When I first saw IBM's chip description, it looked like Steve Job's wish list for the G5. I was sure that Apple and IBM had been working on it for a long time. Considering the impact of this chip on the Mac market, it makes sense to release no information before it is necessary. The Microprocessor Forum needed to publish an agenda. We can only guess how and when the G5 gets into the Mac. It would be nice to see it in all PowerMacs and soon, but it might not happen that way. Maybe a slower ramp up, with the G5 first going into a workstation grade Mac for running Shake and Maya? Addressing those markets that really need the power first makes sense. Why risk a possible parts shortage by doing too much, too soon? I think a G5 Mac will sell well at almost workstation prices. Later, when the process is well oiled and running smoothly, the G5 can work its way down to the PowerMac lineup. This may be much later. Maybe IBM also has a G4 up its sleeve for the Mac. For now, most professional users would be happy to have 2 GHz G4s with a system bus that makes good use of DDR memory.
[ Except for computers that fail, I've never heard of a comuter being dramatically changed after
1)new case design
2)greatly changed design no the inside
to have people buy one computer just introduced and sell another that is better, isn't that just bad marketing?[/QB]<hr></blockquote>
Perhaps the marketing spin on it is that apple needed something new to move the G4s. New case, dual processors, improved bus/DDR etc. They probably need to get as many G4s out the door as possible. Especially if they are going to be intoducing a new chip soon. Dropping the new G5 (Power4?) into this new case might ease the pain slightly. At least the new machines won't look any better.
Although that last bit is generally contrary to Apple's design intelligence, its possible. Personally, I'm going to be optimistic and hope for the IBM chip in a new case, built in bluetooth, optional two button mouse with solid state scroll strip, and easy access Firewire (maybe even Firewire2) ports. Optimistic might be the wrong word.
If IBM is producing Apple version of Power4, it will be avialable on January at the latest. Look at Motorola roadmap, they have embedded G5 already, where the heck is their desktop G5. And they have RAPID I/O already, why not just shove it inside the new G4 at the least? Even if G5 is delivered from Motorola, Apple probably have problems shipping them in quantity. Its not just their SPS inability to deliver, its their management philosophy thinking Apple cannot grow. I am sure if they get really serious in desktop processors, Apple can surely break even 15% of market share. Look at what Steve has done to Apple, making their hardware design an eye popper. Putting Superdrives and movie making function not only for the pros but consumers also. Look at the iApps, they are just delicious, whats that not to like. Even, Maya now runs on G4. He has created a solid platform. Where the fck is Motorola? The margin may be low for desktop compared to embedded market. But the volume opportunity is enormous. I guess Motorola never gives Apple a chance. I hope IBM Power4 cut down version will have all the meat we all waiting for.
<strong>for the record, yes, the Power4 will be the next gen. for the powermac. this has been the plan for over a year now, actually almost 2 years. Friend at IBM in Austin is the source on that one.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Two years and now u mention it? difficult to believe this is. especially with all the insiders that have been here
Reading the posts, one of SJ's remarks in a recent interview came to mind. Paraphrasing, SJ remarked about Apple's future by saying, 'things will not turn up until very early 2003 ... when we'll have options, and we like to have options.'
Anyone remember SJ's wording, and was it only related to OS X???
Could it also be related to IBM's new PPC processor?
Two years and now u mention it? difficult to believe this is. especially with all the insiders that have been here
[ 08-22-2002: Message edited by: O and A ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
O and A,
Just because someone knows something doesn't mean they rush here to blurt it out the second they learn about it... I too have knows about this for quite some time (not two year but for quite a while none the less) I'm sure you wouldn't believe me either but even if I did a core dump and tell you everything I know would that make you believe me any more than you do right now?
I bet the answer is no...
Besides the fact I don't feel the NEED to prove anything to anyone I've also honored my word to not go around blabbing stuff I was told in such an open forum (like AI or any of the rest). I kept my promise and will continue to. Heck I don't know all that much and most of what I do know has already been put up on that Microprocessor Forum page anyway. Yea I might have had the satisfaction of knowing that stuff for a lot longer than most here but it just means I've been WAITING WAY LONGER for these new chips to become a reality.
I for one really hope that two year quote is genuine (because it still might not be) but if it is then maybe that's a sign that the wait might no t be as long as some here think (1 or 1.5 years out).
Fact is till this is official all we can really do here is debate who might be telling the truth and who is yanking our chains and I guess we've been doing a pretty good job of that already...
<strong>Reading the posts, one of SJ's remarks in a recent interview came to mind. Paraphrasing, SJ remarked about Apple's future by saying, 'things will not turn up until very early 2003 ... when we'll have options, and we like to have options.'
Anyone remember SJ's wording, and was it only related to OS X???
Could it also be related to IBM's new PPC processor?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think that part may refer to improving OS X first. OS X is top priority. But the part I really like is where he said the PPC future looks very bright, BETWEEN MOTOROLA AND IBM. He seemed to carefully add that part to include IBM. We should listen more carefully. (I hope no one holds us to exact quotes on this.)
<strong>Reading the posts, one of SJ's remarks in a recent interview came to mind. Paraphrasing, SJ remarked about Apple's future by saying, 'things will not turn up until very early 2003 ... when we'll have options, and we like to have options.'
Anyone remember SJ's wording, and was it only related to OS X???
Could it also be related to IBM's new PPC processor?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually, if I recall correctly, that quote from Steve came at the last finacial meeting, in responce to a query as to if and when we might see OS X running on x86 chips. So neither yes or no was his answer, but the "options" part is suggestive of a chip change, or at least multiple alternnatives. IBM and motorola making Apple chips at the same time? It has been happening for awhile, but an IBM "G5" would be a big step forward for the platform. There is no doubt that slow chip advances have hurt Apple over the last 3 years.
Look, its obvious that something is coming. Those
speed holes bullet hole ridden ass 7 pound eat sink
and overpowered power supply are not there to support the G4. No way.
And yet why roll out that case design now, if it's overkill, when you could just hold it back and release it with the new G5s or whatever you call them?
Also, please remind me when IBM's desktop PPC last beat Motorola's best PPC. What happened to that "will scale very quickly to 1GHz" G3 they came out with so long ago? IBM is a nice option, but they don't have much to back up desktop PPC performance compared to MOT.
<strong>It's not conjecture that IBM is presenting at the MPF, it is conjecture that what they are presenting will go in a Mac.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Given MOT has nothing else to give us for a desktop CPU beyond the G4 we have today (and if someone says the 8500 I'm gonna freak since there is no desktop version) it better be MORE THAN conjecture that Apple is gonna use this CPU or we be in a heap-o-trouble going forward.
<strong>Hey, I've gotten word that I it would be better for me, if I could wait to buy a desktop for 4-6 months because new systems being introduced with a new G5 processor from IBM.
Source was a IBM proceossor designer that I've done some research with. She's never told me anything secret before, so I don't know the realibility, except that she was fairly matter-of-fact about it, and didn't seem like she was hyping something.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, she might be right. Some people have reported that IBM has already has chip samples. Assuming this is true and they don't run into any unexpected problems we could see production volumes in time for a MWSF announcement and an Apple ramp up with deliveries in Feb or March.
This would jive with your source's prediction as well as others which all seem to point to a Feb timeframe.
Well, the PMs have just been updated. Why the new case accomodates a far 'hotter' chip? Because maybe Apple _expected_ to ship better processors by now. So why not produce the cases anyway and bugfix them BEFORE they have to take the real heat?
But before we'll see a new PowerMac, we'll have to see new 'books. A 'usual' time frame would mean that they're appearing in October. Even hotter PowerBooks? The same 7451 chip running at 1000 MHz? I don't think I would actually _want_ a machine that burns my legs (well, my TiBook 500 does that already, but I didn't know before buying).
But whether we'll see a PowerPC 7470, a PowerPC 7500 or a Son of Power4 in the next PowerMacs, we'll see that next year. It's still August.
<strong>These tales of IBM making a chip for Apple makes me happy, what does not is how long we will have to wait. Assuming IBM is apple's next chip maker, the absolute fastest we'll have a new PM is in like 4-6month, and even that would be unprecidented! Except for computers that fail, I've never heard of a comuter being dramatically changed after
1)new case design
2)greatly changed design no the inside
to have people buy one computer just introduced and sell another that is better, isn't that just bad marketing?</strong><hr></blockquote>
You never heard of the "Yikes" machine then?
Just a note.
[code]do while $upgradefever == TRUE
Read(The new chip IBM says it will describe at the MPF in October is NOT the Power 4. The Power 4 WILL NEVER appear in a Mac desktop unit.)
<strong>Look, its obvious that something is coming. Those
speed holes bullet hole ridden ass 7 pound eat sink
and overpowered power supply are not there to support the G4. No way.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually, if you populated a case with two opticals and 4 hard drives, not to mention you are getting two CPUs, you need lotsa cooling and the overpowered power supply? Huh? My 9600MP at home has a 390W ps. More slots, more RAM, more CPUs, more power.
Comments
[ Except for computers that fail, I've never heard of a comuter being dramatically changed after
1)new case design
2)greatly changed design no the inside
to have people buy one computer just introduced and sell another that is better, isn't that just bad marketing?[/QB]<hr></blockquote>
Perhaps the marketing spin on it is that apple needed something new to move the G4s. New case, dual processors, improved bus/DDR etc. They probably need to get as many G4s out the door as possible. Especially if they are going to be intoducing a new chip soon. Dropping the new G5 (Power4?) into this new case might ease the pain slightly. At least the new machines won't look any better.
Although that last bit is generally contrary to Apple's design intelligence, its possible. Personally, I'm going to be optimistic and hope for the IBM chip in a new case, built in bluetooth, optional two button mouse with solid state scroll strip, and easy access Firewire (maybe even Firewire2) ports. Optimistic might be the wrong word.
<strong>for the record, yes, the Power4 will be the next gen. for the powermac. this has been the plan for over a year now, actually almost 2 years. Friend at IBM in Austin is the source on that one.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Two years and now u mention it? difficult to believe this is. especially with all the insiders that have been here
[ 08-22-2002: Message edited by: O and A ]</p>
Anyone remember SJ's wording, and was it only related to OS X???
Could it also be related to IBM's new PPC processor?
<strong>
Two years and now u mention it? difficult to believe this is. especially with all the insiders that have been here
[ 08-22-2002: Message edited by: O and A ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
O and A,
Just because someone knows something doesn't mean they rush here to blurt it out the second they learn about it... I too have knows about this for quite some time (not two year but for quite a while none the less) I'm sure you wouldn't believe me either but even if I did a core dump and tell you everything I know would that make you believe me any more than you do right now?
I bet the answer is no...
Besides the fact I don't feel the NEED to prove anything to anyone I've also honored my word to not go around blabbing stuff I was told in such an open forum (like AI or any of the rest). I kept my promise and will continue to. Heck I don't know all that much and most of what I do know has already been put up on that Microprocessor Forum page anyway. Yea I might have had the satisfaction of knowing that stuff for a lot longer than most here but it just means I've been WAITING WAY LONGER for these new chips to become a reality.
I for one really hope that two year quote is genuine (because it still might not be) but if it is then maybe that's a sign that the wait might no t be as long as some here think (1 or 1.5 years out).
Fact is till this is official all we can really do here is debate who might be telling the truth and who is yanking our chains and I guess we've been doing a pretty good job of that already...
So carry on all...
Dave
[ 08-22-2002: Message edited by: DaveGee ]</p>
<strong>Reading the posts, one of SJ's remarks in a recent interview came to mind. Paraphrasing, SJ remarked about Apple's future by saying, 'things will not turn up until very early 2003 ... when we'll have options, and we like to have options.'
Anyone remember SJ's wording, and was it only related to OS X???
Could it also be related to IBM's new PPC processor?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think that part may refer to improving OS X first. OS X is top priority. But the part I really like is where he said the PPC future looks very bright, BETWEEN MOTOROLA AND IBM. He seemed to carefully add that part to include IBM. We should listen more carefully. (I hope no one holds us to exact quotes on this.)
<strong>Wasnt IBM 750FX(or whatever)anounced at MPF, then 7 months later it was in iBooks?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yep.
<strong>Reading the posts, one of SJ's remarks in a recent interview came to mind. Paraphrasing, SJ remarked about Apple's future by saying, 'things will not turn up until very early 2003 ... when we'll have options, and we like to have options.'
Anyone remember SJ's wording, and was it only related to OS X???
Could it also be related to IBM's new PPC processor?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually, if I recall correctly, that quote from Steve came at the last finacial meeting, in responce to a query as to if and when we might see OS X running on x86 chips. So neither yes or no was his answer, but the "options" part is suggestive of a chip change, or at least multiple alternnatives. IBM and motorola making Apple chips at the same time? It has been happening for awhile, but an IBM "G5" would be a big step forward for the platform. There is no doubt that slow chip advances have hurt Apple over the last 3 years.
Look, its obvious that something is coming. Those
speed holes
bullet hole ridden ass
7 pound eat sink
and
overpowered power supply
are not there to support the G4. No way.
Also, please remind me when IBM's desktop PPC last beat Motorola's best PPC. What happened to that "will scale very quickly to 1GHz" G3 they came out with so long ago? IBM is a nice option, but they don't have much to back up desktop PPC performance compared to MOT.
psuedo DDR
2 opticals
4 HDD's
and Dual CPU's
Those are decent reasons to buy, and the case had to be changed to accomodate them anyway.
<strong>This is not conjecture...</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's not conjecture that IBM is presenting at the MPF, it is conjecture that what they are presenting will go in a Mac.
<strong>It's not conjecture that IBM is presenting at the MPF, it is conjecture that what they are presenting will go in a Mac.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Given MOT has nothing else to give us for a desktop CPU beyond the G4 we have today (and if someone says the 8500 I'm gonna freak since there is no desktop version) it better be MORE THAN conjecture that Apple is gonna use this CPU or we be in a heap-o-trouble going forward.
Dave
<strong>Hey, I've gotten word that I it would be better for me, if I could wait to buy a desktop for 4-6 months because new systems being introduced with a new G5 processor from IBM.
Source was a IBM proceossor designer that I've done some research with. She's never told me anything secret before, so I don't know the realibility, except that she was fairly matter-of-fact about it, and didn't seem like she was hyping something.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, she might be right. Some people have reported that IBM has already has chip samples. Assuming this is true and they don't run into any unexpected problems we could see production volumes in time for a MWSF announcement and an Apple ramp up with deliveries in Feb or March.
This would jive with your source's prediction as well as others which all seem to point to a Feb timeframe.
But before we'll see a new PowerMac, we'll have to see new 'books. A 'usual' time frame would mean that they're appearing in October. Even hotter PowerBooks? The same 7451 chip running at 1000 MHz? I don't think I would actually _want_ a machine that burns my legs (well, my TiBook 500 does that already, but I didn't know before buying).
But whether we'll see a PowerPC 7470, a PowerPC 7500 or a Son of Power4 in the next PowerMacs, we'll see that next year. It's still August.
<strong>These tales of IBM making a chip for Apple makes me happy, what does not is how long we will have to wait. Assuming IBM is apple's next chip maker, the absolute fastest we'll have a new PM is in like 4-6month, and even that would be unprecidented! Except for computers that fail, I've never heard of a comuter being dramatically changed after
1)new case design
2)greatly changed design no the inside
to have people buy one computer just introduced and sell another that is better, isn't that just bad marketing?</strong><hr></blockquote>
You never heard of the "Yikes" machine then?
Just a note.
[code]do while $upgradefever == TRUE
Read(The new chip IBM says it will describe at the MPF in October is NOT the Power 4. The Power 4 WILL NEVER appear in a Mac desktop unit.)
if querystatus("Do you understand", No, Yes)
$upgradefever=TRUE
else
$upgradefever=FALSE
endif
/do</pre><hr></blockquote>
<strong>Look, its obvious that something is coming. Those
speed holes
bullet hole ridden ass
7 pound eat sink
and
overpowered power supply
are not there to support the G4. No way.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually, if you populated a case with two opticals and 4 hard drives, not to mention you are getting two CPUs, you need lotsa cooling and the overpowered power supply? Huh? My 9600MP at home has a 390W ps. More slots, more RAM, more CPUs, more power.
i think yes.