You may be right. I just know that I like to have as few devices as possible. That said, I don't see why they could offer a STB with and without a hard disk.
I like the SAN portion of it, and have often wished I had a spare machine lying about with good networking, and huge disks just for such a use. Right now my BW G3 fills that niche in the household econetwork.
To me, an entertainment center/living room appliance should be as small, unobtrusive and *silent* as possible. The SAN doesn't need to be, which requires less overall engineering, hence (hopefully) a cheaper price. I see the two products as having somewhat conflicting constraints, and keeping them separate lets each do its dedicated job more cleanly, which generally results in a better product.
Honestly, the Cube was the best start at an STB platform I've seen yet - not the form factor, necessarily, but the basics of silent, small mobo, iApps (with sharing now), good networking, etc. Pare it down to the basics, add in a solid AV out board (composite, optical, etc), repackage it with a smallish HD, 512MB RAM, extremely limited internal expandability (it's 'not a computer'). Make profit.
I was thinking about using a Cube-ish design too, although it wouldn't have to be nearly as big.
It only needs a G4 processor (or low GHz G5, if it ends up cheaper/cooler/better), no optical drives, and even an HD is questionable, unless you need it for buffering streamed content from the networked Mac. Personally, though, I think that purely RAM-based buffering would be preferable, especially in the interest of keeping the thing small. You wouldn't even need a high-end video card for this thing... as long as it can pump out QuickTime video at DVD resolutions (forget HiDef for now), it's good enough.
Fanless cooling in a package like this would be a snap!
And as for upgrading? Forget it. Throw it right out the window! This is a consumer electronics device. How many TV sets or boomboxes give you extra RAM slots? If you really need to upgrade, you buy the latest model.
I was thinking about using a Cube-ish design too, although it wouldn't have to be nearly as big.
It only needs a G4 processor (or low GHz G5, if it ends up cheaper/cooler/better), no optical drives, and even an HD is questionable, unless you need it for buffering streamed content from the networked Mac. Personally, though, I think that purely RAM-based buffering would be preferable, especially in the interest of keeping the thing small. You wouldn't even need a high-end video card for this thing... as long as it can pump out QuickTime video at DVD resolutions (forget HiDef for now), it's good enough.
Fanless cooling in a package like this would be a snap!
And as for upgrading? Forget it. Throw it right out the window! This is a consumer electronics device. How many TV sets or boomboxes give you extra RAM slots? If you really need to upgrade, you buy the latest model.
I could live with that. Though I think HiDef is necessary. How many non-HDTV's are purchased by people who would use this sort of thing.
I could live with that. Though I think HiDef is necessary. How many non-HDTV's are purchased by people who would use this sort of thing.
Which "HiDef"? Over the air transmissions, Cable, or satelite? Also will it support standard analog OTA? The problem with adding a tuner in right now is that there are too many "standards". Also, as of today, HDTV (OTA) tunners are expensive (about $350 minimum the last I saw locally). Yet to add maximum functionality to the system you need a tuner for each broadcast standard that can be controlled by the computer to support recording of broadcast video. You also would need some form of "Legal" way to "rip" dvd's to HD to catalog in your video archive to be recalled whenever you want to view them.
The solution might be multiple devices.
One for each TV on the network that just recieves a stream from the central computer on the Hub. Very low cost, but useless on its own.
One that hooks up to the central computer via FW 800 which has one or more of a few different tuners built in. Depending on the tuner this could be very expensiv. Based on current products probably starting out at around $300 for standard analog TV, add an additional $300 for HDTV, Cable and satelit would probably fall somewhere in between.
I think the solution here is HDTV capable resolution on output, but no actual tuner. Heck, I wasn't envisioning even a cable tuner in this thing... that's what your cable box/satellite box/VCR/DVD player is for. This is just a streaming media receptor with video and audio out.
While Apple has the clear lead in digital music players, PC opponents have shown they are willing to take on Apple at its own game with their own music stores and players. And they're expanding the playing field into the living room with digital televisions and cameras.
Dell, Gateway, H-P and other PC makers can also combine their new consumer electronics products with Microsoft's new Windows XP Media Center operating system, which allows digital recording and playing of television shows. That puts those companies closer to developing an all-in-one computer-and-TV device that could marginalize Apple even further.
If Apple has similar plans for the Mac, it is keeping them tightly held as it always does.
While I don't agree with the idea that "an all-in-one computer-and-TV device" is what is needed by Apple, they must address the glaring lack of easy integration with the major pillar of multimedia in the home - TELEVISION - like it or not, in the consumer sphere TV is King for entertainment.
Audiophiles will spend thousands on their HiFi's. Prosumers will spend thousands on their home theaters. Geeks and Professionals will spend thousands on their computers.
Average Consumers will only spend hundreds in any one of these categories, but they will spend thousands to cover all three. There are many millions of them though, and as a target audience, they can not be ignored.
A slick, simple, silent (or nearly so) inexpensive (but feature and capacity upgradable) set top box (or cube, or sphere, or trapezoid) that offers interaction with your HiFi and TV is what's needed. I'm sure that Mr. Ives can come up with something, if Steve will let him.
While I agree that any set top box could be sold cheaply if it were simply a conduit between your existing Apple hardware and your television, I DO NOT think that would be Apple's solution. Elgato Systems has already done that: http://www.elgato.com/products/eyehome.html
The appeal of the iPod goes far beyond the 3%-5% marketshare. It is an independent consumer device that anyone with digital music can enjoy. If you have iTunes great, if you have a Mac, even more enjoyable. It is a Trojan horse type product in the sense that it penetrates deeper than the Mac, and illustrates Apple's design sensibility and legendary ease of use. It is an advertisement for the entire Apple product line.
I would have to assume that based on the iPod's success, further expansion into the consumer devices arena would take this cue and be somewhat independent. You may not need to have a mac. If you have Apple hardware in your house you would experience greater functionality, a .Mac account, better still.
I know Steve hates TV, but the digital hub is not in the office, it is in the living room. And one spoke so clearly missing from the complete "digital hub" strategy is the television. I can not possibly imagine that a rumored 30" cinema display is only for the very few, and the very weathy video editors out there. You can always buy another monitor if you need that much real estate right? It has got to be tied to a greater plan to take over the living room.
I think the solution here is HDTV capable resolution on output, but no actual tuner. Heck, I wasn't envisioning even a cable tuner in this thing... that's what your cable box/satellite box/VCR/DVD player is for. This is just a streaming media receptor with video and audio out.
Make it simple, but make it quality.
If you are going to make them worth while you need PVR functions built in somewhere. To do this you need software control of your TV tuner that is hooked up to the computer through analog or digital connections. Since Apple doesn't have control of the people making the tuners, and there are few if any today that can be controlled via some network connection, then Apple needs to have at least one appliance that has the tuner built in.
Average Consumers will only spend hundreds in any one of these categories, but they will spend thousands to cover all three. There are many millions of them though, and as a target audience, they can not be ignored.
What is more, the average consumer will replace most any component that is no longer under warranty if it goes out in their system rather than have it repaired.
Personally I would like to see a box that is easily expandable and has room for multiple large, cheap hard disks, and can act as a streaming file server across both Ethernet and wireless. For me this is a PowerMac and it doubles as my personal computer and development station, but for other people it might be a seperate device. Under or over the TV is not the best place for it to sit... high capacity cheap hard disks are big and noisy so why would you want to put one in the middle of your entertainment experience?! In case you hadn't noticed, the cost per megabyte of the small and quiet drives is sub-optimal. Add to that the need for multiple "nodes" in your home network (which might extend across the Internet while you're away from home) and it makes less sense to build it around a box sitting on top of your TV. Put the damn thing in a closet where it can double as a furnace.
Note that the current disk sizes in the PVRs are pretty anemic compared to what I expect to be the norm in the near future... we should be talking about terabytes, not gigabytes.
... Under or over the TV is not the best place for it to sit... Put the damn thing in a closet where it can double as a furnace... we should be talking about terabytes, not gigabytes.
Right, everyone on this board would love an xServe and xRaid tucked away in a soundproof closet, and we'd all be more than happy to drill holes in our walls to run fiber channel to our workstations and gigabit ethernet to our HDTV's and FireWire to our stereos.
Consumers wouldn't even consider such a set-up. They want something that they can put right on top of their component stack, or stand on a shelf next to the TV (cubic?). They want it to be easier to hook up than a TiVo, and easier to use than a light switch.
As far as noise, my Sony 2000 (TiVo) has a hard drive and a fan. It is always on. I have never heard it in 3 years of use.
[disclaimer: to much loud music. many hours in loud aircraft, and to many rounds fired from high powered weapons has degraded my ability to hear hard drive seeks and low speed fans so, YMMV]
If you are going to make them worth while you need PVR functions built in somewhere. To do this you need software control of your TV tuner that is hooked up to the computer through analog or digital connections. Since Apple doesn't have control of the people making the tuners, and there are few if any today that can be controlled via some network connection, then Apple needs to have at least one appliance that has the tuner built in.
I disagree. A PVR is a tuner-based system for capturing broadcast video.
An STB is an interconnect between your hosted media of various sorts and your home entertainment system.
Again, two different beasts.
Keep them separated.
And, I have this funny feeling Steverino agrees with me...
Do you have any other thoughts about where your competitors are taking their strategies? For example, Windows Media PCs are computers attached to TV sets.
Well, we've always been very clear on that. We don't think that televisions and personal computers are going to merge. We think basically you watch television to turn your brain off, and you work on your computer when you want to turn your brain on.
Are there some complementary aspects to it?
Well, they want to link sometimes. Like, when you make a movie, you burn a DVD and you take it to your DVD player. Someday that could happen over AirPort, so you don't have to burn a DVD -- you can just watch it right off your computer on your television set. But most of these products that have said, "Let's combine the television and the computer!? have failed. All of them have failed.
I don't understand why you'd want to mouse around on your TV set.
The problem is, when you're using your computer you're a foot away from it, you know? When you're using your television you want to be ten feet away from it. So they're really different animals.
Apple's thang has always been content *creation*, not content consumption. Expect that to continue.
And as long as that "thang" continues, we will forever be locked in our "niche" and suffer ever smaller market share in the computer Industry.
Let us not forget the lesson of the iPod, a media consumption device. What was it Steve said at Macworld about the iPod...? "It's nice to be better than 5% marketshare in something..." or something like that.
iLife let's anyone create. .Mac / Rendezvous, is intended to let anyone share. It is only natural for Apple to be looking for new ways to close the product loop and produce new means to consume.
My amazing, innovative, expensive and crazy integration theory:
1. Your computer is the organizer. Computers are great as organizers.
2. Your TV is the player. With the large screen, TVs are natural for viewing movies and photos.
3. The big, fat speaker setup your speaker setup has is great for playing music, and when playing music your TV let's you choose which song and playlist to play, and do other basic options (i.e. pause.) Next Track, Fast Forward, Rewind, Previous Track, and Pause are also offered on the audio system itself. Your computer plays the CDs if you want CDs.
Everything is streamed or sent over Ethernet using Rendezvous. The TV and the audio system have to be "smart," of course. An intelligent iPod dock for your music and photos (it would be a color iPod) also might factor in.
Existing apps are used for organizing photos and tunes, and a new app for organizing recorded TV shows and DVDs. You cannot organize your media on the TV, only play and choose what to play. The DVD playing app that now streams data to your TV is the same ol' DVD Player, now with an option to play on the TV. Once again, bookmarks and such are set on the computer; your TV only plays the DVD.
If you have a VHS player, you may record videotapes to the Mac, which are stored in the same app used to store DVDs and TV shows.
Right, everyone on this board would love an xServe and xRaid tucked away in a soundproof closet, and we'd all be more than happy to drill holes in our walls to run fiber channel to our workstations and gigabit ethernet to our HDTV's and FireWire to our stereos.
Gee, that's why I said it would support wireless as well. And you'd still have that settop box, except that it would be smaller and cheaper. Many homes these days have more than 1 TV so you want more than one of these boxes. As time goes on, however, more and more homes are built with some form of networking so hardwired will be an attractive option for many.
Comments
I like the SAN portion of it, and have often wished I had a spare machine lying about with good networking, and huge disks just for such a use. Right now my BW G3 fills that niche in the household econetwork.
To me, an entertainment center/living room appliance should be as small, unobtrusive and *silent* as possible. The SAN doesn't need to be, which requires less overall engineering, hence (hopefully) a cheaper price. I see the two products as having somewhat conflicting constraints, and keeping them separate lets each do its dedicated job more cleanly, which generally results in a better product.
Honestly, the Cube was the best start at an STB platform I've seen yet - not the form factor, necessarily, but the basics of silent, small mobo, iApps (with sharing now), good networking, etc. Pare it down to the basics, add in a solid AV out board (composite, optical, etc), repackage it with a smallish HD, 512MB RAM, extremely limited internal expandability (it's 'not a computer'). Make profit.
It only needs a G4 processor (or low GHz G5, if it ends up cheaper/cooler/better), no optical drives, and even an HD is questionable, unless you need it for buffering streamed content from the networked Mac. Personally, though, I think that purely RAM-based buffering would be preferable, especially in the interest of keeping the thing small. You wouldn't even need a high-end video card for this thing... as long as it can pump out QuickTime video at DVD resolutions (forget HiDef for now), it's good enough.
Fanless cooling in a package like this would be a snap!
And as for upgrading? Forget it. Throw it right out the window! This is a consumer electronics device. How many TV sets or boomboxes give you extra RAM slots? If you really need to upgrade, you buy the latest model.
Originally posted by TrevorD
I was thinking about using a Cube-ish design too, although it wouldn't have to be nearly as big.
It only needs a G4 processor (or low GHz G5, if it ends up cheaper/cooler/better), no optical drives, and even an HD is questionable, unless you need it for buffering streamed content from the networked Mac. Personally, though, I think that purely RAM-based buffering would be preferable, especially in the interest of keeping the thing small. You wouldn't even need a high-end video card for this thing... as long as it can pump out QuickTime video at DVD resolutions (forget HiDef for now), it's good enough.
Fanless cooling in a package like this would be a snap!
And as for upgrading? Forget it. Throw it right out the window! This is a consumer electronics device. How many TV sets or boomboxes give you extra RAM slots? If you really need to upgrade, you buy the latest model.
I could live with that. Though I think HiDef is necessary. How many non-HDTV's are purchased by people who would use this sort of thing.
Originally posted by Michael Wilkie
I could live with that. Though I think HiDef is necessary. How many non-HDTV's are purchased by people who would use this sort of thing.
Which "HiDef"? Over the air transmissions, Cable, or satelite? Also will it support standard analog OTA? The problem with adding a tuner in right now is that there are too many "standards". Also, as of today, HDTV (OTA) tunners are expensive (about $350 minimum the last I saw locally). Yet to add maximum functionality to the system you need a tuner for each broadcast standard that can be controlled by the computer to support recording of broadcast video. You also would need some form of "Legal" way to "rip" dvd's to HD to catalog in your video archive to be recalled whenever you want to view them.
The solution might be multiple devices.
Make it simple, but make it quality.
While Apple has the clear lead in digital music players, PC opponents have shown they are willing to take on Apple at its own game with their own music stores and players. And they're expanding the playing field into the living room with digital televisions and cameras.
Dell, Gateway, H-P and other PC makers can also combine their new consumer electronics products with Microsoft's new Windows XP Media Center operating system, which allows digital recording and playing of television shows. That puts those companies closer to developing an all-in-one computer-and-TV device that could marginalize Apple even further.
If Apple has similar plans for the Mac, it is keeping them tightly held as it always does.
While I don't agree with the idea that "an all-in-one computer-and-TV device" is what is needed by Apple, they must address the glaring lack of easy integration with the major pillar of multimedia in the home - TELEVISION - like it or not, in the consumer sphere TV is King for entertainment.
Audiophiles will spend thousands on their HiFi's. Prosumers will spend thousands on their home theaters. Geeks and Professionals will spend thousands on their computers.
Average Consumers will only spend hundreds in any one of these categories, but they will spend thousands to cover all three. There are many millions of them though, and as a target audience, they can not be ignored.
A slick, simple, silent (or nearly so) inexpensive (but feature and capacity upgradable) set top box (or cube, or sphere, or trapezoid) that offers interaction with your HiFi and TV is what's needed. I'm sure that Mr. Ives can come up with something, if Steve will let him.
The appeal of the iPod goes far beyond the 3%-5% marketshare. It is an independent consumer device that anyone with digital music can enjoy. If you have iTunes great, if you have a Mac, even more enjoyable. It is a Trojan horse type product in the sense that it penetrates deeper than the Mac, and illustrates Apple's design sensibility and legendary ease of use. It is an advertisement for the entire Apple product line.
I would have to assume that based on the iPod's success, further expansion into the consumer devices arena would take this cue and be somewhat independent. You may not need to have a mac. If you have Apple hardware in your house you would experience greater functionality, a .Mac account, better still.
I know Steve hates TV, but the digital hub is not in the office, it is in the living room. And one spoke so clearly missing from the complete "digital hub" strategy is the television. I can not possibly imagine that a rumored 30" cinema display is only for the very few, and the very weathy video editors out there. You can always buy another monitor if you need that much real estate right? It has got to be tied to a greater plan to take over the living room.
Originally posted by Kickaha
I think the solution here is HDTV capable resolution on output, but no actual tuner. Heck, I wasn't envisioning even a cable tuner in this thing... that's what your cable box/satellite box/VCR/DVD player is for. This is just a streaming media receptor with video and audio out.
Make it simple, but make it quality.
If you are going to make them worth while you need PVR functions built in somewhere. To do this you need software control of your TV tuner that is hooked up to the computer through analog or digital connections. Since Apple doesn't have control of the people making the tuners, and there are few if any today that can be controlled via some network connection, then Apple needs to have at least one appliance that has the tuner built in.
Originally posted by Aphelion
Average Consumers will only spend hundreds in any one of these categories, but they will spend thousands to cover all three. There are many millions of them though, and as a target audience, they can not be ignored.
What is more, the average consumer will replace most any component that is no longer under warranty if it goes out in their system rather than have it repaired.
Note that the current disk sizes in the PVRs are pretty anemic compared to what I expect to be the norm in the near future... we should be talking about terabytes, not gigabytes.
Originally posted by Programmer
... Under or over the TV is not the best place for it to sit... Put the damn thing in a closet where it can double as a furnace... we should be talking about terabytes, not gigabytes.
Right, everyone on this board would love an xServe and xRaid tucked away in a soundproof closet, and we'd all be more than happy to drill holes in our walls to run fiber channel to our workstations and gigabit ethernet to our HDTV's and FireWire to our stereos.
Consumers wouldn't even consider such a set-up. They want something that they can put right on top of their component stack, or stand on a shelf next to the TV (cubic?). They want it to be easier to hook up than a TiVo, and easier to use than a light switch.
As far as noise, my Sony 2000 (TiVo) has a hard drive and a fan. It is always on. I have never heard it in 3 years of use.
[disclaimer: to much loud music. many hours in loud aircraft, and to many rounds fired from high powered weapons has degraded my ability to hear hard drive seeks and low speed fans so, YMMV]
Originally posted by @homenow
If you are going to make them worth while you need PVR functions built in somewhere. To do this you need software control of your TV tuner that is hooked up to the computer through analog or digital connections. Since Apple doesn't have control of the people making the tuners, and there are few if any today that can be controlled via some network connection, then Apple needs to have at least one appliance that has the tuner built in.
I disagree. A PVR is a tuner-based system for capturing broadcast video.
An STB is an interconnect between your hosted media of various sorts and your home entertainment system.
Again, two different beasts.
Keep them separated.
And, I have this funny feeling Steverino agrees with me...
MacWorld interview
Do you have any other thoughts about where your competitors are taking their strategies? For example, Windows Media PCs are computers attached to TV sets.
Well, we've always been very clear on that. We don't think that televisions and personal computers are going to merge. We think basically you watch television to turn your brain off, and you work on your computer when you want to turn your brain on.
Are there some complementary aspects to it?
Well, they want to link sometimes. Like, when you make a movie, you burn a DVD and you take it to your DVD player. Someday that could happen over AirPort, so you don't have to burn a DVD -- you can just watch it right off your computer on your television set. But most of these products that have said, "Let's combine the television and the computer!? have failed. All of them have failed.
I don't understand why you'd want to mouse around on your TV set.
The problem is, when you're using your computer you're a foot away from it, you know? When you're using your television you want to be ten feet away from it. So they're really different animals.
Apple's thang has always been content *creation*, not content consumption. Expect that to continue.
Originally posted by Kickaha
... Apple's thang has always been content *creation*, not content consumption. Expect that to continue.
And as long as that "thang" continues, we will forever be locked in our "niche" and suffer ever smaller market share in the computer Industry.
Originally posted by Aphelion
And as long as that "thang" continues, we will forever be locked in our "niche" and suffer ever smaller market share in the computer Industry.
Let us not forget the lesson of the iPod, a media consumption device. What was it Steve said at Macworld about the iPod...? "It's nice to be better than 5% marketshare in something..." or something like that.
iLife let's anyone create. .Mac / Rendezvous, is intended to let anyone share. It is only natural for Apple to be looking for new ways to close the product loop and produce new means to consume.
1. Your computer is the organizer. Computers are great as organizers.
2. Your TV is the player. With the large screen, TVs are natural for viewing movies and photos.
3. The big, fat speaker setup your speaker setup has is great for playing music, and when playing music your TV let's you choose which song and playlist to play, and do other basic options (i.e. pause.) Next Track, Fast Forward, Rewind, Previous Track, and Pause are also offered on the audio system itself. Your computer plays the CDs if you want CDs.
Everything is streamed or sent over Ethernet using Rendezvous. The TV and the audio system have to be "smart," of course. An intelligent iPod dock for your music and photos (it would be a color iPod) also might factor in.
Existing apps are used for organizing photos and tunes, and a new app for organizing recorded TV shows and DVDs. You cannot organize your media on the TV, only play and choose what to play. The DVD playing app that now streams data to your TV is the same ol' DVD Player, now with an option to play on the TV. Once again, bookmarks and such are set on the computer; your TV only plays the DVD.
If you have a VHS player, you may record videotapes to the Mac, which are stored in the same app used to store DVDs and TV shows.
I like the idea that the iPod might be a trojan horse to control media streamed onto tv from Mac.
Steve Jobs seems to hint that a Mac might be the hub and the content might be streamed over something like Airport Extreme.
Lemon Bon Bon
Originally posted by Aphelion
Right, everyone on this board would love an xServe and xRaid tucked away in a soundproof closet, and we'd all be more than happy to drill holes in our walls to run fiber channel to our workstations and gigabit ethernet to our HDTV's and FireWire to our stereos.
Gee, that's why I said it would support wireless as well. And you'd still have that settop box, except that it would be smaller and cheaper. Many homes these days have more than 1 TV so you want more than one of these boxes. As time goes on, however, more and more homes are built with some form of networking so hardwired will be an attractive option for many.
Originally posted by Programmer
As time goes on, however, more and more homes are built with some form of networking so hardwired will be an attractive option for many.
definitely!