They have target shipping dates for hardware and software, but if you think these dates are generally reached, well, I have a bridge to sell you... </strong><hr></blockquote>
Ooh I always wanted my very own bridge
More on topic though do you know what dates they are currently targetting?
Trust moki on the potential for deadlines to slip. I spent a long time in engineering and as much as you love to give dates (and as much as management wants you to give set dates) it can be incredibly hard to keep to them sometimes (I can remember many weeks living on 3 hours of sleep a night to complete tasks on time). Little things can pop up at the last minute and destroy your plans and chances of meeting deadlines.
Then management starts to breathe down your neck because the company is losing money and shareholders are breathing down their necks. Next you are throwing together a half-assed job that explodes and costs them even more money just because nobody would push the deadline back a month.
Engineering is a fun job
A big part of engineering project management can be a question of when is an idea not worth investing in anymore. Sometimes you can keep throwing money at a problem and pushing back deadlines and still get nowhere and there is a need to decide when is the necessary investment exceeding any possible returns. I frequently wonder how often these decisions have been occurring within Apple.
Please don’t give Moki a hard time. That fellow is responsible for Snapz Pro! He’s also responsible for some of the coolest games that have ever run on Mac OS and has a bitchin’ message board of his own.
Sincerely,
Jaddie</strong><hr></blockquote>
Agreed! Please please please, don't chase moki away. And besides, deimos and snapz ship with tons of machines factory direct from apple...
Sorry, but I was out for a couple of days. This goes back to page 2.
[quote]Originally posted by Rhumgod:
<strong>
Yummy in fact considering that Apple's 27th anniversary is April 1, 2003. [said regarding the possibility of an April release date to the GPUL powered Mac] </strong><hr></blockquote>And just guess what day April 1, 2003 falls on . . . a *TUESDAY*!
<strong>I expect you'll see GP-UL based Macs shipping next summer or fall... it is possible that it will ship before that window, but I find it very unlikely. If it slips too far past fall, well, Apple is in deep shit.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ok then. I'm being optimistic, you're being pessimistic.
I still say the new machines could be announced at MWSF and ship in the February-March timeframe.
This assumes that:
Apple has had samples for sometime.
IBM will deliver production level quantities in 1q '03.
Production versions of the GPUL do not differ significantly from the samples provided Apple.
Hey it could happen. Remember, IBM runs a somewhat tighter ship than Moto. They're more likely to set realistic target dates.
<strong>Good point. Apple likely needs a custom chip between the GPUL and Apple PI.</strong><hr></blockquote>
???
Apple PI is supposed to be a point-to-point switched fabric. There's two contenders that we know about, Hypertransport and RapidIO. Both of them match up pretty well with the where one would expect 'Apple PI' to be. Heck, the RapidIO people are shipping 'RapidIO interfaces' that are entirely Field-Programmable Gate Arrays. That is, the interfaces can be changed on the fly. (Very carefully I'd assume :0)
Both Mot & IBM have RapidIO steering committee memberships. Both have 'RapidIO' stamped on their processor roadmaps. AMD & nVidia are in the HyperTransport camp, and bridging between HT & RIO is supposed to be eminently doable.
Neither of those two would require much in the way of 'custom chips'. Even if PI is a mild variant of RapidIO as opposed to just another name for the same thing. Or both.
The specifications of a new technology are written before any products are developed.
Eg PowerPC 64 was written at the same time as PowerPC 32, but 64-bit PPCs didn't appear until the Power3 some years later.
Barto</strong><hr></blockquote>
What I meant was how would they test the bus if they didn't already have prior work done on a prototype bridge chip. They must have something in silicon to even test it out even if it may not support MacOS at the moment.
Surfing the web and football. Nothing better on a Sunday.
For those too lazy for the link or if they pull it:
IBM server chip seen slimmed down for Apple Macs
Reuters, 10.13.02, 3:49 PM ET
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(TRANSMISSION EMBARGO UNTIL 12:01 am EDT/0401 GMT)
ARMONK, N.Y. (Reuters) - International Business Machines Corp. Monday announced a microchip for personal computers that will crunch data in chunks twice as big as the current standard and is expected by industry watchers to be used by Apple Computer Inc.
Apple was not available to comment, and IBM declined to comment on which PC makers would use the chip, but its plans would mark a change for the industry, which has emphasized the importance of the speed of a chip rather than its ability to handle heavy workloads.
IBM said its new PowerPC chip would go into production late next year and process 64 bits of data at a time at 1.8 Gigahertz, or 1.8 billion cycles per second.
The microchip is the brain of a computer, although personal computer chips now come only in 32-bit flavors, which are tuned to do light workloads fast but cannot handle heavy duty server chores.
Chekib Akrout, vice president of IBM microprocessor development, said big databases and the Internet challenged PCs: "This is the time to introduce a 64-bit machine capable of being used on a desktop," he said in a telephone interview.
An industry source said Cupertino, California-based Apple would use the chip in its Macintosh computers.
That could catapult Apple, long dogged by the belief its chips are slower than those produced by Intel Corp., to the technological head of the class and put to rest speculation it was considering moving soon to the Intel platform.
The fastest of the current generation of PowerPC chips in Macintosh computers runs at 1.25 Gigahertz, while the top Intel Pentium is 2.8 Gigahertz. Apple says its machines are already more efficient than Intel-based ones.
Advanced Micro Devices Inc., the main competitor to Intel, is also developing a 64-bit chip code-named Hammer that is expected early next year, although it is planned primarily for servers rather than personal computers.
SERVER LITE
IBM said the new PowerPC 970 microchip is a "lite" version of its Power4 chip, which it launched last fall in its sophisticated computer server, code-named "Regatta."
The PowerPC can run 32-bit applications as well as 64-bit ones and is tuned for graphics, like some Intel chips, IBM said. However, it is not designed to run programs written for Intel chips.
The PowerPC has the same energy-saving attributes as the Power4 but uses only one central processing unit, not two.
The chip will be available in the second half of 2003 and be built in IBM's East Fishkill, New York, chip plant, a new facility that is currently doing test-runs and aims to ramp up into production on other chips later this year.
One analyst said the chip's attributes mean it would work well in the professional publishing sector, for high-end graphics and other media-intense tasks.
"This processor would be a great processor for a Macintosh," said Tom Halfhill, an analyst with San Jose, California-based In-Stat/MDR.
IBM, the world's largest computer company, has seen revenue from its microelectronics division dwindle in recent quarters as the semiconductor sector has been hit by a sharp downturn in demand. It has restructured the unit, selling off some assets.
IBM announced earlier this week more details on its new microelectronics design unit, where it will design chips and other electronics for customers, including Sony Corp.
Comments
<strong>
They have target shipping dates for hardware and software, but if you think these dates are generally reached, well, I have a bridge to sell you... </strong><hr></blockquote>
Ooh I always wanted my very own bridge
More on topic though do you know what dates they are currently targetting?
Trust moki on the potential for deadlines to slip. I spent a long time in engineering and as much as you love to give dates (and as much as management wants you to give set dates) it can be incredibly hard to keep to them sometimes (I can remember many weeks living on 3 hours of sleep a night to complete tasks on time). Little things can pop up at the last minute and destroy your plans and chances of meeting deadlines.
Then management starts to breathe down your neck because the company is losing money and shareholders are breathing down their necks. Next you are throwing together a half-assed job that explodes and costs them even more money just because nobody would push the deadline back a month.
Engineering is a fun job
A big part of engineering project management can be a question of when is an idea not worth investing in anymore. Sometimes you can keep throwing money at a problem and pushing back deadlines and still get nowhere and there is a need to decide when is the necessary investment exceeding any possible returns. I frequently wonder how often these decisions have been occurring within Apple.
[ 10-12-2002: Message edited by: Telomar ]</p>
The GPUL team was based here in NC, in Research Triangle Park.
They were shipped off to the new fab facility in NY... in late July.
Make of that timing what you will.
<strong>Just to add fuel to the rumor fire...
The GPUL team was based here in NC, in Research Triangle Park.
They were shipped off to the new fab facility in NY... in late July.
Make of that timing what you will.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I concur. See my earlier posts in other threads for specific information.
PS - I knew that taking a little quote from Moki out of context could produce a great thread!
<strong>
Dear Moogs & Friends
Please don’t give Moki a hard time. That fellow is responsible for Snapz Pro! He’s also responsible for some of the coolest games that have ever run on Mac OS and has a bitchin’ message board of his own.
Sincerely,
Jaddie</strong><hr></blockquote>
Agreed! Please please please, don't chase moki away. And besides, deimos and snapz ship with tons of machines factory direct from apple...
<strong>Just to add fuel to the rumor fire...
The GPUL team was based here in NC, in Research Triangle Park.
They were shipped off to the new fab facility in NY... in late July.
Make of that timing what you will.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I expect that is largely because the NY site has an area dedicated to designing new chips. Quite probably just better facilities for them.
[quote]Originally posted by Rhumgod:
<strong>
Yummy in fact considering that Apple's 27th anniversary is April 1, 2003. [said regarding the possibility of an April release date to the GPUL powered Mac] </strong><hr></blockquote>And just guess what day April 1, 2003 falls on . . . a *TUESDAY*!
<strong>I expect you'll see GP-UL based Macs shipping next summer or fall... it is possible that it will ship before that window, but I find it very unlikely. If it slips too far past fall, well, Apple is in deep shit.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ok then. I'm being optimistic, you're being pessimistic.
I still say the new machines could be announced at MWSF and ship in the February-March timeframe.
This assumes that:
Apple has had samples for sometime.
IBM will deliver production level quantities in 1q '03.
Production versions of the GPUL do not differ significantly from the samples provided Apple.
Hey it could happen. Remember, IBM runs a somewhat tighter ship than Moto. They're more likely to set realistic target dates.
<strong>
Who says Apple has its MB and controllers together?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Good point. Apple likely needs a custom chip between the GPUL and Apple PI. They may
not finish the design of that chip until they have a good version of the processor.
Using a new bus, there is likely a lot of final design cleanup. I wonder when the
GPUL became/becomes final enough? I sure hope we get a lot of details on Tuesday.
[ 10-12-2002: Message edited by: snoopy ]</p>
You can bet your ass that it will be Apple's northbridge that's finished first, not IBM's CPU.
Barto
<strong>And how does Apple specify a bus but not have most of the bridge work done?</strong><hr></blockquote>
The specifications of a new technology are written before any products are developed.
Eg PowerPC 64 was written at the same time as PowerPC 32, but 64-bit PPCs didn't appear until the Power3 some years later.
Barto
<strong>Good point. Apple likely needs a custom chip between the GPUL and Apple PI.</strong><hr></blockquote>
???
Apple PI is supposed to be a point-to-point switched fabric. There's two contenders that we know about, Hypertransport and RapidIO. Both of them match up pretty well with the where one would expect 'Apple PI' to be. Heck, the RapidIO people are shipping 'RapidIO interfaces' that are entirely Field-Programmable Gate Arrays. That is, the interfaces can be changed on the fly. (Very carefully I'd assume :0)
Both Mot & IBM have RapidIO steering committee memberships. Both have 'RapidIO' stamped on their processor roadmaps. AMD & nVidia are in the HyperTransport camp, and bridging between HT & RIO is supposed to be eminently doable.
Neither of those two would require much in the way of 'custom chips'. Even if PI is a mild variant of RapidIO as opposed to just another name for the same thing. Or both.
<strong>
The specifications of a new technology are written before any products are developed.
Eg PowerPC 64 was written at the same time as PowerPC 32, but 64-bit PPCs didn't appear until the Power3 some years later.
Barto</strong><hr></blockquote>
What I meant was how would they test the bus if they didn't already have prior work done on a prototype bridge chip. They must have something in silicon to even test it out even if it may not support MacOS at the moment.
<a href="http://www.forbes.com/technology/newswire/2002/10/13/rtr749520.html" target="_blank">Forbes link</a>
<strong>Let the fun begin:
<a href="http://www.forbes.com/technology/newswire/2002/10/13/rtr749520.html" target="_blank">Forbes link</a></strong><hr></blockquote>
Great link. PowerPC 970, then? Starting at 1.8 GHz..
For those too lazy for the link or if they pull it:
IBM server chip seen slimmed down for Apple Macs
Reuters, 10.13.02, 3:49 PM ET
ADVERTISEMENT
E-Mail Alerts
Companies
AAPL INTC
AMD
Enter E-Mail Address:
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(TRANSMISSION EMBARGO UNTIL 12:01 am EDT/0401 GMT)
ARMONK, N.Y. (Reuters) - International Business Machines Corp. Monday announced a microchip for personal computers that will crunch data in chunks twice as big as the current standard and is expected by industry watchers to be used by Apple Computer Inc.
Apple was not available to comment, and IBM declined to comment on which PC makers would use the chip, but its plans would mark a change for the industry, which has emphasized the importance of the speed of a chip rather than its ability to handle heavy workloads.
IBM said its new PowerPC chip would go into production late next year and process 64 bits of data at a time at 1.8 Gigahertz, or 1.8 billion cycles per second.
The microchip is the brain of a computer, although personal computer chips now come only in 32-bit flavors, which are tuned to do light workloads fast but cannot handle heavy duty server chores.
Chekib Akrout, vice president of IBM microprocessor development, said big databases and the Internet challenged PCs: "This is the time to introduce a 64-bit machine capable of being used on a desktop," he said in a telephone interview.
An industry source said Cupertino, California-based Apple would use the chip in its Macintosh computers.
That could catapult Apple, long dogged by the belief its chips are slower than those produced by Intel Corp., to the technological head of the class and put to rest speculation it was considering moving soon to the Intel platform.
The fastest of the current generation of PowerPC chips in Macintosh computers runs at 1.25 Gigahertz, while the top Intel Pentium is 2.8 Gigahertz. Apple says its machines are already more efficient than Intel-based ones.
Advanced Micro Devices Inc., the main competitor to Intel, is also developing a 64-bit chip code-named Hammer that is expected early next year, although it is planned primarily for servers rather than personal computers.
SERVER LITE
IBM said the new PowerPC 970 microchip is a "lite" version of its Power4 chip, which it launched last fall in its sophisticated computer server, code-named "Regatta."
The PowerPC can run 32-bit applications as well as 64-bit ones and is tuned for graphics, like some Intel chips, IBM said. However, it is not designed to run programs written for Intel chips.
The PowerPC has the same energy-saving attributes as the Power4 but uses only one central processing unit, not two.
The chip will be available in the second half of 2003 and be built in IBM's East Fishkill, New York, chip plant, a new facility that is currently doing test-runs and aims to ramp up into production on other chips later this year.
One analyst said the chip's attributes mean it would work well in the professional publishing sector, for high-end graphics and other media-intense tasks.
"This processor would be a great processor for a Macintosh," said Tom Halfhill, an analyst with San Jose, California-based In-Stat/MDR.
IBM, the world's largest computer company, has seen revenue from its microelectronics division dwindle in recent quarters as the semiconductor sector has been hit by a sharp downturn in demand. It has restructured the unit, selling off some assets.
IBM announced earlier this week more details on its new microelectronics design unit, where it will design chips and other electronics for customers, including Sony Corp.