Religious Crisis

Posted:
in General Discussion edited January 2014
My brother recently sent me an email, outlining what he thinks is our family's religious crisis. I sent him a response that blew him and my other brothers away (I hve 4 brothers). Maybe it will make you consider some things?



Here's what I said in response to my brother Nick, who sent me an email that pretty much talked about how our family used to be more closely nit due to being involved with the church. As a family, we got disenfranchised with the priest, the congregation, and the "way of things."




Nick, i do agree that our family used to be much more closely nit because of religion. We were happier, mom and dad were at least. It gave people purpose, it gave people motivation, and it was a good way to keep ourselves in check.



I hardly even pray anymore. I find it sad that I dont, sometimes I think that, "Why do I need religion, I'm governing myself appropriately without it." But then I just feel something deep down that tells me that I'm wrong to feel that way. It's like my soul wont let me completely ignore the fact that there is an inate desire inside of me that seeks spiritual guidance.



Personally, I dont think that participation in church is the end all, soul purification method. I think there are other ways to do that, other ways to be spiritual, and ultimately saved. This world is full of people wandering through life, without a care, not thinking beyond themselves. People rarely, even church goers, take a second to appreciate anything or feel happy. Mom and Dad like to tell me I'm not happy, I think being happy is something we all come in and out of. Just like our spirituality. Personality, spirituality, and attitude are all connected somehow.



I believe in God, I believe in what it was that Jesus did and what it represents, what it means. I do not believe that going to church every sunday will connect me with that meaning, at least not as much as alternative forms of worship. Sitting in a pew is easy, passing the basket, eating the body and blood, and chatting afterwards. That is not spiritual to me, because of the baggage that goes along with it.



Can't we be appreciative for what Jesus did through other means while still making our way up the ladder? Truth be told, no human ever believes they are good enough for heaven, for God's home. We do so much terrible stuff.



We all feel that thing in our stomache, like you did, which is what made you write this in the first place. I think that the best way to find your happiness, your soul, and to show gratitiude for everything we have is through our passions. Yours is probably violin. I would be so fulfilled to be able to play an instrument the way you play violin, because when you are so self fulfilled, everyone else around you gets a little piece of that feeling. Exactly like Jesus, his crucifiction was something only he can understand, but we can all analyze and try to interpret. It is just like real life, continuing the example of violin...we hear you play. I know enough to know that I dont know what it is that you go through to be able to play like that. But I hear the music, I try to fit it into my world and appreciate it the best way I can.



What else is there to do? We all need to approach life with the fervor and attitude that Jesus did in this world. That, to me, is the only real way to keep climbing. It is when we lose sight of the fact that we are doing what we are doing, not just for ourselves, but for everyone's soul, that we fall off the ladder. To stay on the ladder, you keep doing what you do best, realizing it isnt just for you.



The main problem people have in this country is that there is so much excess that it becomes hard to really find ourselves. That is when we become unhappy, and fall. Church may provide that necessary time of reflection, to regrip the rungs...



Maybe I'm way off? I dont know. I'm only 18.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 54
    fellowshipfellowship Posts: 5,038member
    Very thoughtful Messiahtosh,



    I would only add to this that Going to Church is not all that important. Being "spiritual" is really a myth. There is no such thing. What is important in my humble opinion is what Jesus talked about so much. That is to love your neighbor and your enemy. And instead of this "spiritual" word you mention the word is really "Faith" that Jesus talks about.



    Great reply however I must say



    With Respect,



    Fellowship
  • Reply 2 of 54
    groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    To build on what Fellowship said...



    Even for a Christian, do not look at church as the savior, it's a building with people and, in my opinion, can often be a barrier between a person and their own faith.



    Love everyone, yourself and your family included. Understand that life is suffering and do your best to minimize it. Free yourself from unnecessary attachments. Resolve disputes as soon as they arise and do not be afraid to open old wounds to heal them. Communicate.



    Communication is the key to all human relationships.
  • Reply 3 of 54
    billybobskybillybobsky Posts: 1,914member
    I am not a Christian. I am not religious. I went through the traditions of a Jewish upbringing and was dragged tooth and nail (albeit when I do something I do it more or less correctly) to my bar mitzvah out of obligation to my family and not out of some sort of artificial connection to what reading from the old testament actually meant at some long lost point. What it represented to me, and what attending synagogue showed me at the time was that almost* all religions preach the same fundmental philosophy. In Judaism it is attributed to the intellectual "profets". In Christianity, Jesus. ecetera ecetera. No one relgion has the answer because *all* relgions give the same human ethic. Going to Church; believing the words of one person are the same thing to me. These ideas are internal to all of us...



    At the same time, I understand to some degree the human desire to place the inspiration in a person, in a god...







    * There are of course examples where this isn't the case...
  • Reply 4 of 54
    messiahtoshmessiahtosh Posts: 1,754member
    www.oca.org has a lot of theological/philosophical explainations. Pretty interesting stuff.
  • Reply 6 of 54
    messiahtoshmessiahtosh Posts: 1,754member
    Quote:







    Evil's greatest asset is the fact that it cannot be proven as physical. I still do not understand why people wouldnt at least give themselves the benefit of the doubt. Do you want to be getting gang raped by demons in hell for all eternity? I sure as hell dont want that. Amen.



    Then you might say, "the church's greatest asset is the fact that it cant be proven true either, they lure you in by telling you there could be a hell." I just see it as, there could be a heaven.
  • Reply 7 of 54
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by groverat

    To build on what Fellowship said...



    Even for a Christian, do not look at church as the savior, it's a building with people and, in my opinion, can often be a barrier between a person and their own faith.



    Love everyone, yourself and your family included. Understand that life is suffering and do your best to minimize it. Free yourself from unnecessary attachments. Resolve disputes as soon as they arise and do not be afraid to open old wounds to heal them. Communicate.



    Communication is the key to all human relationships.




    Very true, but I would go one step further... anytime someone tells you that they, and they alone, are the one true conduit to understanding the divine, they're more likely to be a blockage. Faith, spirituality, morality - these are all things that, unless generated internally, are meaningless and empty.
  • Reply 8 of 54
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Messiahtosh





    Evil's greatest asset is the fact that it cannot be proven as physical. I still do not understand why people wouldnt at least give themselves the benefit of the doubt. Do you want to be getting gang raped by demons in hell for all eternity? I sure as hell dont want that. Amen.



    Then you might say, "the church's greatest asset is the fact that it cant be proven true either, they lure you in by telling you there could be a hell." I just see it as, there could be a heaven.




    *laugh* that's my Mom's pragmatic view. "What the heck. If it's true, I get brownie points for trying. If it's false, I lose nothing."



    Nice letter to your brother, btw.
  • Reply 9 of 54
    homhom Posts: 1,098member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Messiahtosh





    Evil's greatest asset is the fact that it cannot be proven as physical. I still do not understand why people wouldnt at least give themselves the benefit of the doubt. Do you want to be getting gang raped by demons in hell for all eternity? I sure as hell dont want that. Amen.





    If God punishes me by sending me to hell despite the fact that I lived my life as a good human, but denied his existence, he doesn't deserve my praise.
  • Reply 10 of 54
    Quote:

    Originally posted by HOM

    If God punishes me by sending me to hell despite the fact that I lived my life as a good human, but denied his existence, he doesn't deserve my praise.



    amen brother. i'm guessing if he is so much better than the rest of us he could give a rats ass what we believe, and not get caught up in our petty little human attempts at trying to guess what god wants us to do. live your life, be nice, and call your mother.
  • Reply 11 of 54
    groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    Bringing up Pascal's wager helps nothing, it is an lazy-intellectual "gotcha!" that does nothing but stir contention. I can't imagine God wanting people to worship him because it seems like the least dangerous option.



    "I would that ye were hot or cold", Messiatosh. :-)

    (Revelations 3)



    Church is a social structure, and when a child rejects that structure the child's own parents will often reject the child, sometimes outright, usually in less direct ways. That is dangerous, in my opinion.
  • Reply 12 of 54
    messiahtoshmessiahtosh Posts: 1,754member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by HOM

    If God punishes me by sending me to hell despite the fact that I lived my life as a good human, but denied his existence, he doesn't deserve my praise.



    You see, I think you never have to "accept God" but you ultimately do accept him by living that kind of life. So sure, I dont see what fire and brimstone preachers could say to you about not being "worthy" of heaven. What do they know anyway? Heaven, come on in. haha
  • Reply 13 of 54
    Quote:

    Originally posted by groverat

    To build on what Fellowship said...



    Even for a Christian, do not look at church as the savior, it's a building with people and, in my opinion, can often be a barrier between a person and their own faith.



    Love everyone, yourself and your family included. Understand that life is suffering and do your best to minimize it. Free yourself from unnecessary attachments. Resolve disputes as soon as they arise and do not be afraid to open old wounds to heal them. Communicate.



    Communication is the key to all human relationships.




    does that include us sooners?
  • Reply 14 of 54
    groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    I was talking about human beings, so no, Sooners do not count.
  • Reply 15 of 54
    Quote:

    Originally posted by groverat

    I was talking about human beings, so no, Sooners do not count.



    darn.
  • Reply 16 of 54
    amorphamorph Posts: 7,112member
    Churches are valuable to the extent that they are communities, collective resources you can fall back on, and contributors to the larger community that they're part of, and disseminators of the Good News. But they are not intrinsically valuable. A bad church can do a tremendous amount of damage to a person, and especially to a child. A church, fundamentally, is a human institution with all that implies, good and bad.



    This is why God said he would write his law on the hearts and minds of his faithful, not in the hearts and minds of a select few. But he also loves congregations of people, and it's not hard to see why: When they're good, they're good, and we seem to be wired to prefer them as a rule anyway.
  • Reply 17 of 54
    homhom Posts: 1,098member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Messiahtosh

    You see, I think you never have to "accept God" but you ultimately do accept him by living that kind of life. So sure, I dont see what fire and brimstone preachers could say to you about not being "worthy" of heaven. What do they know anyway? Heaven, come on in. haha



    I reject God by living this lifestyle. I do it because I want the Earth to be a better place when I leave it then how I found it. Not because I expect a reward. I'm not a dog that gets a treat for sitting when told to sit or barking when told to bark.
  • Reply 18 of 54
    Very sensitive, very touching.



    I simultaneously agree and disagree with Fellowship.



    I think that if you think about the things Jesus said, and try and live by them, you'll make a positive impact on this poor planet whether or not you ever go to church.



    To respectfully disagree, I'm not sure that being 'spiritual' really is a myth, and I'm not convinced that it has anything to do with 'faith'. I think that we have a kinship with, and obligations to, everyone alive, but I'm not sure if the existence or absence of a creator should alter that. (It's fine of course to be certain in your own mind, beyond doubt, that there is a god. I don't think that this necessarily means that Muslims or Christians, say, who have this certainty, are 'more spiritual'.)



    Meditating on beautiful things is good for you and can put you in touch with very good stuff. This good stuff, which is bigger than any of us, makes you a better person.



    The devil certainly exists; he's hate and bad taste. Seriously. God of course exists too - he's love and beautiful things, and the feeling of kinship with everyone else alive on the planet. Jesus talked about this a lot. So did the deities of the Hindu pantheon.



    Better stop now.





    Quote:

    Originally posted by Fellowship

    Very thoughtful Messiahtosh,



    I would only add to this that Going to Church is not all that important. Being "spiritual" is really a myth. There is no such thing. What is important in my humble opinion is what Jesus talked about so much. That is to love your neighbor and your enemy. And instead of this "spiritual" word you mention the word is really "Faith" that Jesus talks about.



    Great reply however I must say



    With Respect,



    Fellowship




  • Reply 19 of 54
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah

    Very sensitive, very touching.



    I simultaneously and disagree with Fellowship.



    I think that if you think about the things Jesus said, and try and live by them, you'll make a positive impact on this poor planet whether or not you ever go to church.



    To respectfully disagree, I'm not sure that being 'spiritual' really is a myth, and I'm not convinced that it has anything to do with 'faith'. I think that we have a kinship with, and obligations to, everyone alive, but I'm not sure if the existence or absence of a creator should alter that. (It's fine of course to be certain in your own mind, beyond doubt, that there is a god. I don't think that this necessarily means that Muslims or Christians, say, who have this certainty, are 'more spiritual'.)



    Meditating on beautiful things is good for you and can put you in touch with very good stuff. This good stuff, which is bigger than any of us, makes you a better person.



    The devil certainly exists; he's called hate and bad taste. Seriously. God of course exists too - he's love and beautiful things, and the feeling of kinship with everyone else alive on the planet. Jesus talked about this a lot. So did the deities of the Hindu pantheon.



    Better stop now.




    i love you.
  • Reply 20 of 54
    thoth2thoth2 Posts: 277member
    I'm enjoying this thoughtful discussion. I have nothing to add really, just wanted to send kudos to everyone for this (not that you need my approval).

    Thoth
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