I don´t know how this relates to the rumour but is seems to be the fountain for the idea and then the rumour machine turned it into a Apple thing. Notice the iBox name.
In other words: I still don´t believe this thing. There will be no TV thingy and there will be no iPod junior (be that flash, 1" players or sub 5 gb versions). What could happen was a box that worked together with a mac and the TV, using the HD and X from the mac to store and control.
Anders: no that has no relation. I remember people said the iPod would not happen too. It seems to me that to say it definitely wont happen is as opinionated as to say it definitely will. I think any reasonable person has to admit that it is at least a possibility - which is as best as you can hope for in the run up to a MacWorld. Personally I hope it is true.
Job's has stated that people use their brains while computing but watch tv to turn their brains off. This in no way implies that he hates tv. Turning your brain off is a normal activity essential to healthy living.
It's more likely that Steve recognizes the differences between computing and television with regards to user demographics, ergonomics, and intended use. However, inter-device communication is becoming cheaper and requiring less user skill or interaction. Apple will almost certainly release a device to integrate our passive entertainment systems with our interactive computers.
I think polishing and wide-spread adoption of a few key technologies are still a few years away from making this type of product viable. These technologies include the ubiquitous use of firewire or similar interconnects on home theater components. Also critical is true plug-n-play or wireless-n-play via something like rendevous. Many manufacturers already have crude versions of such devices. Yet all of them are still only suitable for gadget geeks.
My opinion is that prototypes are close but not quite to the appliance level of usability that we expect from apple. But hey... i'm eagerly awaiting the day when that 'one last thing' is a wireless, rendevous equipped, all-purpose, home-theater component.
Job's has stated that people use their brains while computing but watch tv to turn their brains off. This in no way implies that he hates tv. Turning your brain off is a normal activity essential to healthy living.
Turning your brain off is also symptomatic of bad programming. Good programming should have you thinking about it.
This is a critical piece of the stuff I was going on about above. A very simple, small, and cheap client device for a VLC sever running on a Mac, and away we go. A 500-1000 MHz G4, a low end video chip, video outputs (including DVI), Ethernet port, 128 MB RAM, and a copy of a minimal MacOS X implementation in Flash memory, an IR transceiver, and a remote control. All in a small box.
I recall Steve saying in that conference call a few months ago that he didn't believe in convergence of Playstation and DV recording. As recording DV is very processor intensive - doing other stuff on a recording device would risk mess up a recording. There was an example of some daddy being upset because his kids had messed up a timed recording of a sportsshow while playing games on the same Playstation or whatever.
Hence, we won't see a hybrid solution where the set top box displays TV that's been recorded on the Mac. It must be a dedicated box.
I feel like should put in my two cents (although this is a rumor and probably totally nonexistent for multiple reasons). First of all, it would be about the size of a standard VCR (or these days DVD player) so it could fit nicely in with the rest of your Home Theater components. It would have a SuperDrive (DVD/CD burner), a hefty hard drive (going from 80GB, 120GB, to 250GB), a modem, ethernet, AirPort Extreme (Wi-FI, 802.11g), A USB port on the front along with a FireWire 400 port, a USB port on the back along with a FireWire 800 port, audio-out for connection to a stereo system, and a PCI port for the included TV tuner card. The Processor would not be a G3, as so many people are speculating, because for there to be any DVD burning of captured TV programs a G4 would be needed for all the MPEG-2 encoding.
It would have an installation of Mac OS X with an included program to keep it simplified on the front, but quit the program and you can see a regular Mac OS X client installation (similar to how Mac OS X server is just Mac OS X client with more programs and features and settings). The "iBox" (what a horrible name) would have a program to schedule programs (I guess similar to iCal so you can download schedules), a program to burn DVDs of the shows (A slimmed down version of iDVD), a version of iTunes to play music that you have loaded onto the massive HD (and that is streamed from over the network), and version of iPhoto to display pictures. Of course, it would be able to share all the video, pictures, and music over the network to other Macs and "iBoxes," and the Apache web server (already on Mac OS X) would serve as a way to schedule TV show recordings from the internet or on the network (thank you rendezvous). To get the TV scheduling you would have to subscribe to .Mac (such as a subscription for TiVO users), or just pay a one-time fee to get only the "iBox Scheduling" features of .Mac .
The big problem with all of this is the UI, because right now Mac OS X works well on a computer with a keyboard and a mouse. Apple would have to translate that great user experience to a TV and a remote. Of course, you would plug in a keyboard and mouse, and use the "iBox" as a computer because that is all it is. All in all, the "iBox" would be a PowerMac G4 with some more Tivo-like options and I would buy it, because, well, I am an Apple Whore and I like TV (and a TiVo would be great).
This is a critical piece of the stuff I was going on about above... All in a small box.
Wow Programmer nice catch! That this is a GNU licensed project sort of blows me away. Of course that likely means that Apple won't be using this as a code base for something similar. It does, however, show that some innovative and amazing applications are coming our way from the open source community.
I wonder if you (or any other video hip tech) could explain some of the acronyms and tech speak in that link you provided, so that mere mortals can understand the scope and breadth of what such a product might mean pertinent to this thread?
I can't resist pulling this image (to get a fair review of what you found Programmer)
EDIT: Changed it to a link for bandwidth conservation.
What we have here, is Apple doing to audio & video streaming-&-capture / encoding-&-decoding / media-centering what they did to the mp3 player w/ iPod.
Seamlessly integrating the computer into the home entertainment / media center. And sorting out the a/v connectivity jungle while they're at it.
DVD player/recorder? On yer Mac.
CD player/recorder? On your Mac.
Local streaming via QT; non-local streaming via IP-over-Firewire & QT.
Just hook up the Firewire, plug in your signal cables, power on, and run the controlling ('iHub') software & it just works.
But only on the Mac. At first.
Eventually? iMovie video store - $10 per movie in a capturable MPEG-4 stream. Disney/Pixar titles featured.
Only on the Mac. At first.
World conquest by QT/MP4, one living room at a time.
Oh, one more thing: the bluetooth remote lets you control everything with your Mac...from the couch.
What we have here, is Apple doing to audio & video streaming-&-capture / encoding-&-decoding / media-centering what they did to the mp3 player w/ iPod.
Seamlessly integrating the computer into the home entertainment / media center. And sorting out the a/v connectivity jungle while they're at it.
DVD player/recorder? On yer Mac.
CD player/recorder? On your Mac.
Local streaming via QT; non-local streaming via IP-over-Firewire & QT.
Just hook up the Firewire, plug in your signal cables, power on, and run the controlling ('iHub') software & it just works.
But only on the Mac. At first.
Eventually? iMovie video store - $10 per movie in a capturable MPEG-4 stream. Disney/Pixar titles featured.
Only on the Mac. At first.
World conquest by QT/MP4, one living room at a time.
Oh, one more thing: the bluetooth remote lets you control everything with your Mac...from the couch.
Great stuff, but I would hate the winding Firewire cable from my couch to the TV set...
Yes, I agree it's the hub, but what you later describe is not a hub. You're describing a Media Center type of PC. It's the Swiss Army Ronco Miracle Do Everything Device that really doesn't do anything well at all.
TiVo has the most refined PVR experience. Let them have it.
Apple doesn't make the best home theater components. Let the industry leaders have that too.
By glomming everything into one package, you are paying for extras you don't need. Why get TWO Media Center PCs just so one person can work and one person can play? Would they both be hooked into the home theater set-up with an A/B switch type of deal? Of course not. Media Center PCs actually less of a hubbed network and more of a distributed network. You end up getting a whole bunch of redundant components.
Let the CE guys catch up. They'll add RJ45 and FireWire on the back of their components. They'll add Zeroconf support. It'll all be good. Just don't get wrapped up in the HTPC/Media Center nonsense.
Yes, I agree it's the hub, but what you later describe is not a hub. You're describing a Media Center type of PC. It's the Swiss Army Ronco Miracle Do Everything Device that really doesn't do anything well at all.
Interesting take on things.
'The computer is the hub' means that the computer is both central and dominant; it does NOT mean that the hub is a special kind of computer.
Quote:
TiVo has the most refined PVR experience. Let them have it.
Apple doesn't make the best home theater components. Let the industry leaders have that too.
By glomming everything into one package, you are paying for extras you don't need. Why get TWO Media Center PCs just so one person can work and one person can play?
Let the CE guys catch up.[/B]
Actually, I was describing the PMG4 sitting next to me, hooked up to a computer-controlled switching A/V interconnect box w/ capture & encode/decode capabilities & limited storage. Point being, w/ one of these boxes and a Mac, you can pump iTunes out to the living-room stereo or use QT to pipe video files or DVDs to the TV, or capture incoming video & either encode & store (in the box), encode (in the box) & import (to the Mac), or import and let your Mac handle the encoding.
This is what I'm saying, but the computer doesn't want to live near the TV and people are wiring houses with Ethernet, not FireWire (or they are going wireless). The TV somehow needs to connect to the home network, so some kind of a gadget must live with the TV but it needn't be very large. In fact, with newer TVs, you might even avoid having a processor if the TV can decode an HDTV data stream itself -- then the box is really just an Ethernet adapter, plus some kind of a "channel" selector that lets you choose which recorded program to pull off the MacOS X streaming video server.
Wireless is feasible with this as well -- a DVD data stream is only about 1.5 MB/sec (maximum), which is less than 15 Mbit/sec... well within the capabilities of 802.11b/g.
I would buy three of these devices in a second if Apple shipped them, and then a DVR product for my PowerMac to go with it. Then I'd upgrade my PowerMac to one of those shiny new 3 GHz dual G5s so that I wouldn't notice when the family was watching recorded TV while I was playing games.
Actually, I was describing the PMG4 sitting next to me, hooked up to a computer-controlled switching A/V interconnect box w/ capture & encode/decode capabilities & limited storage. Point being, w/ one of these boxes and a Mac, you can pump iTunes out to the living-room stereo or use QT to pipe video files or DVDs to the TV, or capture incoming video & either encode & store (in the box), encode (in the box) & import (to the Mac), or import and let your Mac handle the encoding.
The only component that should be between you computer and your A/V components is the network, whether using TCP/IP and UTP like Cat6 or possibly FireWire. The Mac shouldn't be much more than a piece of network storage. It should only serve up the files to be accessed instead of decoding them. There shouldn't be an intermediate Apple Media Controller in all this. It's unnecessary and confusing. We were supposed to believe the Mac was the digital hub, not some faceless set-top box.
Your Mac serves the files. Your stereo processes MP3, AAC, Ogg Vorbis, whatever. Your video tuner/PVR processes HDTV, MPEG-4, QuickTime, etc.
Apple definitely wants to stay out of the STB market, IMO. Between giants like TiVo, cable companies and DSS providers, there's really no room to join in.
The only component that should be between you computer and your A/V components is the network, whether using TCP/IP and UTP like Cat6 or possibly FireWire. The Mac shouldn't be much more than a piece of network storage. It should only serve up the files to be accessed instead of decoding them. There shouldn't be an intermediate Apple Media Controller in all this. It's unnecessary and confusing. Were were supposed to believe the Mac was the digital hub, not tome faceless set-top box.
Your Mac serves the files. Your stereo processes MP3, AAC, Ogg Vorbis, whatever. Your video tuner/PVR processes HDTV, MPEG-4, QuickTime, etc.
Apple definitely wants to stay out of the STB market, IMO. Between giants like TiVo, cable companies and DSS providers, there's really no room to join in.
Comments
In other words: I still don´t believe this thing. There will be no TV thingy and there will be no iPod junior (be that flash, 1" players or sub 5 gb versions). What could happen was a box that worked together with a mac and the TV, using the HD and X from the mac to store and control.
It's more likely that Steve recognizes the differences between computing and television with regards to user demographics, ergonomics, and intended use. However, inter-device communication is becoming cheaper and requiring less user skill or interaction. Apple will almost certainly release a device to integrate our passive entertainment systems with our interactive computers.
I think polishing and wide-spread adoption of a few key technologies are still a few years away from making this type of product viable. These technologies include the ubiquitous use of firewire or similar interconnects on home theater components. Also critical is true plug-n-play or wireless-n-play via something like rendevous. Many manufacturers already have crude versions of such devices. Yet all of them are still only suitable for gadget geeks.
My opinion is that prototypes are close but not quite to the appliance level of usability that we expect from apple. But hey... i'm eagerly awaiting the day when that 'one last thing' is a wireless, rendevous equipped, all-purpose, home-theater component.
Originally posted by dfiler
Job's has stated that people use their brains while computing but watch tv to turn their brains off. This in no way implies that he hates tv. Turning your brain off is a normal activity essential to healthy living.
Turning your brain off is also symptomatic of bad programming. Good programming should have you thinking about it.
Stumbled across this today, related to the VLC 0.7.0 release that was just announced: http://www.videolan.org/streaming/
This is a critical piece of the stuff I was going on about above. A very simple, small, and cheap client device for a VLC sever running on a Mac, and away we go. A 500-1000 MHz G4, a low end video chip, video outputs (including DVI), Ethernet port, 128 MB RAM, and a copy of a minimal MacOS X implementation in Flash memory, an IR transceiver, and a remote control. All in a small box.
Hence, we won't see a hybrid solution where the set top box displays TV that's been recorded on the Mac. It must be a dedicated box.
Originally posted by Rhumgod
In terms of revenue from the iTMS, you are correct.
Equivalent to the revenue generated for MS by IE - and just as effective, so far.
I feel like should put in my two cents (although this is a rumor and probably totally nonexistent for multiple reasons). First of all, it would be about the size of a standard VCR (or these days DVD player) so it could fit nicely in with the rest of your Home Theater components. It would have a SuperDrive (DVD/CD burner), a hefty hard drive (going from 80GB, 120GB, to 250GB), a modem, ethernet, AirPort Extreme (Wi-FI, 802.11g), A USB port on the front along with a FireWire 400 port, a USB port on the back along with a FireWire 800 port, audio-out for connection to a stereo system, and a PCI port for the included TV tuner card. The Processor would not be a G3, as so many people are speculating, because for there to be any DVD burning of captured TV programs a G4 would be needed for all the MPEG-2 encoding.
It would have an installation of Mac OS X with an included program to keep it simplified on the front, but quit the program and you can see a regular Mac OS X client installation (similar to how Mac OS X server is just Mac OS X client with more programs and features and settings). The "iBox" (what a horrible name) would have a program to schedule programs (I guess similar to iCal so you can download schedules), a program to burn DVDs of the shows (A slimmed down version of iDVD), a version of iTunes to play music that you have loaded onto the massive HD (and that is streamed from over the network), and version of iPhoto to display pictures. Of course, it would be able to share all the video, pictures, and music over the network to other Macs and "iBoxes," and the Apache web server (already on Mac OS X) would serve as a way to schedule TV show recordings from the internet or on the network (thank you rendezvous). To get the TV scheduling you would have to subscribe to .Mac (such as a subscription for TiVO users), or just pay a one-time fee to get only the "iBox Scheduling" features of .Mac .
The big problem with all of this is the UI, because right now Mac OS X works well on a computer with a keyboard and a mouse. Apple would have to translate that great user experience to a TV and a remote. Of course, you would plug in a keyboard and mouse, and use the "iBox" as a computer because that is all it is. All in all, the "iBox" would be a PowerMac G4 with some more Tivo-like options and I would buy it, because, well, I am an Apple Whore and I like TV (and a TiVo would be great).
Originally posted by Programmer
... Stumbled across this today, related to the VLC 0.7.0 release that was just announced: http://www.videolan.org/streaming/
This is a critical piece of the stuff I was going on about above... All in a small box.
Wow Programmer nice catch! That this is a GNU licensed project sort of blows me away. Of course that likely means that Apple won't be using this as a code base for something similar. It does, however, show that some innovative and amazing applications are coming our way from the open source community.
I wonder if you (or any other video hip tech) could explain some of the acronyms and tech speak in that link you provided, so that mere mortals can understand the scope and breadth of what such a product might mean pertinent to this thread?
I can't resist pulling this image (to get a fair review of what you found Programmer)
EDIT: Changed it to a link for bandwidth conservation.
Check this Out!
NOT a 'set-top box' a la "convergency theory";
NOT a P/DVR a la TiVO.
Simple. Basic. Must-have.
What we have here, is Apple doing to audio & video streaming-&-capture / encoding-&-decoding / media-centering what they did to the mp3 player w/ iPod.
Seamlessly integrating the computer into the home entertainment / media center. And sorting out the a/v connectivity jungle while they're at it.
DVD player/recorder? On yer Mac.
CD player/recorder? On your Mac.
Local streaming via QT; non-local streaming via IP-over-Firewire & QT.
Just hook up the Firewire, plug in your signal cables, power on, and run the controlling ('iHub') software & it just works.
But only on the Mac. At first.
Eventually? iMovie video store - $10 per movie in a capturable MPEG-4 stream. Disney/Pixar titles featured.
Only on the Mac. At first.
World conquest by QT/MP4, one living room at a time.
Oh, one more thing: the bluetooth remote lets you control everything with your Mac...from the couch.
Originally posted by Capt. Obvious
OK, guys, the COMPUTER is the digital hub.
NOT a 'set-top box' a la "convergency theory";
NOT a P/DVR a la TiVO.
Simple. Basic. Must-have.
What we have here, is Apple doing to audio & video streaming-&-capture / encoding-&-decoding / media-centering what they did to the mp3 player w/ iPod.
Seamlessly integrating the computer into the home entertainment / media center. And sorting out the a/v connectivity jungle while they're at it.
DVD player/recorder? On yer Mac.
CD player/recorder? On your Mac.
Local streaming via QT; non-local streaming via IP-over-Firewire & QT.
Just hook up the Firewire, plug in your signal cables, power on, and run the controlling ('iHub') software & it just works.
But only on the Mac. At first.
Eventually? iMovie video store - $10 per movie in a capturable MPEG-4 stream. Disney/Pixar titles featured.
Only on the Mac. At first.
World conquest by QT/MP4, one living room at a time.
Oh, one more thing: the bluetooth remote lets you control everything with your Mac...from the couch.
Great stuff, but I would hate the winding Firewire cable from my couch to the TV set...
Originally posted by Capt. Obvious
OK, guys, the COMPUTER is the digital hub.
Yes, I agree it's the hub, but what you later describe is not a hub. You're describing a Media Center type of PC. It's the Swiss Army Ronco Miracle Do Everything Device that really doesn't do anything well at all.
TiVo has the most refined PVR experience. Let them have it.
Apple doesn't make the best home theater components. Let the industry leaders have that too.
By glomming everything into one package, you are paying for extras you don't need. Why get TWO Media Center PCs just so one person can work and one person can play? Would they both be hooked into the home theater set-up with an A/B switch type of deal? Of course not. Media Center PCs actually less of a hubbed network and more of a distributed network. You end up getting a whole bunch of redundant components.
Let the CE guys catch up. They'll add RJ45 and FireWire on the back of their components. They'll add Zeroconf support. It'll all be good. Just don't get wrapped up in the HTPC/Media Center nonsense.
Pic:
Originally posted by Eugene
Yes, I agree it's the hub, but what you later describe is not a hub. You're describing a Media Center type of PC. It's the Swiss Army Ronco Miracle Do Everything Device that really doesn't do anything well at all.
Interesting take on things.
'The computer is the hub' means that the computer is both central and dominant; it does NOT mean that the hub is a special kind of computer.
TiVo has the most refined PVR experience. Let them have it.
Apple doesn't make the best home theater components. Let the industry leaders have that too.
By glomming everything into one package, you are paying for extras you don't need. Why get TWO Media Center PCs just so one person can work and one person can play?
Let the CE guys catch up.[/B]
Actually, I was describing the PMG4 sitting next to me, hooked up to a computer-controlled switching A/V interconnect box w/ capture & encode/decode capabilities & limited storage. Point being, w/ one of these boxes and a Mac, you can pump iTunes out to the living-room stereo or use QT to pipe video files or DVDs to the TV, or capture incoming video & either encode & store (in the box), encode (in the box) & import (to the Mac), or import and let your Mac handle the encoding.
No idea *what* you were describing.
Originally posted by Capt. Obvious
OK, guys, the COMPUTER is the digital hub.
This is what I'm saying, but the computer doesn't want to live near the TV and people are wiring houses with Ethernet, not FireWire (or they are going wireless). The TV somehow needs to connect to the home network, so some kind of a gadget must live with the TV but it needn't be very large. In fact, with newer TVs, you might even avoid having a processor if the TV can decode an HDTV data stream itself -- then the box is really just an Ethernet adapter, plus some kind of a "channel" selector that lets you choose which recorded program to pull off the MacOS X streaming video server.
Wireless is feasible with this as well -- a DVD data stream is only about 1.5 MB/sec (maximum), which is less than 15 Mbit/sec... well within the capabilities of 802.11b/g.
I would buy three of these devices in a second if Apple shipped them, and then a DVR product for my PowerMac to go with it. Then I'd upgrade my PowerMac to one of those shiny new 3 GHz dual G5s so that I wouldn't notice when the family was watching recorded TV while I was playing games.
Originally posted by HOM
too drunk post again later
Too busy watching football? Being from Wisconsin was glad to see GB pull out the win, but too drunk to post? Why even post then?
Originally posted by Rhumgod
Too busy watching football? Being from Wisconsin was glad to see GB pull out the win, but too drunk to post? Why even post then?
YES! There is some magicly spiritual thing going down in Lambau and its amazing. GO PACK!
Originally posted by eddively
YES! There is some magicly spiritual thing going down in Lambau and its amazing. GO PACK!
If it weren't for the McCown to Poole TD, we wouldn't be visiting Philly next week. Sorry to see it was against the Vikes.
Originally posted by Rhumgod
If it weren't for the McCown to Poole TD, we wouldn't be visiting Philly next week. Sorry to see it was against the Vikes.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
McNabb better start getting ready...i think its time to fill the city of brotherly love with some good ol' cheese curds.
Originally posted by Capt. Obvious
Actually, I was describing the PMG4 sitting next to me, hooked up to a computer-controlled switching A/V interconnect box w/ capture & encode/decode capabilities & limited storage. Point being, w/ one of these boxes and a Mac, you can pump iTunes out to the living-room stereo or use QT to pipe video files or DVDs to the TV, or capture incoming video & either encode & store (in the box), encode (in the box) & import (to the Mac), or import and let your Mac handle the encoding.
The only component that should be between you computer and your A/V components is the network, whether using TCP/IP and UTP like Cat6 or possibly FireWire. The Mac shouldn't be much more than a piece of network storage. It should only serve up the files to be accessed instead of decoding them. There shouldn't be an intermediate Apple Media Controller in all this. It's unnecessary and confusing. We were supposed to believe the Mac was the digital hub, not some faceless set-top box.
Your Mac serves the files. Your stereo processes MP3, AAC, Ogg Vorbis, whatever. Your video tuner/PVR processes HDTV, MPEG-4, QuickTime, etc.
Apple definitely wants to stay out of the STB market, IMO. Between giants like TiVo, cable companies and DSS providers, there's really no room to join in.
Originally posted by Eugene
The only component that should be between you computer and your A/V components is the network, whether using TCP/IP and UTP like Cat6 or possibly FireWire. The Mac shouldn't be much more than a piece of network storage. It should only serve up the files to be accessed instead of decoding them. There shouldn't be an intermediate Apple Media Controller in all this. It's unnecessary and confusing. Were were supposed to believe the Mac was the digital hub, not tome faceless set-top box.
Your Mac serves the files. Your stereo processes MP3, AAC, Ogg Vorbis, whatever. Your video tuner/PVR processes HDTV, MPEG-4, QuickTime, etc.
Apple definitely wants to stay out of the STB market, IMO. Between giants like TiVo, cable companies and DSS providers, there's really no room to join in.
Couldn't have said it myself.