Why aren't the G5s selling?

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  • Reply 21 of 32
    jadejade Posts: 379member
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Amorph

    Oh, good, this is exactly the sort of post I was looking for in another thread. I was wondering about the plunge in sales to Japan. Thanks.







    OK, question: Are AIOs completely out of the running here, despite the fact that they're space efficient? Obviously they are on the PC side, but that's because PC AIOs suck. I don't consider them relevant to the question. But sticking with Apple, and being mindful of the fact that a notebook is an AIO, why would a Japanese consumer prefer a minitower to a desktop AIO?

    [quote]



    Even the fairly cute and powerful Sony AIOs don't really sell well...and sony has many of them for the Japanese market. Maybe it is the expandability factor. The micro towere still offer good expandability and you can shove it on the floor...and tack your LCD to the wall and have a very cool set up. Add some wireless speakers and a TV/LCD you will have a killer entertainment center set up. I bet the TV factor also plays a huge role. Why have a bulky imac/emac and a TV...when you can get a computer with a TV-tuner card and nice screen and cover all of the bases.





    Quote:

    Ouch. OK, something to work on. Is this in terms of brightness? Contrast ratio? Color fidelity? Viewable angle? All of the above? Per the conference call, LCD prices are down, so Apple has some room to maneuver here.



    I'll turn the question around: Who has the best displays? Is it because of a proprietary technology? Does anyone else license that technology?



    Amorph, do you live near a Best Buy, check out the screens on the Sony notebooks, Sharp aquos' line of LCDs and TVs, and some Fujitsu laptops. They all have nifty screen tech that sony calls x-brite. The viewing angle is superior, and they have a clear coating that makes text and pictures appear much brighter. Really it is great stuff. Those are the top end screens in the notebooks. Otherwise, look at the emachine notebooks, their screen is brighter than the powerbook screen. And sharper. And these are th budget guys, Apple LCDs are getting creamed on the notebook side.



    Quote:

    Any idea as to why Bluetooth is a non-starter there? BTW, you can use iSync with USB and FireWire as well...



    Japan's phones use CDMA correct, like most of Asia. The bluetooth phones are mostly made by the European handset makers and are on the GSM network only. So Japanese cell phones are incompatible with the vast majority of bluetooth phones (There is only one CDMA bluetooth phone that I know... one made by sony ericsson)



    Digital hub is much less important in Japan than here, because the phone is the hub. Cameraphones are hugely popular, and home internet access is more rare...phones are used for internet, chatting and email. Japanese customers use their computers in vastly different ways than americans and europeans.



    Quote:

    More directly, could it be that the PowerBook 12" is a bit too pudgy and a bit too weak-screened to take off like it should? I imagine that a thinner, sharper PB 12" would fly off the shelves in Japan.



    I guess the key benefits aren't that important...those ultra protables sell very well in japan..even the ones with the 5" screens...maybe it is too big, or maybe it doesn't do enough.....but it is probablly more related to price/quality compared with the competition



    (lower quality screen, maybe a smaller hard drive and fairly expensive pricing.)
  • Reply 22 of 32
    beigeuserbeigeuser Posts: 371member
    Thanks for all your replies. It's nice to know that some people care.



    Let me start by answering some questions.



    To Amorph:



    AIO's don't seem to be popular. Every brand seems to have at least one AIO but most desktops are microtowers with more expandability. I guess the traditional AIO crowd now prefers a notebook.



    Apple LCD's (with the exception of the 20") are visibly inferior to Fujitsu & Hitachi screens in terms of brightness, viewing angle, contrast angle, and color fidelity. The Japan market also seems to overwhelmingly prefer a glossy-coated screen. Almost all LCDs are glossy. Maybe because they use their PC's to watch TV. I believe Fujitsu and Hitachi use proprietary technology but they do license it. I think formac uses Fujitsu screens.



    Regarding why bluetooth isn't popular here, I think jade answered that one. You can use iSync with USB but the cable is available for only certain phone models and you need to buy additional software to make it work. Even then, I don't think it manages all the files properly.



    Apple used to make Japan market keyboards, mice, monitors, and of course the 2400 which is the Cube of the Japan market. It still has a strong following but never succeeded in retail.



    By the way, it is true that the Japanese use their cel phones just like computers. At some point the phones will be powerful to do most of what we do today on our computers. Apple iPhone anyone?





    Finally, my point is: Apple needs to think smaller, and more power efficient. The G5 is a great machine but it will never be the savior for Apple Japan. A powerbook G5 will be in the right direction but Apple needs to work on the DETAILS: LCD screens, TV Tuner, DVR, ITMS Japan and most of all software.
  • Reply 23 of 32
    eric jeric j Posts: 43member
    BeigeUser,



    Oh dear me. I begin to wonder whether the dreaded Alzheimer's is trying to insinuate itself.



    I posted a message to Messiahtosh that I should have directed to you. It ran:



    I know nothing about the Japanese market but I would like to congratulate you on your rational analysis of Apple's position there (even if it's just one person's view, a reasoned argunent like this is a pleasure to read).



    Peace



    eric j



    Apologies both to Messiahtosh and to you.



    eric j
  • Reply 24 of 32
    mac voyermac voyer Posts: 1,294member
    Now, this is more like the type of discussion I was hoping to inspire when I started this thread last week. At that time, I struck such a defensive chord in some of you that you were even denying that there was a problem with G5 sales. If you haven't done so already. Go to the top of the thread and click on the link and read the article that was the impetus for this topic. There are solid reasons why the G5 has performed beneath expectations. I still think it is because Apple charged too much for too long and hoped to capitalize on pent up demand and wow factor emotions. Off topic, but I believe they will do the exact same things with the G5 iMac whenever it is finally released and I believe it will go through the same cycle. Because of the incremental update to the eMac, I suspect we are not going to see a G5 iMac anytime soon. I hope I am wrong.
  • Reply 25 of 32
    amorphamorph Posts: 7,112member
    That's because it's focused on an actual problem (the drop in Japanese sales) rather than the weak drop in PMG5 sales, which can almost be explained away by channel reduction, delays shipping Xserves, and the absence of the customary refresh in Jan/Feb - especially since your assertion that the PMG5 was supposed to "save Apple" is wrong. It would be more accurate to say that the migration away from dependence on the G4 will help save Apple.



    I listened to the call again (got a better connection) and there's a bit of nuance to the drop in the Japanese market: As with the PowerMac, half the drop is channel reduction. So we have about a 10% real drop - still worrisome - out of which come the sales from the Ginza store. I don't have any numbers, obviously, but I think it's safe to say that even accounting for the store, we're still looking at a drop close enough to 10% to just say it's 10%.



    So, there's some interesting stuff here. There are contractual changes and feature upgrades (DH stuff and brighter screens) which are relatively minor mods - and if you can find them in Best Buy, then Apple has to respond to the US market as well as the Japanese as far as the screens go. So those are minor (even if some of the contractual issues are intractable, there's still no technological or engineering barrier to making Sherlock full-featured in Japan - it's all about lawyers).



    So that leaves the big problem, which someone upthread stated succinctly: In Japan, the phone is the Digital Hub, and the PC is more like a general appliance. This is really interesting, because (as I've noted elsewhere) phones and PDAs have more power than personal computers did not all that long ago. A Palm III has about as much horsepower than the computer used to render the graphics in Tron - and something like the new Treos stomps all over the Palm III. So at the same time that the US is moving from desktops to laptops, Japan is moving from laptops to phones and laptop-looking things that might as well be called PDAs.



    This is interesting because it has tremendous implications for Apple's larger strategy - as in, Japan is an important market going off in its own direction, away from Apple's worldwide strategy. I'm not sure how Apple could realign themselves along a phone-centric axis, and I'm certainly open to suggestions. The idea of creating what amounts to a funny TV/TiVo/PC hybrid thing for the Japanese market would be the technologically simplest. The current Mac line could be adapted for those uses easily enough, since there's very little involved technologically. They'd require a new iApp, but I don't suspect a lot of trouble there either. Apple would just have to run a "Digital Spoke" strategy in Japan.



    The alternative, which seems to me to be fraught with peril, is for Apple to extend the Digital Hub strategy in Japan by getting into smart phones. I know little to nothing about what would be required there, but from what I do know it would be a serious uphill battle, especially for a non-Japanese company. They might have better luck adapting their machines as multipurpose "spokes." Come to think of it, the same machines would sell pretty well in US college dorms.
  • Reply 26 of 32
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Amorph

    Who expected the G5 to save Apple?



    Save Apple from WHAT?
  • Reply 27 of 32
    In the long term, Apple should partner with a phone company. The iPhone is not something that can be ignored. Even if Apple does not make one, it needs to be involved in some way.



    For those not familiar with Japanese mobile phones, here are some of the features that are now available:



    1. Built in MP3 player

    2. Built in Games with the quality of SNES

    3. Built in 2 Megapixel and higher digital camera with capability to print directly to portable photo printers.

    4. Built in Radio tuner

    5. Built in TV tuner

    6. Internet Access and e-mail

    7. Remotely control your home DVR for reservations and in the near future, the capability to watch shows recorded on your home DVR remotely while you are out.

    8. Some phones double as credit cards and let you charge purchases to your phone. (FYI: This feature is not widely accepted yet) You can even buy a Coke at some vending machines using your phone.

    9. There is at least one hospital in Tokyo that will page your phone 5-15 minutes (your choice) before the doctor is ready to see you. Note: The hospitals in Japan typically do not take reservations and a 1-3 hour wait to see the doctor is commonplace. This system allows you to use your time efficiently while waiting for the doctor.



    Some of these features are already available in other parts of the world but others are new features specific to Japan. It does seem that personal computers in general will be facing stiff competition from this market. As cell phones, PDA's, and portable MP3 players evolve, the distinction between those will slowly disappear. In other words, the iPod is Apple's future and Apple needs to make strategic alliances with certain companies in order to ensure that the iPod succeeds. Maybe this whole deal with Real Player might be it, maybe not. But it's nice to know that Apple has (supposedly) been working with Sony on some secret project.
  • Reply 28 of 32
    tinktink Posts: 395member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by BeigeUser

    Fact 6: Apple notebooks have the worst LCD displays sold in Japan.



    From what I understand this is incorrect and in fact Apples LCD screens in Japan are quite competitive with both Apple and it's competitors using the same factories, Samsung and LG. I have heard that Apples competition buy their rejects.



    In addition Apple has not lost any market share in Japan. The rest of the industry as a whole is in bad shape.
  • Reply 29 of 32
    a_greera_greer Posts: 4,594member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Aquatic

    because they are $3000 for a good set up with monitor and the same PC is $400. Consumers want cheap desktops that are NOT all-in-one. Apple has been ****ing this up for almost a decade now. DUUUUH get with the program. The iMac was cool when it was released but we need a CHEAP tower. The G5 blows any PC away but it's too much for most people who want a nice desktop but want to pick their own monitor, mostly to save money. The Cube was a perfect idea but the industrial design sucked (you have to flip it over to plug something in!? Stupid!) and it was priced to high. Now that I think about it, a G5 Cube is a Good Idea?.



    What you get for 400$ chokes on mp3 ripping, and does everything else slow too, with a max res of 1024 x 768 (if you are lucky, and you watch no video whatsoever), they are pieces of shit, why do you think best buy wont let you touch (outside of locked screensaver mode) anything under $1500



    now could I build a fast rig for $400, probably, but even that rout, the parts for anything with enough proformance to be worth the time and $$ is 1100$ in parts, at that point, you need to spend 75$ for xp oem...if you can get access to a dealer tradeshow, or 199$ off the shelf for a full version, then a keyboard and a mouse of resonable quality (this is apples one downfall, the mouse is a peice of retarded crap, unchanged since 1984) and at that point I seriously consider a base g5





    A_GREER

    Equil Oppritunit Offender
  • Reply 30 of 32
    concordconcord Posts: 312member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by a_greer:

    now could I build a fast rig for $400, probably, but even that rout, the parts for anything with enough proformance to be worth the time and $$ is 1100$ in parts...



    On a related tangent, a friend of mine recently bought a Dual 1.8 G5 which worked out to about $4000 CDN (and is essentially just a home computer) and it immediately made my PC side wince a little. What I could do with $4000 towards building my own machine...



    I can understand dropping that kind of money if you're going to be using it for work or somehow earning money off it (or maybe if you're a hardcore gamer but that would almost preclude buying a Mac in the first place), but a 4G machine for everyday computing... egads.



    Cheers,



    C.
  • Reply 31 of 32
    beigeuserbeigeuser Posts: 371member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by tink

    From what I understand this is incorrect and in fact Apples LCD screens in Japan are quite competitive with both Apple and it's competitors using the same factories, Samsung and LG. I have heard that Apples competition buy their rejects.





    Regarding the screens: If you don't believe me, buy an airline ticket and come down here. BTW, the Japanese manufacturers use screens from Fujitsu, Hitachi, and Sharp not Samsung or LG.



    Let me try to explain this market. In Japan, computers are made by Fujitsu, NEC, Hitachi, Sharp, and Sony. The computers are priced higher than U.S. computers. You will rarely find any HP or Compaq here. In this market, Apple computers are not overpriced.



    The answer lies in the nature of the Japanese people. They prefer to spend more on a quality product rather than save on a piece of garbage. Japan buys more Louis Vuitton bags and Rolexs than any other country (overwhelmingly so).



    Japanese manufacturers increase value by adding features such as: TV tuner, DVR, high-quality & glossy LCD screen, train fare & route software, capability to create fancy Japanese post-cards (A important aspect of traditional Japanese Culture.), and some even a GPS capability to help you navigate through the city. (BTW, some mobile phones also provide GPS navigation capability now.)



    Microsoft even made a clause in their Windows licensing that gives MS future access to OS improvements that Japanese manufacturers make.



    HP, Compaq, E-machines, IBM, and Dell have all attempted to bring their computers here. Only IBM and Dell still survives. But IBM only sells notebooks now and Dell is usually sent away to a corner of the store which is not very visible (perhaps their online sales are better).



    My point is: Apple needs to improve it's Apple Japan branch. The same lineup for the whole world concept doesn't work here. They need variations of the OS and hardware that is tuned for Japan. Otherwise, Apple may follow in the steps of the other American companies.
  • Reply 32 of 32
    mac voyermac voyer Posts: 1,294member
    While reading the exact same topic over at MacNN, it struck me that may the G5 is selling well to its intended audience. It is just that the intended audience is getting smaller. Virginia Tech already has its supercomputer. The same is true for content creation pros. The real question is why do they not offer an attractive option for none AIO desktops for the low and mid range user?
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