Polaroid and Foveon hop in bed

Posted:
in General Discussion edited January 2014
And the result is a $399 Baby Boy



http://www.foveon.com/press_x530.html



I wonder how this will stack up against the 5-6MP digicams coming from the competitors.



I still have my eye on the A75. Can't wait for the reviews coming up this year.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 27
    Here's a couple of Polaroid pictures:









    An unfortunate thing may be no Mac compatible software. I believe Polaroid hasn't supplied it for any of their other digital cameras. Hopefully the Foveon makers will on this one.
  • Reply 2 of 27
    kwondokwondo Posts: 217member
    There was a nice write up about this camera in today's NYTimesontheweb.
  • Reply 3 of 27
    eugeneeugene Posts: 8,254member
    The <$400 5-6 megapixel cameras have never been any better than the 4 megapixel cameras. If you buy a 1/1.8" 5+ megapixel camera, you've been duped by marketing. Consumers should not be shopping for megapixels.



    I'd say the "1.5" mp X3 sensor is perfectly capable of creating great very sharp 8x10s, something you need a traditional 3 mp res mosaic sensor to accomplish. The big question mark is "Polaroid," not Foveon.
  • Reply 4 of 27
    matsumatsu Posts: 6,558member
    Eugene, that's the first time someone has struck the right chord in the Foveon vs Bayer debate.



    It doesn't really matter what you can get out of a Foveon or a Bayer. What can you get out of them at the same price?



    I will be interested to see how the 399 Polaroid compares to other 399 Bayer cameras.



    The more expensive 5MP+ 1/1.8 and/or 2/3rds cams do deliver though, at least at low ISO.
  • Reply 5 of 27
    Actually, Polaroid is just licensing its name. They won't even distribute the camera. Uniden handles U.S. distribution I believe. Since going private, Polaroid has licensed its name for digital and regular cameras, DVD players and upcoming Plasma tvs. They still market instant cameras/film and sunglasses themselves however. They also have a fabulous Kiosk set-up that prints from various media in about 2 seconds per 4 X 6 print. The system is being test marketed right now. Back in the 70s Polaroid was THE hi tech company in terms of innovation. When they introduced the SX-70 camera/film system they were riding high. It is considered one of the great consumer inventions of the 20th century. They have hundreds of patents on camera, optical and film/chemical technology.
  • Reply 6 of 27
    eugeneeugene Posts: 8,254member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by MacsRGood4U

    Actually, Polaroid is just licensing its name.



    Hence the double quotes around Polaroid in my post. The real Polaroid went bankrupt and liquidated its assets in 2002.
  • Reply 7 of 27
    As I stated above, the "real" Polaroid is still in business. They sold certain assets (property and businesses) and are now out of bankruptcy. It's now a private company. They still own their patents on instant film and camera technology and own them on their unique chemicals as well. They also own patents on their flat battery and sonar rangefinding. Nevertheless, should be an interesting camera.
  • Reply 8 of 27
    eugeneeugene Posts: 8,254member
    I don't see how you can call that the 'real' Polaroid. Fact is the only salvageable bits were sold to BankOne, which as you said is whoring out the brand name on a bunch of commodity consumer products.
  • Reply 9 of 27
    Eugene,



    There are two Polaroids actually. The original company selling instant cameras and film products (along with sunglasses) and Primary PDC Inc which, as you say, is whoring out the name for a myriad of products. There's even a line of ink cartridges. However, the core Polaroid company does remain in operation as Polaroid Corporation. It retains all the patents issued to it. To keep the company afloat, they sold all of their manufacturing facilites, real estate and other non-core businesses.
  • Reply 10 of 27
    Polaroid has announced at the Photographers Marketing Association convention a complete overhaul of their instant camera models. Six new ones will be introduced this year including the most expensive consumer model in a long time. The Image 1200 will feature a color LCD display and retail for $169. The iZone model will undergo a re-design and be smaller. All use various size instant film. The company is alive and well.
  • Reply 11 of 27
    matsumatsu Posts: 6,558member
    Even in those pics, it doesn't look very promising from a fit and finish standpoint.



    From here it looks like Foveon is slumming.
  • Reply 12 of 27
    eugeneeugene Posts: 8,254member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Matsu

    Even in those pics, it doesn't look very promising from a fit and finish standpoint.



    Of course it doesn't. It's a painted balsa or plastic mock-up. Sheesh.



    Quote:

    From here it looks like Foveon is slumming.



    You've said that from the beginning. They're just moving slow and steady like most other smartly run private companies. There's no reason to to go head-to-head against the high mp Sony, FillFactory, Toshiba, and other image sensors. They're already making Foveon's case just fine. *Cough*F828*Cough* ...
  • Reply 13 of 27
    matsumatsu Posts: 6,558member
    You misinterpret me.



    Like you, I think the foveon part of the camera will probably be fine, especially now that there's in-camera JPEG, it's the polariod part that seems troubling. Having seen a skid of Polariod portable DVD players at the local costco, balsa or plastic, that mock-up looks about right in the fit and finish dept.



    There's no way to look at the 828 except as a triumph of marketting over performance. It's probably an OK camera for those doing ISO 64 studio shots on a budget. It's nicely made, sure. It even has some intriguing features, but what's the point of nightshooting/laser focus assist if the low light performance is so horrendous? Pure gimmickry, and expensive too. Enough to earn the first non Apple related pricing dance 999USD and they originally had the balls to mark this thing at 1199 though I think Canon changed their minds about that one



    Now Sigma has signed on to 4/3rds, I wonder if that means lense support only, or if they'll have a 4/3rds X3 body. Get it in cheaper than the SD 10, and a bit simpler (in-camera JPEG) with a 28-90 equivalent lense kit for 999, and suddenly we've got a really nice value proposition.



    Almost there, but this polaroid won't do it. I've been reading some high traffic photography forums. What do consumers want? A nice looking camera at a decent price. Some even want a nice looking camera at a stupid price, evidence the raft of people who can't admit they want an 828 just for the look.



    Can polariod sell either of these sets of people a crappy looking camera?
  • Reply 14 of 27
    The digital camera will be made by a company other then the electronics stuff you see at Best Buy (Petters, a Minneapolis firm, has those made in Taiwan/China using the Polaroid name). As stated the Foveon is mockup. Let's wait and see I'd say. Polaroid Corp. will not be selling the digital cameras to dealers, including the Foveon. Concord makes all the non-instant digital and film cameras with the Polaroid name. They will not make the Foveon however. The instant cameras will be made by Polaroid's usual suppliers which includes Fuji (Mio) and others.
  • Reply 15 of 27
    At this resolution, they really should release something like the Canon Elph in form factor. This looks too bulky for the mediocre resolution. Might be acceptable at the 8MP resolution class, but not in the 4MP. Sorry, but it's going to be a loser.
  • Reply 16 of 27
    Since the Foveon uses a different method of imaging, a 4.5 MP resolution may actually equal a higher resolution of a non-Foveon system. Of course, some people have a sixth sense about these things and can ascertain quality, saleability, etc. just by looking at a mock up.
  • Reply 17 of 27
    eugeneeugene Posts: 8,254member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Matsu

    Now Sigma has signed on to 4/3rds, I wonder if that means lense support only, or if they'll have a 4/3rds X3 body. Get it in cheaper than the SD 10, and a bit simpler (in-camera JPEG) with a 28-90 equivalent lense kit for 999, and suddenly we've got a really nice value proposition.



    Lens support only for now. The 4/3" format is ho-hum to me. For now, I think the APS sensor size is the best compromise, and 4/3rds is going too small in the name of making more compact cameras and lenses. A 28-90mm equivalent lens for the 4/3" format would have to be a 14-45mm. That lens would cost quite a bit.
  • Reply 18 of 27
    matsumatsu Posts: 6,558member
    I think APS is better too. Then you have an option for your long lenses, if you move up to full frame.



    Some food for thought, thanks to the good folks at DPReview:



    2/3rds = 8.8 x 6.6mm



    4/3rds = 18 x 13.5mm



    APS = 25.1 x 16.7mm



    35mm = 36 x 24mm



    I'm not sure that a 14-45 4/3rds lense really ought to cost that much. It's substantially smaller than a 28-90 -- about half the size. With manufacturers making pretty decent 28-200 35mm zooms (general purpose, budget, walk about stuff) 4/3rds could come in a lot cheaper, and smaller. The expensive Oly-Zuiko stuff hasn't, but a company like Sigma could. They could even keep it reasonably bright for reasonable money, say f/2.8 constant.



    Also, as the P&S guys are bumping into the limit of 2/3rds performance, it might make the most sense for them to jump up to 4/3rds. They don't need to be SLR. They can go with EVF type, electronic shutter systems to save themselves the expense of good shutter/body/mechanicals, and just build bigger EVF systems.



    Something like the Sony 828, or new Olympus 8080, would probably be pretty good with 8MP 4/3rds, EVF, and a fixed lense covering somewhere in the 28-135 (35mm equivalent) range. Wouldn't really be that much bigger than what they're selling with 2/3rds now. A little less zoom, but a lot better performance too.



    Zoom, however, like MP, sells.
  • Reply 19 of 27
    Quote:

    Originally posted by MacsRGood4U

    Since the Foveon uses a different method of imaging, a 4.5 MP resolution may actually equal a higher resolution of a non-Foveon system. Of course, some people have a sixth sense about these things and can ascertain quality, saleability, etc. just by looking at a mock up.



    It should be interesting, the Sigma SD10 uses the Fovean 3.4 MP sensor, and apparently can outperform 6MP cameras. I wonder if this means the Sigma is going to get an update as well.
  • Reply 20 of 27
    eugeneeugene Posts: 8,254member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by the cool gut

    It should be interesting, the Sigma SD10 uses the Fovean 3.4 MP sensor, and apparently can outperform 6MP cameras. I wonder if this means the Sigma is going to get an update as well.



    The Sigma SD10 has a 10 million pixel Foveon X3 CMOS sensor. The Polaroid has a 4.5 million pixel sensor which outputs 1.5 megapixel images. I don't see why the SD10 would get an update.



    A conventional "36 pixel "digital camera would have something like this 36 pixel sensor:

    Code:


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    A Foveon based camera with the following stacked 108 pixel sensor would also create a 36 pixel image:

    Code:


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    \\R\\R\\R\\R\\R\\R\\

    \\R\\R\\R\\R\\R\\R\\

    \\R\\R\\R\\R\\R\\R\\

    \\R\\R\\R\\R\\R\\R\\

    \\R\\R\\R\\R\\R\\R\\

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    As you can see, the checker-board sensor is cheating to achieve its full resolution. It must use sophisticated processing to "guess" whether there was actually blue or green light hitting the sensor where there is only a red pixel and vice-versa. With the Foveon sensor, there's no guesswork involved.
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