Classic mind control. Make a basic natural desire against god and you get people feeling guilty over their natural state of being so they are forced to turn to the collective group for support.
Could you please clarify. I do not see how your point relates to the point I was making or to the point I was responding to. I was defending the principles of Christianity. How does that constitute mind control?
What!!!??? Ever hear of "safe sex"? Less STDs is a sign of less unsafe sex. I'll bet you just about anything that here are less STDs spread in San Francisco than in Corpus Christi.
And morals are relative. Your morals are immoral to me. Sex is a healing and necessary part of both sociology and physiology. Just use a condom! And make sure that you're always honest about your intentions and your actions, and your partner(s) have the same approach.
Safe sex is not all that safe.
Alexander the Great
* Note *
I removed a link that I posted earlier. A more informative web page can be found here. The next post by tonton makes reference to the earlier link.
Wait a minute. Didn't your friend Joe stare through that glass thingamabob into the sun and get some sort of message from it? Something like "over there...and a bit to the right." Sounds like juju to me...but like you say, "to each his own." Good for you, my friend, finding some teaching you can agree with.
The answer to your question is no. If you are interested in an account of the events in Joseph Smith's own words, you can find it here. An in depth study will confirm the validity of his character and testimony.
I respect your opinion on the topic. However, there is nothing wrong with me disagreeing with you. I am of the opinion that adultery and fornication do have a very real and very negative effect on me and my posterity. If morality in America degenerates beyond a certain point, I assure you the effect will be very visible and very direct. To envision such a scenario, take a look at Africa.
Alexander the Great
You must sleep very badly knowing that adultry and occurs without your permission. perhaps even next door.
You can thank the idiot in the Vatican for the disaster in Africa. A religious leader with no ethics.
You must sleep very badly knowing that adultry and occurs without your permission. perhaps even next door.
You can thank the idiot in the Vatican for the disaster in Africa. A religious leader with no ethics.
No, I don't really sleep poorly because of it. I'm ok with the way things are right now, but that does not mean that I will not strive for something better. Don't get me wrong, I don't want adultery outlawed like murder is. We would have people calling the police every time a man visited his neighbor. However, I would like legislation that discourages it. There are countless ways to discourage it, many of which I'm sure would not be too offensive to you. I think it's harmful to society and I would to see it reduced, but I do not have a set plan of exactly how it should be reduced.
No need to refute the points. I just did a search for condom failure and that link said "BBC - Fact Sheet on Condom Failure," so I clicked on it and although the facts did seem a little off, I just posted it. I didn't look into as much as you did. But my point is still valid, even if the rates are lower than those stated on the web site. The phrase "safe sex" is misleading. A good way to be safe is abstinence before marriage and fidelity during marriage. A person can still get HIV, but they are pretty darn safe. I think that it is perfectly normal and natural to only have sex with a spouse. I really have no fear of ever getting HIV, although there is a small chance that I will. I'd be more worried about a plane that I was on going down than getting HIV, because I'm not at risk.
No, I don't really sleep poorly because of it. I'm ok with the way things are right now, but that does not mean that I will not strive for something better. Don't get me wrong, I don't want adultery outlawed like murder is. We would have people calling the police every time a man visited his neighbor. However, I would like legislation that discourages it. There are countless ways to discourage it, many of which I'm sure would not be too offensive to you. I think it's harmful to society and I would to see it reduced, but I do not have a set plan of exactly how it should be reduced.
Alexander the Great
Better in whos opinion? In the opinion of someone who wants to dictate what consenting adults do in private?
How is it harmful to society?
Is it more harmful, than say some old idiot in the vatican telling christians not to use condoms, when it is known that the number of aids cases would drop if they did? More harmful than that?
More harmful than evangelists telling christians to send them money or they will be recalled by god. More harmful than that?
More harmful than the church covering up child sex abuse within the church? More harmful than that?
You have a very strange definition of "harmful to society".
This behemoth of a structure sure cost a pretty penny to build. I think the money could have been better spent helping society. I guess that self glorification is more important though.
Better in whos opinion? In the opinion of someone who wants to dictate what consenting adults do in private?
How is it harmful to society?
Is it more harmful, than say some old idiot in the vatican telling christians not to use condoms, when it is known that the number of aids cases would drop if they did? More harmful than that?
More harmful than evangelists telling christians to send them money or they will be recalled by god. More harmful than that?
More harmful than the church covering up child sex abuse within the church? More harmful than that?
You have a very strange definition of "harmful to society".
A nation wide moral decline is harmful because it promotes the spread of disease. It's also harmful to the children who are born into broken homes. Concerning the importance of the family, much of what I believe can be summed up here. The other things that you mention are also harmful to society.
I was 4 when I was put into "sunday school" where they read bible stories, etc. Not that my parents are particularly religious - they thought it was a way to get me to meet other kids.
Anyway, I found the stories very improbable (heck, I had read several books by then, and I think some of them was about evolution). So I couldn't comfortably go to the school. I became an atheist.
Later on when I was about ten yrs old it occurred to me that I honestly do not know whether anything "supernatural" exists. So I became an agnostic. I still am.
Lately I've been interested in Zen, but haven't really taken any steps to learn about it.
This behemoth of a structure sure cost a pretty penny to build. I think the money could have been better spent helping society. I guess that self glorification is more important though.
Temples are expensive to build, however the blessings they provide to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints far outweigh their monetary cost. Here is some more about Temples.
tonton, thank you for the two links that you provided; I found them to be very informative. I apologize for having wasted your time by linking to an unreliable web page. I particularly liked this link that you provided. I may comment on some more points that you made, but I'd like to think about what you had to say a bit more before I reply.
A nation wide moral decline is harmful because it promotes the spread of disease. It's also harmful to the children who are born into broken homes. Concerning the importance of the family, much of what I believe can be summed up here. The other things that you mention are also harmful to society.
Alexander the Great
How does adultry promote the spread of disease?
The old fool in the vatican not allowing condoms promotes disease.
I saw a news item this evening about a 9 yo african boy waiting to die. Both his parents are dead. Is this more or less harmful than fornication and adultry?
Temples are expensive to build, however the blessings they provide to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints far outweigh their monetary cost. Here is some more about Temples.
Alexander the Great
That is sick. Are you saying blessings cannot be provided in a park, or a home, or a garage? How many mormons will actually get inside these monstrosities?
2. Anti wealth gap reduction (like the Bush tax cut)
3. Anti gay-rights
4. Anti sex ed (including the promotion of abstinance based education)
5. Anti condom use
6. Anti diplomacy
7. Anti feminism
8. Anti racial equality
9. Anti sexual health (like spreading the idea that sex in general is a bad thing, even if only for the unmarried, or that masturbation is bad, or that sexual practices during dating is bad)
10. Anti honesty as an attainable or admirable policy (sorry, Groverat)
...and I will speak out against them with the voice of fury (in other words sound like a dick) whenever I must.
Although it may not seem so, I agree with most of what you have stated here.
I was raised in a very conservative community. Growing up, I thought I was conservative, just like everybody else. When people mentioned less government, that seemed like a reasonable good thing because I had heard that the national deficit was real big. A couple of weeks ago I signed up for an American government class. After the first or second day of class we were asked to read about a chapter and a half from the text book. The chapter I read had a pretty fair description of liberalism and conservatism. After having learned the difference between the two I very quickly became liberal. I really don't understand how those around me can be conservative, it really doesn't make sense. The whole liberal thing is still new to me however and many of my opinions on topics are still being formed. One the first posts that I made within this topic stated that I am pro gay rights. That was not an easy conclusion to come to because I personally view homosexual intercourse to be a mockery of sacred things. Albeit, it's not quite as much of a mockery if the person is not Christian. Even if I don't agree with you right now on a particular point, I may later.
That is sick. Are you saying blessings cannot be provided in a park, or a home, or a garage? How many mormons will actually get inside these monstrosities?
My concern with this is that ONLY Mormon members can receive these blessings in a temple. It makes it seem like they don't care about the rest of society who need the gospel of Christ. The exhorbitant cost of the temples would seem more justified if ALL God's children could find refuge in those buildings. You don't see the Catholic church blocking non-members out of their cathedrals or the Salvation Army blocking non-members out of their shelters.
The view that adultery, fornication, and homosexual intercourse are sins is a fundamental Christian concept. There may be some Christian denominations that differ on these points, but that does not change the fundamentals of Christianity.
Alexander the Great
I do not disagree with you about adultery, but not because of the sexual aspect, but because it involves the betrayal of a pledge and the hurting of another.
With respect, I disagree with you about "fornication" and homosexual intercourse". Sexual activity itself was something about which Jesus had little or nothing to say. The views of some churches against certain sexual practices are not Christian in and of themselves, but are an overlay.
I agree that many Christian churches have historically taught such "values" (and many other anti-sex "values" besides), and that some still do - but I think that it is a grave error to refer to these values as Christian in and of themselves. In my view, the historical extreme anti-sex agenda of some Christian churches has itself been harmful and hurtful to human relations - and to human's persective on their relationship with God (guilt over a divine gift) - and from that point of view this agenda can itself be viewed as anti-Christian.
Comments
Originally posted by BR
Classic mind control. Make a basic natural desire against god and you get people feeling guilty over their natural state of being so they are forced to turn to the collective group for support.
Could you please clarify. I do not see how your point relates to the point I was making or to the point I was responding to. I was defending the principles of Christianity. How does that constitute mind control?
Alexander the Great
Originally posted by tonton
What!!!??? Ever hear of "safe sex"? Less STDs is a sign of less unsafe sex. I'll bet you just about anything that here are less STDs spread in San Francisco than in Corpus Christi.
And morals are relative. Your morals are immoral to me. Sex is a healing and necessary part of both sociology and physiology. Just use a condom! And make sure that you're always honest about your intentions and your actions, and your partner(s) have the same approach.
Safe sex is not all that safe.
Alexander the Great
* Note *
I removed a link that I posted earlier. A more informative web page can be found here. The next post by tonton makes reference to the earlier link.
Originally posted by tonton
Once again a conservative American ignoring the rest of the world.
It's been tested. And has never been unsuccessful.
I am very interested in learning about such cases. Do you know of any good studies I can read up on that authoritatively establish such views?
Alexander the Great
Originally posted by 709
Wait a minute. Didn't your friend Joe stare through that glass thingamabob into the sun and get some sort of message from it? Something like "over there...and a bit to the right." Sounds like juju to me...but like you say, "to each his own." Good for you, my friend, finding some teaching you can agree with.
The answer to your question is no. If you are interested in an account of the events in Joseph Smith's own words, you can find it here. An in depth study will confirm the validity of his character and testimony.
Alexander the Great
Originally posted by CosmoNut
Same to you.
I'm glad someone understands.
Originally posted by Alexander the Great
I respect your opinion on the topic. However, there is nothing wrong with me disagreeing with you. I am of the opinion that adultery and fornication do have a very real and very negative effect on me and my posterity. If morality in America degenerates beyond a certain point, I assure you the effect will be very visible and very direct. To envision such a scenario, take a look at Africa.
Alexander the Great
You must sleep very badly knowing that adultry and occurs without your permission. perhaps even next door.
You can thank the idiot in the Vatican for the disaster in Africa. A religious leader with no ethics.
Originally posted by xenu
You must sleep very badly knowing that adultry and occurs without your permission. perhaps even next door.
You can thank the idiot in the Vatican for the disaster in Africa. A religious leader with no ethics.
No, I don't really sleep poorly because of it. I'm ok with the way things are right now, but that does not mean that I will not strive for something better. Don't get me wrong, I don't want adultery outlawed like murder is. We would have people calling the police every time a man visited his neighbor. However, I would like legislation that discourages it. There are countless ways to discourage it, many of which I'm sure would not be too offensive to you. I think it's harmful to society and I would to see it reduced, but I do not have a set plan of exactly how it should be reduced.
Alexander the Great
No need to refute the points. I just did a search for condom failure and that link said "BBC - Fact Sheet on Condom Failure," so I clicked on it and although the facts did seem a little off, I just posted it. I didn't look into as much as you did. But my point is still valid, even if the rates are lower than those stated on the web site. The phrase "safe sex" is misleading. A good way to be safe is abstinence before marriage and fidelity during marriage. A person can still get HIV, but they are pretty darn safe. I think that it is perfectly normal and natural to only have sex with a spouse. I really have no fear of ever getting HIV, although there is a small chance that I will. I'd be more worried about a plane that I was on going down than getting HIV, because I'm not at risk.
Alexander the Great
Originally posted by Alexander the Great
No, I don't really sleep poorly because of it. I'm ok with the way things are right now, but that does not mean that I will not strive for something better. Don't get me wrong, I don't want adultery outlawed like murder is. We would have people calling the police every time a man visited his neighbor. However, I would like legislation that discourages it. There are countless ways to discourage it, many of which I'm sure would not be too offensive to you. I think it's harmful to society and I would to see it reduced, but I do not have a set plan of exactly how it should be reduced.
Alexander the Great
Better in whos opinion? In the opinion of someone who wants to dictate what consenting adults do in private?
How is it harmful to society?
Is it more harmful, than say some old idiot in the vatican telling christians not to use condoms, when it is known that the number of aids cases would drop if they did? More harmful than that?
More harmful than evangelists telling christians to send them money or they will be recalled by god. More harmful than that?
More harmful than the church covering up child sex abuse within the church? More harmful than that?
You have a very strange definition of "harmful to society".
http://www.sciencemeetsart.com/emese...n_temple_1.jpg
http://www.sciencemeetsart.com/emese...n_temple_3.jpg
This behemoth of a structure sure cost a pretty penny to build. I think the money could have been better spent helping society. I guess that self glorification is more important though.
Originally posted by xenu
Better in whos opinion? In the opinion of someone who wants to dictate what consenting adults do in private?
How is it harmful to society?
Is it more harmful, than say some old idiot in the vatican telling christians not to use condoms, when it is known that the number of aids cases would drop if they did? More harmful than that?
More harmful than evangelists telling christians to send them money or they will be recalled by god. More harmful than that?
More harmful than the church covering up child sex abuse within the church? More harmful than that?
You have a very strange definition of "harmful to society".
A nation wide moral decline is harmful because it promotes the spread of disease. It's also harmful to the children who are born into broken homes. Concerning the importance of the family, much of what I believe can be summed up here. The other things that you mention are also harmful to society.
Alexander the Great
Anyway, I found the stories very improbable (heck, I had read several books by then, and I think some of them was about evolution). So I couldn't comfortably go to the school. I became an atheist.
Later on when I was about ten yrs old it occurred to me that I honestly do not know whether anything "supernatural" exists. So I became an agnostic. I still am.
Lately I've been interested in Zen, but haven't really taken any steps to learn about it.
Originally posted by BR
I actually want to know Alexander's opinion of the Mormon Castle in La Jolla, California.
http://www.sciencemeetsart.com/emese...n_temple_1.jpg
http://www.sciencemeetsart.com/emese...n_temple_3.jpg
This behemoth of a structure sure cost a pretty penny to build. I think the money could have been better spent helping society. I guess that self glorification is more important though.
Temples are expensive to build, however the blessings they provide to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints far outweigh their monetary cost. Here is some more about Temples.
Alexander the Great
Thanks for your comments,
Alexander the Great
Originally posted by Alexander the Great
A nation wide moral decline is harmful because it promotes the spread of disease. It's also harmful to the children who are born into broken homes. Concerning the importance of the family, much of what I believe can be summed up here. The other things that you mention are also harmful to society.
Alexander the Great
How does adultry promote the spread of disease?
The old fool in the vatican not allowing condoms promotes disease.
I saw a news item this evening about a 9 yo african boy waiting to die. Both his parents are dead. Is this more or less harmful than fornication and adultry?
Originally posted by Alexander the Great
Temples are expensive to build, however the blessings they provide to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints far outweigh their monetary cost. Here is some more about Temples.
Alexander the Great
That is sick. Are you saying blessings cannot be provided in a park, or a home, or a garage? How many mormons will actually get inside these monstrosities?
Originally posted by tonton
I'm sorry for sounding like such a jerk (really).
But these things really get my goat:
1. Anti choice
2. Anti wealth gap reduction (like the Bush tax cut)
3. Anti gay-rights
4. Anti sex ed (including the promotion of abstinance based education)
5. Anti condom use
6. Anti diplomacy
7. Anti feminism
8. Anti racial equality
9. Anti sexual health (like spreading the idea that sex in general is a bad thing, even if only for the unmarried, or that masturbation is bad, or that sexual practices during dating is bad)
10. Anti honesty as an attainable or admirable policy (sorry, Groverat)
...and I will speak out against them with the voice of fury (in other words sound like a dick) whenever I must.
Although it may not seem so, I agree with most of what you have stated here.
I was raised in a very conservative community. Growing up, I thought I was conservative, just like everybody else. When people mentioned less government, that seemed like a reasonable good thing because I had heard that the national deficit was real big. A couple of weeks ago I signed up for an American government class. After the first or second day of class we were asked to read about a chapter and a half from the text book. The chapter I read had a pretty fair description of liberalism and conservatism. After having learned the difference between the two I very quickly became liberal. I really don't understand how those around me can be conservative, it really doesn't make sense. The whole liberal thing is still new to me however and many of my opinions on topics are still being formed. One the first posts that I made within this topic stated that I am pro gay rights. That was not an easy conclusion to come to because I personally view homosexual intercourse to be a mockery of sacred things. Albeit, it's not quite as much of a mockery if the person is not Christian. Even if I don't agree with you right now on a particular point, I may later.
Alexander the Great
Originally posted by xenu
That is sick. Are you saying blessings cannot be provided in a park, or a home, or a garage? How many mormons will actually get inside these monstrosities?
My concern with this is that ONLY Mormon members can receive these blessings in a temple. It makes it seem like they don't care about the rest of society who need the gospel of Christ. The exhorbitant cost of the temples would seem more justified if ALL God's children could find refuge in those buildings. You don't see the Catholic church blocking non-members out of their cathedrals or the Salvation Army blocking non-members out of their shelters.
Originally posted by Alexander the Great
The view that adultery, fornication, and homosexual intercourse are sins is a fundamental Christian concept. There may be some Christian denominations that differ on these points, but that does not change the fundamentals of Christianity.
Alexander the Great
I do not disagree with you about adultery, but not because of the sexual aspect, but because it involves the betrayal of a pledge and the hurting of another.
With respect, I disagree with you about "fornication" and homosexual intercourse". Sexual activity itself was something about which Jesus had little or nothing to say. The views of some churches against certain sexual practices are not Christian in and of themselves, but are an overlay.
I agree that many Christian churches have historically taught such "values" (and many other anti-sex "values" besides), and that some still do - but I think that it is a grave error to refer to these values as Christian in and of themselves. In my view, the historical extreme anti-sex agenda of some Christian churches has itself been harmful and hurtful to human relations - and to human's persective on their relationship with God (guilt over a divine gift) - and from that point of view this agenda can itself be viewed as anti-Christian.
1._
Mainline - Liberal Christian Protestants (100%)
2._
Orthodox Quaker (93%)
3._
Liberal Quakers (81%)
4._
Unitarian Universalism (78%)
5._
Mainline - Conservative Christian Protestant (73%)
6._
Seventh Day Adventist (69%)
7._
Eastern Orthodox (68%)
8._
Roman Catholic (68%)
9._
Hinduism (47%)
10._
New Thought (46%)
11._
Reform Judaism (46%)
12._
New Age (45%)
13._
Sikhism (45%)
14._
Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (43%)
15._
Mahayana Buddhism (39%)
16._
Theravada Buddhism (39%)
17._
Neo-Pagan (38%)
18._
Orthodox Judaism (36%)
19._
Bahá'Ã* Faith (35%)
20._
Scientology (35%)
21._
Islam (33%)
22._
Secular Humanism (31%)
23._
Taoism (31%)
24._
Jainism (26%)
25._
Non-theist (20%)
26._
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (17%)
27._
Jehovah's Witness (17%)
Fellows