. . . As for the connectors, I believe they will be inline with the PCI connectors, so each expansion slot will accomodate either a PCI express card or a PCI(X) card. This will obviously increase the cost of the board until the PCI connectors can be dropped, but not, I think, significantly.
michael
If you go to the link I provided in my earlier post, there are pictures of PCI Express connectors along side of standard PCI connectors on a motherboard. The Express 1X connectors are small, just one serial connection, but they take up space where one end of a PCI connector would sit. This fact, along with text, indicates that the expansion slots must be either PCI Express or Standard PCI/PCI-X. The slot will not accommodate both types of cards. The board shown had 2 Express and 4 PCI slots, plus an Express 16X connector for the video card.
It looks like PCI slot might be driven from a single (1X) Express serial line through some kind of bridge chip. Alternately, there could be a separate serial line and bridge for each PCI-X card, to keep performance up.
The only way I can see that a slot that would accept either type card is a bit of a kludge. The expansion slot bay could be made slightly taller. To add a PCI or PCI-X card, an adapter would be plugged into the PCI Express slot. It would contain a bridge chip and a PCI or PCI-X connector on top. Such a kludge would also have to accommodate the different height of the card's rear connector panel. Possibly a reversible rear plate, one position for higher-standing cards and the other for the lower-standing, PCI Express cards. That is all blue sky. The Wintel boxes look like they will go for some of each type card for now.
If you go to the link I provided in my earlier post, there are pictures of PCI Express connectors along side of standard PCI connectors on a motherboard. The Express 1X connectors are small, just one serial connection, but they take up space where one end of a PCI connector would sit. This fact, along with text, indicates that the expansion slots must be either PCI Express or Standard PCI/PCI-X. The slot will not accommodate both types of cards. The board shown had 2 Express and 4 PCI slots, plus an Express 16X connector for the video card.
It looks like PCI slot might be driven from a single (1X) Express serial line through some kind of bridge chip. Alternately, there could be a separate serial line and bridge for each PCI-X card, to keep performance up.
The only way I can see that a slot that would accept either type card is a bit of a kludge. The expansion slot bay could be made slightly taller. To add a PCI or PCI-X card, an adapter would be plugged into the PCI Express slot. It would contain a bridge chip and a PCI or PCI-X connector on top. Such a kludge would also have to accommodate the different height of the card's rear connector panel. Possibly a reversible rear plate, one position for higher-standing cards and the other for the lower-standing, PCI Express cards. That is all blue sky. The Wintel boxes look like they will go for some of each type card for now.
From your linked article:
Quote:
The current specifics allow for an additional header placed at the end of a standard PCI slot to support lower bandwidth (1-2 lane) PCI-Express devices, somewhat similar to the extra connector used for 66mhz PCI devices.
This is the most likely scenario for the first generation of PCI-Express motherboards based on upcoming chipsets such as Intel's Grantsdale-P and Alderwood. This feature combined with full software support will allow for a seamless integration with older PCI technology.
The current specifics allow for an additional header placed at the end of a standard PCI slot to support lower bandwidth (1-2 lane) PCI-Express devices, somewhat similar to the extra connector used for 66mhz PCI devices.
This is the most likely scenario for the first generation of PCI-Express motherboards based on upcoming chipsets such as Intel's Grantsdale-P and Alderwood. This feature combined with full software support will allow for a seamless integration with older PCI technology.
Thank you for pointing out something I skimmed over too quickly. It seems to say both connectors can coexist in one slot, and they sure could if there was an offset. The photos do not seem to show that however. On page four there is a photo of a graphics card, I believe, in a 16X PCI Express connector. Next are two empty 1X PCI Express slots, and then what appears to be some standard PCI connectors. The 1X PCI Express connectors are not offset from the standard connectors, either forward or to the rear. A 1X connector and standard PCI connector cannot be placed in a line, in the same slot space. This is also shown in the drawing further down the page.
If you can figure out how a card slot can support both types of cards, I'd like to see an explanation. The article is not clear about this, or possibly I am missing something obvious. I don't mind appearing stupid if I can learn how it works.
The biggest downside to it is I hear there is no backward compatibility with PCI-X, or PCI compliant cards. That would suck donkey spit.
Well, they will not work in the same slot, but the slots can coexist on the same MOBO, and no change will need to be made to drivers or OS for this addoption.
One should read the Three PDF's at this address listed under PCI Express Basics.
... I haven't looked at a new Wintel box lately, so I don't now how much they have completely switched over to USB even today.
Just assembled a brand-new Dell today. It still has PS/2 keyboard and mouse connectors, a parallel printer port, and a 9-pin serial port - just like a PS/2 model 50 from 1987. A PS/2 keyboard and mouse came with it. It has 6 USB ports, but nothing that comes with the computer makes use of them.
It was only a couple of years ago that PCs stopped including ISA slots. Don't expect PCs to be innovation leaders.
expect hybrid boards that sync all forms of all input.. there is also discussion that hyperthreading may be better in some applications than express.. video however will adopt express and abandon pci old all together... mac will conform and i bet even lead in the field..they have traditionally been right on target in adopting everything thats new. minor revisions to mobo form factor would be required.. but nothing that couldnt be taken care of along with a speed bump and whatever revision that would be on tap at the given time..
expect hybrid boards that sync all forms of all input.. there is also discussion that hyperthreading may be better in some applications than express.. video however will adopt express and abandon pci old all together... mac will conform and i bet even lead in the field..they have traditionally been right on target in adopting everything thats new. minor revisions to mobo form factor would be required.. but nothing that couldnt be taken care of along with a speed bump and whatever revision that would be on tap at the given time..
Is not Hyperthreading an Intel processor technology?
Is not Hyperthreading an Intel processor technology?
I think he meant HyperTransport.
Hyperthreading is Intel's name for simultaneous multithreading. Intel doesn't have a lock on the technology, nor even an especially good implementation (yet).
HyperTransport and PCI Express are not at all dissimilar, but IIRC although HT can be used as an external bus over a wire, it's mostly intended to connect parts together on a board. PCI Express attempts to do that and also to connect PCI cards to that board. They're both high-speed packet-based protocols, so its' possible to have a HyperTransport-based board with PCI Express slots. I believe that was his point.
Who else can see Apple implementing this first? I think I remember reading something about a big colaboration of companies working on PCI-Express. This would go good with the huge bandwidth of the G5 architecture. I dont forsee Apple adding this until their next motherboard revision. Probably 2005... It does look to be a promising technology though. I especially like the 16X PCI-Express feature for the video cards. Bi-directional communications between the CPU and GPU would be nice. Just my thoughts mind you. 8)
Is not Hyperthreading an Intel processor technology?
I think that the word Hyperthreading is the property of Microsoft. But the multithreading is an old concept belonging to no one.
I read somewhere, that most of the news concepts of the lattest chips where the result of scientifical research made years and years ago. What is new is the implementation of this research.
edit : just discover that Amorph already answered this question
Comments
Originally posted by mmicist
. . . As for the connectors, I believe they will be inline with the PCI connectors, so each expansion slot will accomodate either a PCI express card or a PCI(X) card. This will obviously increase the cost of the board until the PCI connectors can be dropped, but not, I think, significantly.
michael
If you go to the link I provided in my earlier post, there are pictures of PCI Express connectors along side of standard PCI connectors on a motherboard. The Express 1X connectors are small, just one serial connection, but they take up space where one end of a PCI connector would sit. This fact, along with text, indicates that the expansion slots must be either PCI Express or Standard PCI/PCI-X. The slot will not accommodate both types of cards. The board shown had 2 Express and 4 PCI slots, plus an Express 16X connector for the video card.
It looks like PCI slot might be driven from a single (1X) Express serial line through some kind of bridge chip. Alternately, there could be a separate serial line and bridge for each PCI-X card, to keep performance up.
The only way I can see that a slot that would accept either type card is a bit of a kludge. The expansion slot bay could be made slightly taller. To add a PCI or PCI-X card, an adapter would be plugged into the PCI Express slot. It would contain a bridge chip and a PCI or PCI-X connector on top. Such a kludge would also have to accommodate the different height of the card's rear connector panel. Possibly a reversible rear plate, one position for higher-standing cards and the other for the lower-standing, PCI Express cards. That is all blue sky. The Wintel boxes look like they will go for some of each type card for now.
Here is a link to an article on how PCI Express and HyperTransport will copliment each other.
http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20021023S0011
Originally posted by snoopy
If you go to the link I provided in my earlier post, there are pictures of PCI Express connectors along side of standard PCI connectors on a motherboard. The Express 1X connectors are small, just one serial connection, but they take up space where one end of a PCI connector would sit. This fact, along with text, indicates that the expansion slots must be either PCI Express or Standard PCI/PCI-X. The slot will not accommodate both types of cards. The board shown had 2 Express and 4 PCI slots, plus an Express 16X connector for the video card.
It looks like PCI slot might be driven from a single (1X) Express serial line through some kind of bridge chip. Alternately, there could be a separate serial line and bridge for each PCI-X card, to keep performance up.
The only way I can see that a slot that would accept either type card is a bit of a kludge. The expansion slot bay could be made slightly taller. To add a PCI or PCI-X card, an adapter would be plugged into the PCI Express slot. It would contain a bridge chip and a PCI or PCI-X connector on top. Such a kludge would also have to accommodate the different height of the card's rear connector panel. Possibly a reversible rear plate, one position for higher-standing cards and the other for the lower-standing, PCI Express cards. That is all blue sky. The Wintel boxes look like they will go for some of each type card for now.
From your linked article:
The current specifics allow for an additional header placed at the end of a standard PCI slot to support lower bandwidth (1-2 lane) PCI-Express devices, somewhat similar to the extra connector used for 66mhz PCI devices.
This is the most likely scenario for the first generation of PCI-Express motherboards based on upcoming chipsets such as Intel's Grantsdale-P and Alderwood. This feature combined with full software support will allow for a seamless integration with older PCI technology.
michael
Originally posted by mmicist
From your linked article:
The current specifics allow for an additional header placed at the end of a standard PCI slot to support lower bandwidth (1-2 lane) PCI-Express devices, somewhat similar to the extra connector used for 66mhz PCI devices.
This is the most likely scenario for the first generation of PCI-Express motherboards based on upcoming chipsets such as Intel's Grantsdale-P and Alderwood. This feature combined with full software support will allow for a seamless integration with older PCI technology.
Thank you for pointing out something I skimmed over too quickly. It seems to say both connectors can coexist in one slot, and they sure could if there was an offset. The photos do not seem to show that however. On page four there is a photo of a graphics card, I believe, in a 16X PCI Express connector. Next are two empty 1X PCI Express slots, and then what appears to be some standard PCI connectors. The 1X PCI Express connectors are not offset from the standard connectors, either forward or to the rear. A 1X connector and standard PCI connector cannot be placed in a line, in the same slot space. This is also shown in the drawing further down the page.
If you can figure out how a card slot can support both types of cards, I'd like to see an explanation. The article is not clear about this, or possibly I am missing something obvious. I don't mind appearing stupid if I can learn how it works.
Originally posted by onlooker
The biggest downside to it is I hear there is no backward compatibility with PCI-X, or PCI compliant cards. That would suck donkey spit.
Well, they will not work in the same slot, but the slots can coexist on the same MOBO, and no change will need to be made to drivers or OS for this addoption.
One should read the Three PDF's at this address listed under PCI Express Basics.
http://www.intel.com/technology/pciexpress/devnet/
Originally posted by snoopy
... I haven't looked at a new Wintel box lately, so I don't now how much they have completely switched over to USB even today.
Just assembled a brand-new Dell today. It still has PS/2 keyboard and mouse connectors, a parallel printer port, and a 9-pin serial port - just like a PS/2 model 50 from 1987. A PS/2 keyboard and mouse came with it. It has 6 USB ports, but nothing that comes with the computer makes use of them.
It was only a couple of years ago that PCs stopped including ISA slots. Don't expect PCs to be innovation leaders.
Originally posted by kid k
expect hybrid boards that sync all forms of all input.. there is also discussion that hyperthreading may be better in some applications than express.. video however will adopt express and abandon pci old all together... mac will conform and i bet even lead in the field..they have traditionally been right on target in adopting everything thats new. minor revisions to mobo form factor would be required.. but nothing that couldnt be taken care of along with a speed bump and whatever revision that would be on tap at the given time..
Is not Hyperthreading an Intel processor technology?
Originally posted by oldmacfan
Is not Hyperthreading an Intel processor technology?
I think he meant HyperTransport.
Hyperthreading is Intel's name for simultaneous multithreading. Intel doesn't have a lock on the technology, nor even an especially good implementation (yet).
HyperTransport and PCI Express are not at all dissimilar, but IIRC although HT can be used as an external bus over a wire, it's mostly intended to connect parts together on a board. PCI Express attempts to do that and also to connect PCI cards to that board. They're both high-speed packet-based protocols, so its' possible to have a HyperTransport-based board with PCI Express slots. I believe that was his point.
Originally posted by oldmacfan
Is not Hyperthreading an Intel processor technology?
I think that the word Hyperthreading is the property of Microsoft. But the multithreading is an old concept belonging to no one.
I read somewhere, that most of the news concepts of the lattest chips where the result of scientifical research made years and years ago. What is new is the implementation of this research.
edit : just discover that Amorph already answered this question