New leadership

Posted:
in General Discussion edited January 2014
After reading the post about Apple and the rest of the world, I feel the biggest obstacle holding apple back from growth is Steve Jobs himself. I think its time for new leadership. Jobs has done an incredible job of saving apple from oblivion. And his accomplishments are numerous.



But the area that apple has ignored is growth. 2% is nothing to be proud of. With Jobs at the helm, apple has refused to compete in non-US markets, priced themselves rediculously out of the competition, allowed its rivals to exploit its innovations without putting up a fight.



Ask any non-US mac user whether apple does any marketing in their country. No. Apple will find itself an US only company.



What more can be said about pricing. Apple's latest blunder is the $249 mini pod. Should be $150. Aren't these supposed to compete with the flash players. Why spend all that r&d on the mini when for $50 more you can get the 15 gb ipod. Where's the logic here.



Apple gave away its technological lead during the os wars without putting up much of a fight. Oh I forgot. They sued. Today itunes is the dominate player in digital music, but for how long. Will this be a repeat of the os war.



Apple's mission statement reads something like this. "Apple will produce insanely expensive products and allow its rivals to exploit and market its innovations to the masses. " Apple has in essence become the r&d department of silicon valley.



Jobs has stressed innovation as the key to success. Innovation alone does not sell itself. Jobs/Apple has failed to get its message to the massess. Jobs will never allow apple to be competitive or even cheap. Apple's competitive posture is like the geeky kid who's always bullied by the jocks.



In order for apple to grow, they need a new leader who understands competition, marketing, and will play by the same rules as their rivals. Jobs rescued apple, but apple needs a new leader for a new era. Apple put training wheels on when Jobs returned. Its time for the child to grow up.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 54
    crusadercrusader Posts: 1,129member
    I don't think Apple needs a change yet. Steve is a wonder worker, and despite the Mini-iPod pricing, I'm willing to wait it out and see how the market reacts too it. I do think however, that Apple's hand was forced by many analysts predicting a product that they had planed to release later in the month. Mini-iPods may see a price reduction yet. My first reaction when it was announced that the "iPod" was a MP3 player was "so what? Who need another MP3 player?" Then I saw it for myself.



    The problem with Jobs is that we never know the whole story, or what the heck Apple has up it's collective sleeve. Tying Jobs to Apple's screwups in the OS war is misleading. Apple was a different company then, and it appears with the HP licensing that they are learning from the error of their ways. Apple has also embraced Open-source to some extent, ensuring that some of the software will survive long after Apple dies.



    I don't think Apple should make "Computers for the masses." They should continue what they are doing right now: Making the Mac the best platform choice for digital content creation. Who else makes such a wide variety of content creation tools? The best part is when they take the high-end pro applications and simplify it for everyday MUOTS(Mac Users On The Street) to use. I think Apple can have 7-8 percent of the market in the coming years, mainly due to the G5, 980, and the associated technologies which will keep the platform strong and competitive. Apple Changes the friggin world. Would I sacrifice that for marketshare? Never. Not everything is about share price.
  • Reply 2 of 54
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kung Fu Guy

    After reading the post about Apple and the rest of the world, I feel the biggest obstacle holding apple back from growth is Steve Jobs himself. I think its time for new leadership. Jobs has done an incredible job of saving apple from oblivion. And his accomplishments are numerous.



    Apple has in essence become the r&d department of silicon valley.



    Jobs has stressed innovation as the key to success.



    In order for apple to grow, they need a new leader who understands competition, marketing, and will play by the same rules as their rivals. Jobs rescued apple, but apple needs a new leader for a new era. Apple put training wheels on when Jobs returned. Its time for the child to grow up.




    hmmmm.... let's project what others might do for Apple



    Sculley, who was supposed to know marketing from Pepsi?

    Amelio, who was supposed to know competition from IBM?

    Gassee, who was supposed to know international?



    Jobs has more upside than them other three combined.



    Replacing Steve would be the stupidest thing Apple could do.

    Last time they bumped him out of Infinite Loop the vultures circled...

    The Return of Steve speaks for itself... (what training wheels?)



    A Mac user must feel the RDF flowing through them, young Jedi.
  • Reply 3 of 54
    amorphamorph Posts: 7,112member
    Sorry, no. Jobs stays.



    Apple's international presence is sad. I'll grant that. But their international market share is up since Steve's return.



    If you don't see that Apple is doing everything they can think of to boost the Mac's market share, you're not looking very hard. The Mac is up against some powerful network effects and a great deal of inertia and lack of knowledge. There is no magic bullet, only a fleet of compelling products, a lot of effort, and a lot of time.



    As for compelling products, look back at 2003 and tell me the last time you ever saw Apple post a year like that. You can go all the way back to 1976 if you want to.



    As for the iPod mini, it's not a cheap iPod. That's a fiction of the rumor sites. It's a small iPod. In tech, miniaturization usually commands a price premium, not a discount. At any rate, it's not competing with players $100 less than it is. It's competing with players that are priced within $50, and it looks awfully good there. The iPod mini will fly off the shelves. It's an accessory, not a commodity, so the rules that govern commodity pricing don't apply.



    As for the iPod, a recent article in (I believe) a San Diego paper revealed the interesting data point that consumers are now basing computer purchase decisions on accessories rather than the other way around. They want something that works with the accessories they have, or want to have. With the Mac's compatibility, and its integration with one of the hottest accessories on the market (iPod), this change in habits should play right into Apple's hands. Time will tell.



    I've been watching Apple for over two decades. Even when they sold more, even when they had more market share, they never executed like they're executing now. They have a lot of obstacles to overcome, but I can't think of anyone better to get them past those obstacles than the current executive team. And I say that as someone who wished Jobs good riddance the first time.
  • Reply 4 of 54
    ipeonipeon Posts: 1,122member
    Apple is doing just fine considering it's up against an ignorant monopolistic PC world. Matter of fact, it's amazing that Apple pulls it off year after year. It's not Steve Jobs you should be pointing the gun to. Steve Jobs has done what none have done nor ever could. You should be thanking him for that PC you are using might not have become what it has without Apple and Steve Jobs.
  • Reply 5 of 54
    Steve stays...
  • Reply 6 of 54
    dmband0026dmband0026 Posts: 2,345member
    No way...Steve has to stay. He started the company, he saved the company. So what if Apple is now R&D for silicon valley? They have been from the beginning. Market share isn't an easy thing to get, and now Apple has their foot back in the door with the iPod, things are looking up. Steve may have hurt the company in the past, but what CEO/president of a company hasn't made a mistake or two? Like others have said, computers are the way they are today because of Apple, and Apple is the way it is due in a very large part to Steve. All things considered, Apple is kicking butt right now, and it only gets better from here.
  • Reply 7 of 54
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kung Fu Guy

    But the area that apple has ignored is growth. 2% is nothing to be proud of. With Jobs at the helm, apple has refused to compete in non-US markets, priced themselves rediculously out of the competition, allowed its rivals to exploit its innovations without putting up a fight.





    Do you really think Apple can compete with Dell on equal footing? Dell can offer a complete system for $499 and up. Apple can't compete on price-- period.



    This is could really end up being a super long market dissertation, but the reality is Apple is at less than 5% market share, the only card they hold in the so-called "innovation" card. They have a long way to go before they can increase their share, and the only way to do it is slowly, and by gaining mind-share first.



    Apple has to remain profitable to fund their market share fight. Remember when the original 5GB iPod was "too expensive?" People bought it, because that's what the market will bear. We'll see how the iPod mini works out, but first and foremost, Apple has to keep making profits.
  • Reply 8 of 54
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kung Fu Guy

    After reading the post about Apple and the rest of the world, I feel the biggest obstacle holding apple back from growth is Steve Jobs himself. I think its time for new leadership. Jobs has done an incredible job of saving apple from oblivion. And his accomplishments are numerous.



    But the area that apple has ignored is growth. 2% is nothing to be proud of. With Jobs at the helm, apple has refused to compete in non-US markets, priced themselves rediculously out of the competition, allowed its rivals to exploit its innovations without putting up a fight.



    Ask any non-US mac user whether apple does any marketing in their country. No. Apple will find itself an US only company.



    What more can be said about pricing. Apple's latest blunder is the $249 mini pod. Should be $150. Aren't these supposed to compete with the flash players. Why spend all that r&d on the mini when for $50 more you can get the 15 gb ipod. Where's the logic here.



    Apple gave away its technological lead during the os wars without putting up much of a fight. Oh I forgot. They sued. Today itunes is the dominate player in digital music, but for how long. Will this be a repeat of the os war.



    Apple's mission statement reads something like this. "Apple will produce insanely expensive products and allow its rivals to exploit and market its innovations to the masses. " Apple has in essence become the r&d department of silicon valley.



    Jobs has stressed innovation as the key to success. Innovation alone does not sell itself. Jobs/Apple has failed to get its message to the massess. Jobs will never allow apple to be competitive or even cheap. Apple's competitive posture is like the geeky kid who's always bullied by the jocks.



    In order for apple to grow, they need a new leader who understands competition, marketing, and will play by the same rules as their rivals. Jobs rescued apple, but apple needs a new leader for a new era. Apple put training wheels on when Jobs returned. Its time for the child to grow up.




    Nope, you are 100% wrong, now go back to canada and do some kung fu.
  • Reply 9 of 54
    matsumatsu Posts: 6,558member
    iDunno, Apple would be substantially weaker without Jobs, and it'll be a sad day for them if one day he finally loses interest.



    I saw that iLife demo and thought, wow, here's a guy who cares about the way things work. Not compatibility or protocols or any technical jargon like that, but the experience, the pure craftsmanship of making fine tools.



    That's the only real advantage Apple has -- it certainly isn't marketshare or price -- and if they lose it, they'll probably lose the rest of their marketshare.











    . . .







    PS, the Pro gear -- Xserve, RAID, towers -- is all priced right. The iPod price is right-on too. They just need to bring the consumer gear up to snuff, fix the bloody iMac, get a headless consumer machine with CPU/GPU/internal drive upgradability, and enable spanning on iBooks. Apple is a hell of a lot closer than they've ever been, and if the US dollar can continue to weaken, international prices may finally come into line.



    MArket share is a mess and Apple needs to fix it, but they won't come any closer just by swapping out Jobs. They know what they need to do, just have to do it.
  • Reply 10 of 54
    buonrottobuonrotto Posts: 6,368member
    I think given recent developments, how Apple is playing the music market, their direction with OS X, their relatively decent financials in a very bad economy, I think Jobs has proven he knows how to get Apple on track, and that he should stay to see this thing through. I think it's pretty obvious that Jobs is concerned with stabilizing and growing Apple's markets in the US firat and foremost, and that the international customers, with the posible exception of Japanese customers, have been treated as second class citizens. I'm hoping that will eventiually change as Apple's position in US markets is firmed up and grows, but I think the process needs to continue.
  • Reply 11 of 54
    I think Amorph is correct - Apple is doing everything it can to gain mindshare.



    What if the HP deal is the first sign of other things to come? Suppose Apple offers HP a basic PC box design which HP can then customise similar to the iPod deal? Apple will still control the widget by using their own motherboards. Drivers should not be a problem so the user experience should be good.



    This way they could attack a market segment at the lower (not bottom) end whilst keeping their own products as premium ones. This would be a new styleof licensing which they could extend to a select few others who inhabit different market sectors that Apple cannot reach.



    Provided they do it right and do not cannibalise sales of their own products it could be a winner. Do the same thing with IBM and they open up new markets for Apple products. HP/IBM powered by MacOSX?
  • Reply 12 of 54
    pscatespscates Posts: 5,847member
    I think Jobs kinda IS Apple. He can't go. Having said that, however, I think there are TONS of things they could do much better on the "getting the word out to the masses" front.



    I guess if most of you think bus stop posters and the occasional dancing silhouette commercial are enough - and speak to the whole Apple experience and what they offer in hardware, software, OS, etc. - than who am I to argue.







    We'll just continue to let people figure shit out on their own, with no prodding or direction. With any luck, we'll hit 4% in a couple of years.
  • Reply 13 of 54
    amorphamorph Posts: 7,112member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Matsu

    I saw that iLife demo and thought, wow, here's a guy who cares about the way things work. Not compatibility or protocols or any technical jargon like that, but the experience, the pure craftsmanship of making fine tools.



    But at the same time, the guys he has working on those tools do care about compatibility and protocols. This is one of the biggest changes at Apple, historically, and one of the most welcome.
  • Reply 14 of 54
    pscatespscates Posts: 5,847member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by segovius Personally I don't care about this market share stuff



    Well, I'M not thinking of it from simply a business-oriented, "marketshare" standpoint either. I don't even know about all that stuff and I'm no financial/economic/stock monkey.



    I simply look at it from a "people, there's a better, easier way...come on!" perspective.



    All my friends and family members who are using PCs and are so unhappy with the experience and simply not able to do what they want. Not everyone is a creative or technical genius or has the savvy to figure out complex photo or video apps. But, they're also simply unaware that there is a valid, "right up their alley" alternative out there, just waiting for them.



    I don't want to see Apple's "marketshare" increase just for bragging rights, high fives and Wall Street performance.



    I want to see more people using Macs, OS X and the iApps because I think - no, I KNOW - they'd instantly get more use and satisfaction from the $599 they just dropped on a digital camcorder...and are STILL producing unedited, boring and completely unwatchable shit because whatever half-ass digital video app they bought at Best Buy or wherever isn't 1/20th as slick, intuitive and nice as iMovie. And that goes for the other iApps too.



    In the keynote, Jobs added up what it would take to put together something comparable to iLife 04 on the PC side. It was over $300 AND were all different products, certainly not built to work seamlessly and easily together.



    It's totally depressing that the masses aren't more aware of this stuff. I think, given a fair, honest shot and if you could gather a couple thousand of them up and sit them in an auditorium and have someone demo OS X, the iApps, etc. to them, quite a few would probably drive home and chuck their current systems and find the nearest Apple store.



    ESPECIALLY now, with digital music, photos and video being all the rage and so many families owning cameras, camcorders, nice inkjets, broadband connections, nice CD collections, etc.



    What's with this idiotic embrace of some sort of aloof, snob appeal many here seem to prefer?



    "Oh, we use Macs...it's a bit of a closed, 'you simply don't get it' clique...Apple shouldn't lower themselves to reach out to the masses..."







    The "masses" outnumber the geeks, Spec Whores, graphics professionals, video hounds, animators, stylemongers, gamers, coders, hackers, know-it-alls, Apple snobs, high-end web jocks, Unix types, developers, etc. by about a gazillion-to-one.



    Apple SHOULD be kissing the collective butt of "the masses". Okay, not kissing the butt, but certainly making people who aren't current Mac users, rumor site watchers and Apple loyalists aware that there IS indeed something else out there besides Windows, Dell and [fill in the blank with a cheesy, low-rent PC digital media app of your choice].







    Hey, Apple THEMSELVES (not me, not Matsu, etc.) routinely speak about marketshare, people switching, OS X migration, trumping the PC side in innovation, etc. But yet, they turn around and routinely do very little (or nothing at all) to back it up. Other than, yes, some dancing commercials and bus stop posters and whatnot. But certainly not much touting the OS (which is, as anyone knows, THE reason to own a Mac), the iApps (most widespread, mainstream appeal going), their hardware.



    If you landed here from Mars, you might get the impression that all Apple does is make an iPod and sell music online. Is that REALLY enough? Is that going to be their sole, widespread bread-and-butter? I'd think that now that iTunes, the iTMS and the iPod are are Windows now, Apple would really go all out to back up that "trojan horse" with marketing that, in a nutshell, says "hey, you guys are just experiencing a small taste of it. If you think THAT'S cool and well-implemented and a quality product, take a look at...".



    Are they just going to throw iTunes and some iPods at the other side and say "good work...our job here is done. That's good enough..."?



  • Reply 15 of 54
    amorphamorph Posts: 7,112member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by pscates

    What's with this idiotic embrace of some sort of aloof, snob appeal many here seem to prefer?



    "Oh, we use Macs...it's a bit of a closed, 'you simply don't get it' clique...Apple shouldn't lower themselves to reach out to the masses..."









    This is a very good point. The Macintosh is "the computer for the rest of us." The whole point is that the complexity of the alternatives creates an elite, and that complexity is artificial.



    Macs should be everywhere. Where they aren't, there should be immense pressure on the alternatives to take up the same project. If everyone will have to use computers, anyone should be able to use them.
  • Reply 16 of 54
    So are you saying growth is not important and Jobs is not the impediment to growth. Are you satisfied with the status quo as it is now. I don't understand why there is hostility towards growth and marketshare. The "we're better than them, they don't know better, and we don't need them" attitude really irks me. What ever happed to the "computer for the rest of us." We've become this little elite clique.



    During Jobs reign, marketshare has dwindled. Even Jobs' baby, the vaunted CRT imac could not reverse the trend. Apple commands a lot of mindshare. But award winning commerials and marketing campaigns do not translate into sales.



    Jobs is great in crisis mode. But apple is no longer in a death spiral. I'll admit Jobs is Apple. He rescued apple. But he's had his chance. We don't need a prima donna ceo. We don't need vanity projects like the cube or the lcd imac. Apple needs a sales and marketing guru.



    I guess what most people fear is Apple will no longer be Apple. No longer this exclusive cult club. No longer special.



    Are you satisfied with:

    Paying high prices

    Less choice for software and peripherals

    Marginalized by developers treating the mac as an after thought

    Poor retail presence or no presence at all



    Jobs/Apple has refused to play by the same rules as its rivals and refuses to compete for its rightful slice of the pie.



    Quote:

    A Mac user must feel the RDF flowing through them, young Jedi.



    Jobs' jedi mind tricks don't work here.
  • Reply 17 of 54
    powerdocpowerdoc Posts: 8,123member
    The answer to your question about marketshare will come with the new imac G5.



    In order to be competitive, Apple need a good ship. Finally they have it , it's the PPC 970.

    We will see if Apple want to win marketshare by having more competitive prices.

    The entry level I mac G5 shoud be priced at 1200 $. If this is the case, they will gain marketshare. Otherwise the situation will be unchanged.



    If in the car market, we see the examples of prestigious car companies, nearly all of them have product cheaper versions of their cars (porsche, mercedes, BMW, jaguar ...). I think it's a good example for Apple. But cheap means real apple product and not a false one like the mercedes class A (who do not follow the usuals standarts of qualitie of this companie).
  • Reply 18 of 54
    matsumatsu Posts: 6,558member
    The mistake here is in the assumption that ditching Jobs would result in an improvement either for us as customers or for Apple's fortunes.



    No one wants to see cheaper macs more than I do, or advertising that grabs people by the collar and says, "look you idiot, go buy this, it's good." I think they should get a really nice consumer grade system, build a half-hour info-mercial around it, and start hocking those things around the US/Canada.



    Whatever, the guy is a natural showman, charismatic, etc etc... but that's really not his ultimate value. You may not agree with where Apple is going or the speed with which they're doing it, but at least Jobs knows where he's going. Direction. You can't underestimate that. You turn Apple over to a board, spread it over a few different directions/philosophies, and they'll be dead faster than Dvorak can say "Windows"
  • Reply 19 of 54
    amorphamorph Posts: 7,112member
    Aha. I get it.



    This is a cloning / OS X on x86 rant in disguise.



    Sorry, not good for Apple. Not happening. If keeping Steve at Apple keeps Apple focused on their current course, that's the best thing that can happen.



    This isn't about keeping Apple an "elite" brand, although some people have resigned themselves to that. This is about making sure that the Mac remains the computer for the rest of us, and trying to get that computer into the hands of the rest of us.
  • Reply 20 of 54
    nebagakidnebagakid Posts: 2,692member
    What has kept Apple alive if it was not good Leadership? During the "dark" economic times, Apple continued to Innovate and have come out with some great products chiefly the iPod (along with the iTunes Music Store).







    1. Jobs is here to stay.

    2. Clones are not zombies.

    3. This is a no-compromising company.
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