LOL, this bit about longshoremen pulling in $100,000+ per year sounds like another load o' bull courtesy of the right wing. Reminds me of the stories about "Welfare Queens" who purportedly drove around in late-model Caddilacs, all on the taxpayer's bill.
I'm not a rabid pro-union liberal, but I know bullsh!t when I smell it. If a longshoreman is making $100,000 a year, then it's on an 80 hrs/week schedule, 365 days a year, or damn near it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, it's true JYD:
[quote]Under the last contract, full-time longshoremen earn an average annual salary of $80,000, while the most experienced foremen average $167,000 before overtime is calculated.
Under the PMA's most recent proposal, those salaries would jump to $114,500 for longshoremen and $137,500 for marine clerks before overtime.<hr></blockquote>
LOL, this bit about longshoremen pulling in $100,000+ per year sounds like another load o' bull courtesy of the right wing. Reminds me of the stories about "Welfare Queens" who purportedly drove around in late-model Caddilacs, all on the taxpayer's bill.
I'm not a rabid pro-union liberal, but I know bullsh!t when I smell it. If a longshoreman is making $100,000 a year, then it's on an 80 hrs/week schedule, 365 days a year, or damn near it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wow. Junkyard Dawg talking out of his ass. Let me take a second to stop and try to wrap my mind around this concept.
<strong>Wages are not the key sticking point in the talks. ILWU members already are the nation's best-paid blue collar employees, with longshoremen earning an average of $82,895 last year, while clerks earned an average of $118,844 and foremen, who are members of the union, earned an average of $157,352.
Many of those in the longshoremen classification do not work full time. In fact only 53 percent work 2,000 or more hours a week, which comes out to about 40 hours a week throughout the year. Those working full-time have an average pay of $106,883.</strong>
JYD-I generally enjoy your interesting posts, but keep in mind even James Spinosa, ILWU president, puts the current average dockworker salary at $80,000 (>2x the median US income). The 'management' estimate is considerably higher. Probably the truth is somewhere in between. Either way, I wish I was doing that well, I could buy a Titanium!
I posted links to this info near the top of the thread.
1-2 billion dollars lost each day the work stoppage goes
on is wacking our economy out even more than
it already is.]]]
I think the scandals within the ranks of big-business these last months has generated
more total loss.
---------
---------------------------
Someone has sure gotten into a tizzy. Hey Ed M., in case you didn't notice Cake wasn't defending big business or saying that the port strike is worse. Me thinks you have a hidden agenda. Geez.
What's it cost to fly across the country these days? For $80K a year there better be somebody by a phone and a chalkboard who can tell me which ship to swim out to for my new powerbook.
[[[Hey Ed M., in case you didn't notice Cake wasn't defending big business or saying that the port strike is worse. Me thinks you have a hidden agenda. Geez. ]]]
You gotta be kidding, right? Sheesh! The point is that regardless of what these people are paid, they are doing exactly what any business man would do -- negotiating their wages. A CEO who feels he is worth 50 Mil certainly isn't going to take a job for 10 mil. and that's largely for unproductive work.
The point I'm trying to illustrate is that even some of the best paid hourly workers would have to work YEARS at their current wages to make what many in the upper management positions make in a single year.
For instance, top grade-A mechanics and machinists at Merck make great $$, but keep in mind that most of these people have engineering degrees and lots of apprenticeship time behind them, yet if you compared their salaries to those of upper management, they'd have to work years to make what these people make in a single year. In short, the people who are more skilled and more educated are making less. So if some dock workers are striking, more power to them, otherwise, let the suits do the donkey work. And btw... no hidden agenda here, just keeping it in perspective.
[quote] 2. Taft-Harley act is 50 years old, this is no recent expansion of government power (separate issue from whether it is right or not, that's fireside chat territory) <hr></blockquote>
taft-harley has never been used before for a "lock-out", has only been used during strikes....this would be a "new" interpatation/use of this act...possibly not even a legal one, but the dock workers want to go back so it won't be challanged....g
I guess only people who wear suits and sit on their a**es should make that much money, eh? </strong><hr></blockquote>
Absolutely BtT~ Who do those workers think they are? Next thing you know it will be educators getting paid as much as their worst students from the best backgrounds two years out of school.
The numbers thrown about for an average long shoresman salary do seem a bit high. Not high in terms of what they deserve, neccessarily, but high in terms of what I thought the labor market would dictate.
These figures can be easily cooked in either direction. Average salaries don't mean much since a few high paying positions can skew the figure. Many companies or organizations have high average salaries... until you run the calculation again and exclude upper management salaries. On the other hand, you can effectively lower the average salary figure by including part time laborers, and other accounting voodoo.
I'm actually quite interested in the median compensation of full-time longshoremen in non-supervisory positions after adjusting for a 40 hr work week. Insights anyone?
<strong>Since the average CEO makes anywhere from 20 to 1,000 times what a teacher makes, what kind of organized crime do you call that?</strong><hr></blockquote>
teacher are not as organized or mean as long shoremen. Screw with a teacher you might get a C or a letter home, screw with a long shoremen they accidentally drop a 20 ton crate on your head. <img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[Surprised]" />
<a href="http://www.thelaborers.net/history/eugene_methvin_articles_revea.htm"; target="_blank">JOE TEITELBAUM, OWNER OF A MIAMI STEVEDORING COMPANY, BECAME SO FED UP IN 1975 WITH SHAKEDOWNS BY THE INTERNATIONAL LONGSHOREMEN'S ASSOCIATION (ILA) THAT HE TURNED TO THE FBI. THE G-MEN WERE ECSTATIC TO HAVE AN INDUSTRY INSIDER BOLD ENOUGH TO WEAR SECRET TAPE RECORDERS AND INTRODUCE UNDERCOVER AGENTS TO HIS BUSINESS</a>
The fact that CEO's make exorbitant salaries is irrelevant to the issue that longshoremen's unions are heavily influenced by organized crime and have been for a long time.
That's not to say some CEO's aren't tied to organized crime but again irrelevant.
Comments
<strong>
LOL, this bit about longshoremen pulling in $100,000+ per year sounds like another load o' bull courtesy of the right wing. Reminds me of the stories about "Welfare Queens" who purportedly drove around in late-model Caddilacs, all on the taxpayer's bill.
I'm not a rabid pro-union liberal, but I know bullsh!t when I smell it. If a longshoreman is making $100,000 a year, then it's on an 80 hrs/week schedule, 365 days a year, or damn near it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, it's true JYD:
[quote]Under the last contract, full-time longshoremen earn an average annual salary of $80,000, while the most experienced foremen average $167,000 before overtime is calculated.
Under the PMA's most recent proposal, those salaries would jump to $114,500 for longshoremen and $137,500 for marine clerks before overtime.<hr></blockquote>
The <a href="http://www.dailynews.com/Stories/0,1413,200%7E20954%7E894269,00.html" target="_blank">full story is here</a> and there are lots more facts if you're still smellin' somethin' stanky.
<strong>
LOL, this bit about longshoremen pulling in $100,000+ per year sounds like another load o' bull courtesy of the right wing. Reminds me of the stories about "Welfare Queens" who purportedly drove around in late-model Caddilacs, all on the taxpayer's bill.
I'm not a rabid pro-union liberal, but I know bullsh!t when I smell it. If a longshoreman is making $100,000 a year, then it's on an 80 hrs/week schedule, 365 days a year, or damn near it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wow. Junkyard Dawg talking out of his ass. Let me take a second to stop and try to wrap my mind around this concept.
<strong>Wages are not the key sticking point in the talks. ILWU members already are the nation's best-paid blue collar employees, with longshoremen earning an average of $82,895 last year, while clerks earned an average of $118,844 and foremen, who are members of the union, earned an average of $157,352.
Many of those in the longshoremen classification do not work full time. In fact only 53 percent work 2,000 or more hours a week, which comes out to about 40 hours a week throughout the year. Those working full-time have an average pay of $106,883.</strong>
From the rabid right-wing press organ at <a href="http://money.cnn.com/2002/10/07/news/port_talks/index.htm."; target="_blank">http://money.cnn.com/2002/10/07/news/port_talks/index.htm.</a>;
I'm off to play UT, bbl to share more knowledge.
I posted links to this info near the top of the thread.
1-2 billion dollars lost each day the work stoppage goes
on is wacking our economy out even more than
it already is.]]]
I think the scandals within the ranks of big-business these last months has generated
more total loss.
---------
---------------------------
Someone has sure gotten into a tizzy. Hey Ed M., in case you didn't notice Cake wasn't defending big business or saying that the port strike is worse. Me thinks you have a hidden agenda. Geez.
[ 10-09-2002: Message edited by: tismfu ]</p>
You gotta be kidding, right? Sheesh! The point is that regardless of what these people are paid, they are doing exactly what any business man would do -- negotiating their wages. A CEO who feels he is worth 50 Mil certainly isn't going to take a job for 10 mil. and that's largely for unproductive work.
The point I'm trying to illustrate is that even some of the best paid hourly workers would have to work YEARS at their current wages to make what many in the upper management positions make in a single year.
For instance, top grade-A mechanics and machinists at Merck make great $$, but keep in mind that most of these people have engineering degrees and lots of apprenticeship time behind them, yet if you compared their salaries to those of upper management, they'd have to work years to make what these people make in a single year. In short, the people who are more skilled and more educated are making less. So if some dock workers are striking, more power to them, otherwise, let the suits do the donkey work. And btw... no hidden agenda here, just keeping it in perspective.
--
Ed M.
tismfu 1
Ed M. 0
taft-harley has never been used before for a "lock-out", has only been used during strikes....this would be a "new" interpatation/use of this act...possibly not even a legal one, but the dock workers want to go back so it won't be challanged....g
<strong>
I guess only people who wear suits and sit on their a**es should make that much money, eh?
Absolutely BtT~ Who do those workers think they are? Next thing you know it will be educators getting paid as much as their worst students from the best backgrounds two years out of school.
Barto
<strong>
The <a href="http://www.dailynews.com/Stories/0,1413,200%7E20954%7E894269,00.html" target="_blank">full story is here</a> and there are lots more facts if you're still smellin' somethin' stanky.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well damn!
I should quit school and become a longshoreman!
Don't know what to say, other than I was flat out wrong on that one.
Ah, faith is restored in Appleinsider boards.
A single guy who plain ol' admits when he's wrong.
Nice one JD.
Lemon Bon Bon
These figures can be easily cooked in either direction. Average salaries don't mean much since a few high paying positions can skew the figure. Many companies or organizations have high average salaries... until you run the calculation again and exclude upper management salaries. On the other hand, you can effectively lower the average salary figure by including part time laborers, and other accounting voodoo.
I'm actually quite interested in the median compensation of full-time longshoremen in non-supervisory positions after adjusting for a 40 hr work week. Insights anyone?
<strong>Don't know what to say, other than I was flat out wrong on that one.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Dang. Okay. You seem decent enough. Sorry for getting pissy at you.
Kinda sad that longshoreman make on average anywhere from 2-2.5 times most school teachers make.
Well, that's what a strong union under the thumb of organized crime will do for you.
On topic
Any freight being redirected through the Panama canal and heading to the eastern seaboard??
Well, that's what a strong union under the thumb of organized crime will do for you.<hr></blockquote>
Since the average CEO makes anywhere from 20 to 1,000 times what a teacher makes, what kind of organized crime do you call that?
[quote]Any freight being redirected through the Panama canal and heading to the eastern seaboard??<hr></blockquote>
Most container ships won't fit through the Canal.
[ 10-10-2002: Message edited by: cowerd ]</p>
<strong>Since the average CEO makes anywhere from 20 to 1,000 times what a teacher makes, what kind of organized crime do you call that?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Creative accounting...ala Worldcom, AOL-Timewarner, Enron, etc.... <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
Since the average CEO makes anywhere from 20 to 1,000 times what a teacher makes, what kind of organized crime do you call that?<hr></blockquote>
I don't in general, but
<a href="http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2002/jun/jun04a_02.html"; target="_blank">17 Associates of the Gambino Organized Crime Family Indicted</a>
<a href="http://www.lcc.gc.ca/en/themes/er/oc/nathan/nathan_main.asp"; target="_blank">Nathanson Centre for the study of organized crime and corruption section3</a>
<a href="http://www.pir.org/books45.html"; target="_blank">Search for Book titled The Mafia in the Marketplace</a>
<a href="http://www.thelaborers.net/history/eugene_methvin_articles_revea.htm"; target="_blank">JOE TEITELBAUM, OWNER OF A MIAMI STEVEDORING COMPANY, BECAME SO FED UP IN 1975 WITH SHAKEDOWNS BY THE INTERNATIONAL LONGSHOREMEN'S ASSOCIATION (ILA) THAT HE TURNED TO THE FBI. THE G-MEN WERE ECSTATIC TO HAVE AN INDUSTRY INSIDER BOLD ENOUGH TO WEAR SECRET TAPE RECORDERS AND INTRODUCE UNDERCOVER AGENTS TO HIS BUSINESS</a>
<a href="http://www.americanmafia.com/Crime_And_Labor.html"; target="_blank">ORGANIZED CRIME AND THE LABOR UNIONS
PREPARED FOR THE WHITE HOUSE IN 1978</a>
<a href="http://www.laborers.org/BosGlobe_PresCom_1-15-86.html"; target="_blank">Boston Globe</a>
<a href="http://www.galvnews.com/report.lasso?WCD=3036"; target="_blank">And More Recently</a>
<a href="http://www.nlpc.org/olap/UCU3/05_13_13.htm"; target="_blank">UNION CORRUPTION UPDATE</a>
<a href="http://ca.news.yahoo.com/020710/6/njra.html"; target="_blank">Haifax drug bust</a>
<a href="http://www.ganglandnews.com/column54.htm"; target="_blank">Longshoremen's Association official meeting with other mobsters. </a>
you get the idea.
The fact that CEO's make exorbitant salaries is irrelevant to the issue that longshoremen's unions are heavily influenced by organized crime and have been for a long time.
That's not to say some CEO's aren't tied to organized crime but again irrelevant.
back to your regularly scheduled discussion.
[ 10-10-2002: Message edited by: rickag ]</p>