"Actually, you're wrong on one of those assertions..."
I like that. It made me
I've kinda settled back into my 'non-rant' armchair mode on this topic.
It's a .13 die shrink G4? Such a move clearly leaves the G4 some headroom. 1.2 - 1.8 mhz? On an improved architecture. Something like Rapid Io on board memory controller thing. And 'IF' (big 'IF') Apple keep said machines 'dual' then...'not bad' would be my assessment. (Fabbed in a diry cheap lab in Chile? )
For the people who can afford to buy and take a hit on eBay...I'm sure the 'Memory controller' die shrink G4s should be quite an improvement over the current 'bung-gap' machines.
That will take Apple's 'power'Mac range up to the Summer 'GPUL' announcement...shipping October (heh...)
In the meantime? Lemon Bon Bon saves up for not only a 'GPUL' but software: upgrades to Photoshop, Illustrator (and run them on my wife's iBook in the meantime...hey, it's more fun than this Athlon XP...) and then there's Indesign which aint cheap and Vue and Poser 5...etc.
In short, I don't like waiting...but the way ahead seems clearer.
And with the GPUL, I won't mind paying the premium quite as much for a machine with four times the 'general' performance of a G4. And that's before you get into the 'dual' equation! (Make mine a dual GPUL please he said giving Mr. Apple reseller several thousand of his finest muller...)
In terms of '64 bit'...maybe x86 and AMD maybe get there first...but I think the GPUL will allow Apple to arrive in style...probably just a few months behind AMD's Hammer at their current rate of progress. I think it will be a great equalizer in the 'mhz' wars. In the GPUL, it seems this 'improbable' chip will shut up mhz whiners and performance and bandwidth whiners alike...well...maybe.
Yeah, Moki...we know it aint size that's important...but what you do with it... (groan...)
Lemon Bon Bon
(As regards 'exact' time frame? I've already presumptiously started my own 12 month count down from Microprocessor forum, bypassing actual announcement at New York 2003 to actual shipping next October...so...twelve months and counting...hey...it'll come sooner than the next Star Wars movie!!!)
It's a .13 die shrink G4? Such a move clearly leaves the G4 some headroom. 1.2 - 1.8 mhz? On an improved architecture. Something like Rapid Io on board memory controller thing. And 'IF' (big 'IF') Apple keep said machines 'dual' then...'not bad' would be my assessment. (Fabbed in a diry cheap lab in Chile? )
For the people who can afford to buy and take a hit on eBay...I'm sure the 'Memory controller' die shrink G4s should be quite an improvement over the current 'bung-gap' machines.
That will take Apple's 'power'Mac range up to the Summer 'GPUL' announcement...shipping October (heh...)
[/QB]<hr></blockquote>
I think the next G4, the one in the Powermac that comes before the GPUL, might be based on even smaller circuitry than you speculate. From the Cnet article I keep quoting:
Motorola asserts that its partnership with two other chipmakers will probably be the first to produce a new generation of semiconductors, beating Intel by at least six months.
Earlier this week, Motorola, STMicroelectronics and Philips jointly unveiled a design for chips based on 90-nanometer circuitry, compared with the current 130-nanometer standard. Thinner circuitry makes each separate chip cheaper to produce, faster and more energy-efficient.
Chris Belden, vice president of Motorola's chip products sector, said the alliance would start production of a high-performance version of the 90-nanometer chips by the fourth quarter of this year and a lower-performing version in the third quarter of 2003.
Remember Steve said he was pretty happy with the future offerings from both Motorola and IBM.
Good thing MWSF is next year then, eh?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I forgot where, but I remember seeing rumors that Apple had a 64-bit processor in test machines at various places (Pixar was one, I believe) in early 2002. If that was the case, and if GPUL was that chip, then MWSF is not out of the question.
I think the next G4, the one in the Powermac that comes before the GPUL, might be based on even smaller circuitry than you speculate. From the Cnet article I keep quoting:
Motorola asserts that its partnership with two other chipmakers will probably be the first to produce a new generation of semiconductors, beating Intel by at least six months.
Earlier this week, Motorola, STMicroelectronics and Philips jointly unveiled a design for chips based on 90-nanometer circuitry, compared with the current 130-nanometer standard. Thinner circuitry makes each separate chip cheaper to produce, faster and more energy-efficient.
Chris Belden, vice president of Motorola's chip products sector, said the alliance would start production of a high-performance version of the 90-nanometer chips by the fourth quarter of this year and a lower-performing version in the third quarter of 2003.
Remember Steve said he was pretty happy with the future offerings from both Motorola and IBM.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Motorola to reach 0.09-microns before the rest of the industry? That may be their plan, but they're destined to fall behind schedule and fail. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
From memory I can't remember if Athlons are 12-way superscalar or not (I have a hunch they aren't unless it changed lately) but it doesn't really matter. They don't dispatch as many instructions per cycle as the IBM chip.
I forgot where, but I remember seeing rumors that Apple had a 64-bit processor in test machines at various places (Pixar was one, I believe) in early 2002. If that was the case, and if GPUL was that chip, then MWSF is not out of the question.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think this chip has been in development for two years or more, with Apple and IBM working on the design details together. I heard prototypes were being tested in April, which is highly possible. If all went well and the layout is complete, the next hurdle is to get chip manufacturing running smoothly. Then, another delay for Apple to start up Mac production. Maybe we could get this early in 2003, but more likely a little later in 2003. I am fairly sure the hardware design is completed or nearly so.
Motorola to reach 0.09-microns before the rest of the industry? That may be their plan, but they're destined to fall behind schedule and fail. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Just because the G4 hasn't moved to a 0.13 µm process it doesn't mean Motorola is behind. A substantial amount of Motorola's chips are produced using a 0.13µm process already and moved to it at a time competitive with the rest of the industry.
Before you complain about the G4 not having moved keep in mind the IBM also hasn't released the POWER4 produced on a 0.13µm process yet.
Point is just because other chips are being produced on a 0.13µm or 0.09µm process it doesn't mean the chip applicable to us will be.
Hey moki i`m from roch-cha-cha too, thats why i got confused when i thought you worked for Apple. The only thing Apple around here is the Applestore in buffalo. Did you go to the jag release party?
Just because the G4 hasn't moved to a 0.13 µm process it doesn't mean Motorola is behind. A substantial amount of Motorola's chips are produced using a 0.13µm process already and moved to it at a time competitive with the rest of the industry.
Before you complain about the G4 not having moved keep in mind the IBM also hasn't released the POWER4 produced on a 0.13µm process yet.
Point is just because other chips are being produced on a 0.13µm or 0.09µm process it doesn't mean the chip applicable to us will be.
That is a very overly optimistic timeframe.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Eh, why?
If they've been sampling for more than 6 mos now, what's to stop production ramp up by the beginning of next year with product announcement at MWSF and volume shipping by Feb?
Apple already has a new DDR capable chipset, so there really should be no reason for a delay there. They don't even have to rewrite the OS, it can run in 32 bit mode with patched address space (just like now). And even if they did, they'd have had samples to work with and could have 6 mos + into it with another 3 before MWSF.
How tough could it be?
No seriously, though, what would be the delay? Why is the MWSF time frame optimistic (much less, very optimistic)? It doesn't take a year to go from samples to production (unless something went horribly wrong, and they wouldn't be announcing it at MPF if it had, I should think).
If they've been sampling for more than 6 mos now, what's to stop production ramp up by the beginning of next year with product announcement at MWSF and volume shipping by Feb? . . .
</strong><hr></blockquote>
How do you know they have been sampling production output? If true, you could be right about the date. More likely they had good test prototypes six months ago, and production may or may not have started.
Come on. Give moki a break. He's a Mac developer, and if he's not under a NDA, he's at least smart enough not to bite the hand that feeds him.
He's said enough already.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Why don't you give ME a break? All I did was ask a question. If Moki doesn't want to answer it, then he won't. Easy. He doesn't need you to be his little bitch bulldog.
Comments
I like that. It made me
I've kinda settled back into my 'non-rant' armchair mode on this topic.
It's a .13 die shrink G4? Such a move clearly leaves the G4 some headroom. 1.2 - 1.8 mhz? On an improved architecture. Something like Rapid Io on board memory controller thing. And 'IF' (big 'IF') Apple keep said machines 'dual' then...'not bad' would be my assessment. (Fabbed in a diry cheap lab in Chile?
For the people who can afford to buy and take a hit on eBay...I'm sure the 'Memory controller' die shrink G4s should be quite an improvement over the current 'bung-gap' machines.
That will take Apple's 'power'Mac range up to the Summer 'GPUL' announcement...shipping October (heh...)
In the meantime? Lemon Bon Bon saves up for not only a 'GPUL' but software: upgrades to Photoshop, Illustrator (and run them on my wife's iBook in the meantime...hey, it's more fun than this Athlon XP...) and then there's Indesign which aint cheap and Vue and Poser 5...etc.
In short, I don't like waiting...but the way ahead seems clearer.
And with the GPUL, I won't mind paying the premium quite as much for a machine with four times the 'general' performance of a G4. And that's before you get into the 'dual' equation! (Make mine a dual GPUL please he said giving Mr. Apple reseller several thousand of his finest muller...)
In terms of '64 bit'...maybe x86 and AMD maybe get there first...but I think the GPUL will allow Apple to arrive in style...probably just a few months behind AMD's Hammer at their current rate of progress. I think it will be a great equalizer in the 'mhz' wars. In the GPUL, it seems this 'improbable' chip will shut up mhz whiners and performance and bandwidth whiners alike...well...maybe.
Yeah, Moki...we know it aint size that's important...but what you do with it... (groan...)
Lemon Bon Bon
(As regards 'exact' time frame? I've already presumptiously started my own 12 month count down from Microprocessor forum, bypassing actual announcement at New York 2003 to actual shipping next October...so...twelve months and counting...hey...it'll come sooner than the next Star Wars movie!!!)
[ 10-10-2002: Message edited by: Lemon Bon Bon ]</p>
<strong>In Australia (possibly elsewhere), it's known as "dog-whistling".</strong><hr></blockquote>
No, in England that's Mariah Carey singing.
<strong>
That's definitely wrong. I've said a good bit (mentioned GP-UL months ago), and I know quite a bit more than I've said.
Don't be so naive; it isn't about the size of your company, it is who you know.
And since Ambrosia has been a developer in the Mac community for a very long time, I would imagine that Moki knows quite a few people at Apple....
It's a .13 die shrink G4? Such a move clearly leaves the G4 some headroom. 1.2 - 1.8 mhz? On an improved architecture. Something like Rapid Io on board memory controller thing. And 'IF' (big 'IF') Apple keep said machines 'dual' then...'not bad' would be my assessment. (Fabbed in a diry cheap lab in Chile?
For the people who can afford to buy and take a hit on eBay...I'm sure the 'Memory controller' die shrink G4s should be quite an improvement over the current 'bung-gap' machines.
That will take Apple's 'power'Mac range up to the Summer 'GPUL' announcement...shipping October (heh...)
[/QB]<hr></blockquote>
I think the next G4, the one in the Powermac that comes before the GPUL, might be based on even smaller circuitry than you speculate. From the Cnet article I keep quoting:
Motorola asserts that its partnership with two other chipmakers will probably be the first to produce a new generation of semiconductors, beating Intel by at least six months.
Earlier this week, Motorola, STMicroelectronics and Philips jointly unveiled a design for chips based on 90-nanometer circuitry, compared with the current 130-nanometer standard. Thinner circuitry makes each separate chip cheaper to produce, faster and more energy-efficient.
Chris Belden, vice president of Motorola's chip products sector, said the alliance would start production of a high-performance version of the 90-nanometer chips by the fourth quarter of this year and a lower-performing version in the third quarter of 2003.
Remember Steve said he was pretty happy with the future offerings from both Motorola and IBM.
<strong>
So tell us this: When can we expect the GPUL in a Powermac?
If it's going to be sooner than fall 2003, give a <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
If it's going to be sooner than MWNY03, give a <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" /> <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
Come on. Give moki a break. He's a Mac developer, and if he's not under a NDA, he's at least smart enough not to bite the hand that feeds him.
He's said enough already.
<strong>
I never said the chip was irrelevant to Mac users at all; but you are not going to see them in Macs this year.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Good thing MWSF is next year then, eh?
<strong>
Good thing MWSF is next year then, eh?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I forgot where, but I remember seeing rumors that Apple had a 64-bit processor in test machines at various places (Pixar was one, I believe) in early 2002. If that was the case, and if GPUL was that chip, then MWSF is not out of the question.
<strong>
I think the next G4, the one in the Powermac that comes before the GPUL, might be based on even smaller circuitry than you speculate. From the Cnet article I keep quoting:
Motorola asserts that its partnership with two other chipmakers will probably be the first to produce a new generation of semiconductors, beating Intel by at least six months.
Earlier this week, Motorola, STMicroelectronics and Philips jointly unveiled a design for chips based on 90-nanometer circuitry, compared with the current 130-nanometer standard. Thinner circuitry makes each separate chip cheaper to produce, faster and more energy-efficient.
Chris Belden, vice president of Motorola's chip products sector, said the alliance would start production of a high-performance version of the 90-nanometer chips by the fourth quarter of this year and a lower-performing version in the third quarter of 2003.
Remember Steve said he was pretty happy with the future offerings from both Motorola and IBM.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Motorola to reach 0.09-microns before the rest of the industry? That may be their plan, but they're destined to fall behind schedule and fail. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
From memory I can't remember if Athlons are 12-way superscalar or not (I have a hunch they aren't unless it changed lately) but it doesn't really matter. They don't dispatch as many instructions per cycle as the IBM chip.
<hr></blockquote>
Athlon is 9-way superscalar.
<strong>
I forgot where, but I remember seeing rumors that Apple had a 64-bit processor in test machines at various places (Pixar was one, I believe) in early 2002. If that was the case, and if GPUL was that chip, then MWSF is not out of the question.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think this chip has been in development for two years or more, with Apple and IBM working on the design details together. I heard prototypes were being tested in April, which is highly possible. If all went well and the layout is complete, the next hurdle is to get chip manufacturing running smoothly. Then, another delay for Apple to start up Mac production. Maybe we could get this early in 2003, but more likely a little later in 2003. I am fairly sure the hardware design is completed or nearly so.
<strong>
Motorola to reach 0.09-microns before the rest of the industry? That may be their plan, but they're destined to fall behind schedule and fail. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Just because the G4 hasn't moved to a 0.13 µm process it doesn't mean Motorola is behind. A substantial amount of Motorola's chips are produced using a 0.13µm process already and moved to it at a time competitive with the rest of the industry.
Before you complain about the G4 not having moved keep in mind the IBM also hasn't released the POWER4 produced on a 0.13µm process yet.
Point is just because other chips are being produced on a 0.13µm or 0.09µm process it doesn't mean the chip applicable to us will be.
[ 10-10-2002: Message edited by: Telomar ]</p>
<strong>
Good thing MWSF is next year then, eh?</strong><hr></blockquote>
That is a very overly optimistic timeframe.
Hey moki i`m from roch-cha-cha too, thats why i got confused when i thought you worked for Apple. The only thing Apple around here is the Applestore in buffalo. Did you go to the jag release party?
[ 10-10-2002: Message edited by: Mount_my_floppy ]</p>
<strong>
Just because the G4 hasn't moved to a 0.13 µm process it doesn't mean Motorola is behind. A substantial amount of Motorola's chips are produced using a 0.13µm process already and moved to it at a time competitive with the rest of the industry.
Before you complain about the G4 not having moved keep in mind the IBM also hasn't released the POWER4 produced on a 0.13µm process yet.
Point is just because other chips are being produced on a 0.13µm or 0.09µm process it doesn't mean the chip applicable to us will be.
[ 10-10-2002: Message edited by: Telomar ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
they're going to skip directly to 9nm.
That is a very overly optimistic timeframe.<hr></blockquote>
Rats.
Hope, however, springs eternal.
Mandricard
AppleOutsider
<strong>
Rats.
Hope, however, springs eternal.
Mandricard
AppleOutsider</strong><hr></blockquote>
They do but not for us, next fall is more like it.
<strong>
That is a very overly optimistic timeframe.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Eh, why?
If they've been sampling for more than 6 mos now, what's to stop production ramp up by the beginning of next year with product announcement at MWSF and volume shipping by Feb?
Apple already has a new DDR capable chipset, so there really should be no reason for a delay there. They don't even have to rewrite the OS, it can run in 32 bit mode with patched address space (just like now). And even if they did, they'd have had samples to work with and could have 6 mos + into it with another 3 before MWSF.
How tough could it be?
No seriously, though, what would be the delay? Why is the MWSF time frame optimistic (much less, very optimistic)? It doesn't take a year to go from samples to production (unless something went horribly wrong, and they wouldn't be announcing it at MPF if it had, I should think).
<strong>
If they've been sampling for more than 6 mos now, what's to stop production ramp up by the beginning of next year with product announcement at MWSF and volume shipping by Feb? . . .
</strong><hr></blockquote>
How do you know they have been sampling production output? If true, you could be right about the date. More likely they had good test prototypes six months ago, and production may or may not have started.
<strong>
Come on. Give moki a break. He's a Mac developer, and if he's not under a NDA, he's at least smart enough not to bite the hand that feeds him.
He's said enough already.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Why don't you give ME a break? All I did was ask a question. If Moki doesn't want to answer it, then he won't. Easy. He doesn't need you to be his little bitch bulldog.
[ 10-10-2002: Message edited by: Junkyard Dawg ]</p>