I'd like to point out that I was in an Apple Store on Friday and they had several new Dual 1Ghz models out. I fealt the air coming out the back and it was quite warm. Not hot, but I could tell it needed those airholes. So we may be predicting too much to ask for a G5 in that case, it may be stretched to Apple's limit (tolerence for how many fans they'll put in) to support 1.25.
To compare, the air off of my 1.2Ghz Athlon is slightly cooler than the Mac's was. It's got a PAL8045 heatsink (smaller, but the biggest in the PC world) and 4 Panaflo L1A fans.
<strong>sounds like the above post is leading somewhere...
...if the case is ready and not the chip, then I, myselft, would want to fall back to higher clocked G4's. The chip in those <a href="http://www.geocities.com/willywalloo/"; target="_blank">leaked</a> pictures are showing chips that don't look like the G4 chips as of current.
The thing is that if they don't get enough successful chips per wafer, than the full-blown manufacturing process must be optimized, and therefore must be put off for the time being: thus the older chips are used. Hey, we don't want a peice of crap that fly's faster, but no crap and a good overall computer engine.
-walloo
p.s. waiting is good, but let's not milk it. Put money into the project; as money and time are sometimes inversly related.</strong><hr></blockquote>
They look exactly like every 745x chip ever produced. The chips in Apple's diagrams are 7400/7410s...quite misleading. Apple's website has never shown a photo of a 745x.
I have a theory on the case / power supply / air flow:
Quad processors.
Why else would they need a heatsink that honking big? They changed the case now to help spurn sales and emphasize the changes they made internally. They'll keep this case until AT LEAST January, and then at MWSF 2003, they release the first Quad g4 mac.
Which would put a Power4 G5 coming in the summer or MWSF 2004?
I don't believe for a second that El Capitan will be in the next generation Powermacs. I picture an Xserve / Powerbook G4 metal look, with handles and notherboard-mounted door.
<strong>I have a theory on the case / power supply / air flow:
Quad processors.
Why else would they need a heatsink that honking big? They changed the case now to help spurn sales and emphasize the changes they made internally. They'll keep this case until AT LEAST January, and then at MWSF 2003, they release the first Quad g4 mac.
Which would put a Power4 G5 coming in the summer or MWSF 2004?
I don't believe for a second that El Capitan will be in the next generation Powermacs. I picture an Xserve / Powerbook G4 metal look, with handles and notherboard-mounted door.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't think you need anything even that exotic to explain the excess cooling capacity... a higher clockrate G4 on the current process would put out considerably more heat, and two of the would put out double that much.
There are a few reasons to use the mobo+case rather then the old style.
1: is DDR. Besides the xserve, the QS or any other mac do not use DDR ram and one needs to pair up mobo's with their cases. You could get a whole bunch of odd problems if you didn't test them beforehand.
2: is sound, expansion, and heat disapation. The new cases are much quieter, more bays, 4pci slots, and better cooling. These could all attract potiental buyers.
3: is production. This is pretty important, if you have contracts and equipment setup, you use them.
Begining production of case+mobo now can also be advantageous to the "possible new chip" if one is using the same mobo/slightly modded one. Apple has an earily lead with a large consumer test bed to fix any potential bugs, C&C production statistics, and will gain experience from other little things too.
And for the rumor mogering, if plans suddenly changed, Apple made of found themselves with contracts and production equipment lined up with no chip, virtually forcing them to use the new case and mobo. Of course any decent company would have a backup plan that would be something like G4/G5 compatitable-just in case.
Well, it looks like the current G4 is being pushed to its limit with the current die.
That's how this G4 tops out. It surely can't go anyhigher without liquid nitro cooling.
At .13...what do we get? And...1.25 - 1.8?
The mythical 7470? Or the legendary mythical 7500?
I'd like the latter as the last G4 chip. Go out on a high note.
We 'know' there's no Moto' G5 now. Obvious seeming.
But where does it say Moto' has stopped G4 development? With subsequent die shrinks...it can go on and on for a while. Just not, I hope, in the towers. Enough already.
It's past its sell by date for the towers. And Apple tower sales show this. Geez, Apple, buy a clue already. Take the goddamn hint!!!
That and the £1350 :eek: starting price aint helping.
I think Apple pro sales will get another kickin' this quarter too. They predict 'flat' sales themselves. Circa 160, 000? Ish? The dual processor format might stop them going any lower or may sell a few more. But stagnant sales may prompt them to get aggressive with the G5 timetable... Yeesh, Intel are going to .9? And we aint at the .13 table yet...
Do 'new' (well, they're only using processors we've seen before bar the 'shipping in 8 weeks' config'...hahahhahahahah. Ahem) 'power'Macs indicate a powerlite?
Er. I hope so. But I get the feeling they'll eek out 'one more' revision of the G4.
It'll be interesting if these towers don't get a proper revision for San Fran. Cause Quark 6 is coming round the mountain. Wonder if Q6 will make a 'spike' in tower sales? Any bets?
Or will sane people vote with their wallets: hint: we want the 'G5' Apple.
Of course...not that there's any urgency to improve the 'power'Macs...it's only their flagship computer...in their keystone creative markets...I'm sure there's no rush to stop Dell workstations eroding your market share...
...take your time...spend the whole of 2002 throwing morsels at your key customers... out of date components ram and bus at inflated prices...and, of course, the odd 'hack' job at the market...guaranteed to drive sales...and improve marketshare. Price them out of reach of those Switchers who want an expandable computer and you've got a 'Workstation' by proxy...
And the final ingredient to drive sales...is to stand up in public and say 'We'll get more sales when X is decently dressed...' or..., 'We'll get more sales when Photoshop 7 goes X...' or that old favourite, 'We think our pro' customers are waiting for Quark...' or you could try, 'We don't know why pro sales are suffering...'
Er. Well, Apple. I'm a customer. I have money for a 'POWER'Mac. When you offer one. I'll buy one. Seeing as they like feedback so much these days. Perhaps they should spend less time telling pro' customers that there out of date G4s are fast enough and ask Musicians, Graphic artists and 3D artists and hardcore gamers what kind of performance they'd like to see.
They might find the answers enlightening.
Of course, the true reason I haven't replaced my 'power'Mac with another is nothing to do with price, performance, out of date specs or Apple's excuses...it's because I'm an x86 demon devil worshipping...er...troll trolling Bill Gates shoes licking mhz brown noser.
Ahem. Glad I got that confessional piece of my chest. I feel exorcised...
I think we will see top of the range PM updated to the 7470 with proper support for DDR and then scaling to 1.6 or more.
I also think we will see the introduction of a new higher power professional machine based on the Power 4. However, I expect these lines to run concurrently and at very different price points.
I believe that for most of us the PM7470 DP1.6 and all the bells and whistles will be sufficent as it will probably out perform anything Wintel can offer. The Power 4 based machine will cost an arm and a leg and could start at $10k but will be the fastest desktop machine for a very long time to come, and be the no.1 machine for render farms.
This is what I expect, it isn't what I want, it is just what I expect to happen.
Does M$ really have a 64bit version of Windows that would be out in time for AMD's release of Hammer?
I dont think AMD is really to much of a threat.
I think apple is going to do really well in the next few years. There is plenty of stuff in the works. The new power macs would have been awsome if Craporola didnt screw things up.
Guys, there are other things inside a case that take up lots of power besides the CPU. Has anyone considered that this case might be around for a year and both ATI and NVidia are coming out with next generation GPU's? How much power does the 9700 draw (I don't know- I can't find any statistics on the web)? It could be that Apple is using a power supply that they expect to be using well into the future, and so it has room to grow in accordance with future upgrades in all areas.
The 9700 has 110 million transistors. This chip must consume quite a bit of power to do what it does!
[quote] 1: is DDR. Besides the xserve, the QS or any other mac do not use DDR ram and one needs to pair up mobo's with their cases. You could get a whole bunch of odd problems if you didn't test them beforehand. <hr></blockquote>
Huh? I bought an Inwin Q500N case about 3 years ago intending to put a Celeron 300 on a BX chipset in it, with PC100 RAM. I ended up finally getting around to building a PC, and it ended up with an nForce motherboard, AthlonXP 1800+ CPU, and PC2100 DDR RAM in it. All I did to make sure my case would work is check to make sure the power supple said at least 300 watts. IT's ALL MECHANICAL, there's no reason things like RAM type would have an effect on a case's suitability for a computer.
DDR-SDRAM is known to use LESS power because it is made on a smaller process than SDR-SDRAM. That's also one of the reasons it's being clocked higher than SDRAM (166-200MHz) so easily.
<strong>In the discussion following the article someone posted a chart of other machines and the power supplys they contain, the only other machines that come close are the IBM pSeries dual and quad Power4 Servers. </strong><hr></blockquote>
[code]do while $upgradefever == TRUE
Print("The new chip IBM says it will describe at the MPF in October is NOT the Power 4."\
"The Power 4 WILL NEVER appear in a Mac desktop unit."\
I think internally this case was designed to be used with either a G4 or a G5 and I think it will be when the G5 comes along. However, I don't think it would be difficult to design a new shell around this interior case. There's a lot they can do with it.
Comments
To compare, the air off of my 1.2Ghz Athlon is slightly cooler than the Mac's was. It's got a PAL8045 heatsink (smaller, but the biggest in the PC world) and 4 Panaflo L1A fans.
<strong>Surely the G4's, even in dual configuration do not need this much cooling.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Are you sure?
<strong>sounds like the above post is leading somewhere...
...if the case is ready and not the chip, then I, myselft, would want to fall back to higher clocked G4's. The chip in those <a href="http://www.geocities.com/willywalloo/"; target="_blank">leaked</a> pictures are showing chips that don't look like the G4 chips as of current.
The thing is that if they don't get enough successful chips per wafer, than the full-blown manufacturing process must be optimized, and therefore must be put off for the time being: thus the older chips are used. Hey, we don't want a peice of crap that fly's faster, but no crap and a good overall computer engine.
-walloo
p.s. waiting is good, but let's not milk it. Put money into the project; as money and time are sometimes inversly related.</strong><hr></blockquote>
They look exactly like every 745x chip ever produced. The chips in Apple's diagrams are 7400/7410s...quite misleading. Apple's website has never shown a photo of a 745x.
Quad processors.
Why else would they need a heatsink that honking big? They changed the case now to help spurn sales and emphasize the changes they made internally. They'll keep this case until AT LEAST January, and then at MWSF 2003, they release the first Quad g4 mac.
Which would put a Power4 G5 coming in the summer or MWSF 2004?
Macosrumors has some speculation on this.
<a href="http://www.macosrumors.com/"; target="_blank">http://www.macosrumors.com/</a>;
I don't believe for a second that El Capitan will be in the next generation Powermacs. I picture an Xserve / Powerbook G4 metal look, with handles and notherboard-mounted door.
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">
<strong>I have a theory on the case / power supply / air flow:
Quad processors.
Why else would they need a heatsink that honking big? They changed the case now to help spurn sales and emphasize the changes they made internally. They'll keep this case until AT LEAST January, and then at MWSF 2003, they release the first Quad g4 mac.
Which would put a Power4 G5 coming in the summer or MWSF 2004?
Macosrumors has some speculation on this.
<a href="http://www.macosrumors.com/"; target="_blank">http://www.macosrumors.com/</a>;
I don't believe for a second that El Capitan will be in the next generation Powermacs. I picture an Xserve / Powerbook G4 metal look, with handles and notherboard-mounted door.
I don't think you need anything even that exotic to explain the excess cooling capacity... a higher clockrate G4 on the current process would put out considerably more heat, and two of the would put out double that much.
<strong>Apple had plans that fell through.
The current stop gap motherboard being end product of it..if Moki is to be believed.</strong><hr></blockquote>
bah! moki is nothing but a filthy liar!
1: is DDR. Besides the xserve, the QS or any other mac do not use DDR ram and one needs to pair up mobo's with their cases. You could get a whole bunch of odd problems if you didn't test them beforehand.
2: is sound, expansion, and heat disapation. The new cases are much quieter, more bays, 4pci slots, and better cooling. These could all attract potiental buyers.
3: is production. This is pretty important, if you have contracts and equipment setup, you use them.
Begining production of case+mobo now can also be advantageous to the "possible new chip" if one is using the same mobo/slightly modded one. Apple has an earily lead with a large consumer test bed to fix any potential bugs, C&C production statistics, and will gain experience from other little things too.
And for the rumor mogering, if plans suddenly changed, Apple made of found themselves with contracts and production equipment lined up with no chip, virtually forcing them to use the new case and mobo. Of course any decent company would have a backup plan that would be something like G4/G5 compatitable-just in case.
~Kuku
You're being watched closely...
As regard the heatsink.
Well, it looks like the current G4 is being pushed to its limit with the current die.
That's how this G4 tops out. It surely can't go anyhigher without liquid nitro cooling.
At .13...what do we get? And...1.25 - 1.8?
The mythical 7470? Or the legendary mythical 7500?
I'd like the latter as the last G4 chip. Go out on a high note.
We 'know' there's no Moto' G5 now. Obvious seeming.
But where does it say Moto' has stopped G4 development? With subsequent die shrinks...it can go on and on for a while. Just not, I hope, in the towers. Enough already.
It's past its sell by date for the towers. And Apple tower sales show this. Geez, Apple, buy a clue already. Take the goddamn hint!!!
That and the £1350 :eek: starting price aint helping.
I think Apple pro sales will get another kickin' this quarter too. They predict 'flat' sales themselves. Circa 160, 000? Ish? The dual processor format might stop them going any lower or may sell a few more. But stagnant sales may prompt them to get aggressive with the G5 timetable... Yeesh, Intel are going to .9? And we aint at the .13 table yet...
Do 'new' (well, they're only using processors we've seen before bar the 'shipping in 8 weeks' config'...hahahhahahahah. Ahem) 'power'Macs indicate a powerlite?
Er. I hope so. But I get the feeling they'll eek out 'one more' revision of the G4.
It'll be interesting if these towers don't get a proper revision for San Fran. Cause Quark 6 is coming round the mountain. Wonder if Q6 will make a 'spike' in tower sales? Any bets?
Or will sane people vote with their wallets: hint: we want the 'G5' Apple.
Lemon Bon Bon
...take your time...spend the whole of 2002 throwing morsels at your key customers... out of date components ram and bus at inflated prices...and, of course, the odd 'hack' job at the market...guaranteed to drive sales...and improve marketshare. Price them out of reach of those Switchers who want an expandable computer and you've got a 'Workstation' by proxy...
And the final ingredient to drive sales...is to stand up in public and say 'We'll get more sales when X is decently dressed...' or..., 'We'll get more sales when Photoshop 7 goes X...' or that old favourite, 'We think our pro' customers are waiting for Quark...' or you could try, 'We don't know why pro sales are suffering...'
Er. Well, Apple. I'm a customer. I have money for a 'POWER'Mac. When you offer one. I'll buy one. Seeing as they like feedback so much these days. Perhaps they should spend less time telling pro' customers that there out of date G4s are fast enough and ask Musicians, Graphic artists and 3D artists and hardcore gamers what kind of performance they'd like to see.
They might find the answers enlightening.
Of course, the true reason I haven't replaced my 'power'Mac with another is nothing to do with price, performance, out of date specs or Apple's excuses...it's because I'm an x86 demon devil worshipping...er...troll trolling Bill Gates shoes licking mhz brown noser.
Ahem. Glad I got that confessional piece of my chest. I feel exorcised...
Lemon Bon Bon
[ 08-20-2002: Message edited by: Lemon Bon Bon ]
[ 08-20-2002: Message edited by: Lemon Bon Bon ]</p>
I also think we will see the introduction of a new higher power professional machine based on the Power 4. However, I expect these lines to run concurrently and at very different price points.
I believe that for most of us the PM7470 DP1.6 and all the bells and whistles will be sufficent as it will probably out perform anything Wintel can offer. The Power 4 based machine will cost an arm and a leg and could start at $10k but will be the fastest desktop machine for a very long time to come, and be the no.1 machine for render farms.
This is what I expect, it isn't what I want, it is just what I expect to happen.
I dont think AMD is really to much of a threat.
I think apple is going to do really well in the next few years. There is plenty of stuff in the works. The new power macs would have been awsome if Craporola didnt screw things up.
<strong>Does M$ really have a 64bit version of Windows that would be out in time for AMD's release of Hammer?
I dont think AMD is really to much of a threat..</strong><hr></blockquote>
Indeed; they may be a wonderful ally.
The 9700 has 110 million transistors. This chip must consume quite a bit of power to do what it does!
<strong>
Indeed; they may be a wonderful ally.
hahaha, you're trademark subtle hints. Saying something without really saying anything
[quote] 1: is DDR. Besides the xserve, the QS or any other mac do not use DDR ram and one needs to pair up mobo's with their cases. You could get a whole bunch of odd problems if you didn't test them beforehand. <hr></blockquote>
Huh? I bought an Inwin Q500N case about 3 years ago intending to put a Celeron 300 on a BX chipset in it, with PC100 RAM. I ended up finally getting around to building a PC, and it ended up with an nForce motherboard, AthlonXP 1800+ CPU, and PC2100 DDR RAM in it. All I did to make sure my case would work is check to make sure the power supple said at least 300 watts. IT's ALL MECHANICAL, there's no reason things like RAM type would have an effect on a case's suitability for a computer.
<strong>In the discussion following the article someone posted a chart of other machines and the power supplys they contain, the only other machines that come close are the IBM pSeries dual and quad Power4 Servers.
[code]do while $upgradefever == TRUE
Print("The new chip IBM says it will describe at the MPF in October is NOT the Power 4."\
"The Power 4 WILL NEVER appear in a Mac desktop unit."\
\
)
if querystatus("Do you understand", No, Yes)
$upgradefever=TRUE
else
$upgradefever=FALSE
endif
/do</pre><hr></blockquote>