, intuitive? i would MUCH rather have a button that actually says the words "add user" or "add preferences" or "remove/delete settings" instead of the somewhat-too-abstract plus/minus.



    i love expose, but i am still not used to the new finder window layout. it seems like one state is to much, and the alternate state is too bare bones. or maybe i just got used to the old way after so many revisions. at least you can use spring loaded folders from the directories housed there.



    plus, please tel me what sense it makes to have the right-bottom window resize thumb area control the size of the sidebar icons, yet the sidebar DIVIDER doesn't??? i mean, i'm a smart guy, but that's just strangely, uh, counterintuitive.
  • Reply 38 of 65
    aquaticaquatic Posts: 5,602member
    I like the color too. it's just inconsistent. I personally would like more Aqua and Color and a permanent end to this Metal crap. I like how they "Metal" "philosophy" lays an app out, with a Search window in the upper right, all action in the center, and all controls in one window, but the Brushed Metal itself is too austere. Also being able to grab anywhere to move a window would be nice to add to all of Aqua.



    Anyhow I just noticed yet another UI Inconsistency. The Finder in 10.3 uses the OS 9 "Watch" cursor! If you right click a file and it needs some time to think about what can open it, it displays the old black and white watch. Personally I like this more! I liked the watch more than the Beachball because it makes more sense, it actually has something to do with "time" however it is inconsistent. Panther is really a quagmire and I'm also considering going back to Jag. 10.2.6 was 100% reliable for me (except SMB but I don't use that much and don't need it, I just liked to download things from the campus network. )
  • Reply 39 of 65
    curmicurmi Posts: 69member
    The thing is, the purple help button seems to be a solution to a problem nobody had. I don't recall anyone ever saying "Where is that help button? I can't see it". I think in fact it distracts from the rest of the interface, because there is another coloured button somewhere that keeps drawing your eye away.



    As for the lock, I think it is too big and too colourful. On Jag it was small, yet elegant. But it also has no border in pPanther, making it not look like a button at all. That isn't good.



    And I agree about the + and - buttons. I spent minutes trying to work out how to add a new folder in my bookmarks in Safari the other day. And then noticed the tiny + button at the bottom. That is not intuitive.



    The Accounts panel I think is a real mess. I didn't even realise the "Login Options" was a button for a while there....
  • Reply 40 of 65
    aquaticaquatic Posts: 5,602member
    I agree the Plus/Minus buttons are dumb and that panel is a mess. I also didn't know to click there.



    Quote:

    The small inconsistencies in Mac OS X really stand out because most of the OS is close to perfect perfect. In



    Exactamundo!



    I noticed another thing that made me reeeeal frustrated today. Snap to grid on the desktop won't work. I am trying to put a folder in the lower left and it keeps snapping back!!!!!!! Argh! Sometimes it goes there until I click somewhere else again and then bam it's back! Gar...



    Edit: Is this another bug? You know how in Prefs you can now change Keyboard Shortcuts in Keyboard. For some reason the system Beeps at me when I'm in Keyboard Shortcut. I am trying to add Command N to make a new folder in Finder (I've wanted to fix that) But in the Command Shortcut field no matter what I press it beeps. Am I doing something wrong?
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