Lives lost in Iraq

eric jeric j
Posted:
in General Discussion edited January 2014
Hi,



I want to tread carefully here. I'm trying to stand back and take the broad view. Trying to view things rationally, trying to hold my emotions in check. BUT I do not claim that emotions are unimportant.



Many (I do not have the numbers) of coalition young men and many more Iraqis - 10 times as many? - (men, women and children) have been injured and have died in the conflict.



I ask myself how many of these would otherwise have died in road accidents, ( of which there are many) or from other "natural causes"?



Young men are particularly prone to death from road accidents and violence. A proportion of young men (and others) who have died in Iraq or who have suffered injuries would have succumbed from other causes.



I am aware that when a person dies in her/his own country, the emotional shock, although great, may be less than when the event occurs far from home.



I suppose what I am proposing (while not forgetting the suffering of their loved ones) is that the toll of deaths and injuries associated with the conflict in Iraq (and any other "war") is somewhat less than the bald statistics would indicate.



Peace



eric j

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 9
    pfflampfflam Posts: 5,053member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by eric j

    Hi,



    I want to tread carefully here. I'm trying to stand back and take the broad view. Trying to view things rationally, trying to hold my emotions in check. BUT I do not claim that emotions are unimportant.



    Many (I do not have the numbers) of coalition young men and many more Iraqis - 10 times as many? - (men, women and children) have been injured and have died in the conflict.



    I ask myself how many of these would otherwise have died in road accidents, ( of which there are many) or from other "natural causes"?



    Young men are particularly prone to death from road accidents and violence. A proportion of young men (and others) who have died in Iraq or who have suffered injuries would have succumbed from other causes.



    I am aware that when a person dies in her/his own country, the emotional shock, although great, may be less than when the event occurs far from home.



    I suppose what I am proposing (while not forgetting the suffering of their loved ones) is that the toll of deaths and injuries associated with the conflict in Iraq (and any other "war") is somewhat less than the bald statistics would indicate.



    Peace



    eric j



    There are road accidents in Iraq as well,, not every accident that occurs is counted as a casualty.



    You state the point of your p[ost but I just don't understand it: are you suggesting that because they died far from home while there was a very much smaller chance that they would have died at home then there is a possible bright spot?
  • Reply 2 of 9
    eric jeric j Posts: 43member
    pfflam,



    Neither bright or dark. Just that some who die and who are injured in wars would have suffered anyway from other causes.



    IMHO, the headline figures of casualties take no account of the probability that some would have been impacted by "normal" causes, eg that road accidents (in Iraq or elsewhere) may account daily for more deaths and injuries than the coalition forces suffer in Iraq. But we accept road casualties as "normal"..



    Guess I took a long way round to illustrate my point.



    Peace



    eric j
  • Reply 3 of 9
    pfflampfflam Posts: 5,053member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by eric j

    pfflam,



    Neither bright or dark. Just that some who die and who are injured in wars would have suffered anyway from other causes.



    IMHO, the headline figures of casualties take no account of the probability that some would have been impacted by "normal" causes, eg that road accidents (in Iraq or elsewhere) may account daily for more deaths and injuries than the coalition forces suffer in Iraq. But we accept road casualties as "normal"..



    Guess I took a long way round to illustrate my point.



    Peace



    eric j



    Take the same number of people from the same demographic, subtract the number of accidental deaths in Iraq from the accidents in your at-home group, and I am fairly sure that there would be less than 0 amount of people who would have died in accidents at home.



    If you don't subtract the accidents in Iraq the number would still be small.



    Why don't you look up statistics on AAA's site or the Federal transportation Site . . . or just PM Giant with a request for finding such information.



    I tend to think that the line of reason belies a motive that I find distastful at best . . . if I am wrong you will let me know won't you?
  • Reply 4 of 9
    eric jeric j Posts: 43member
    pfflam,



    I am a uncomfortable that you feel that I have hidden or obscure motives. I tried really hard to be open. I had no intention to express an opinion either for or against the Iraq conflict, if that is what you suspect.



    I try to look at issues of many kinds objectively - to the best of my ability.



    Can you please explain in what way my comments led you to believe that I harbour motives that you find distateful?



    Peace



    eric j
  • Reply 5 of 9
    thttht Posts: 5,441member
    Deaths due to war falls upon the states in conflict because they are a deterministic political act done by said states. Deaths due to accidents are an artifact of our individualism, being unfortunate, and are therefore not considered horrifying in the same sense as a war. In other words, one is a loss for our nation, a representative of us all, while the other is a loss of one only representing themselves.



    Don't think that the two are equivalent, especially in this nation where our individualism is sacrosanct. They are fighting for us, fighting in our name, by their choice, not for themselves.
  • Reply 6 of 9
    pfflampfflam Posts: 5,053member
    It feels like you are saying that the deaths are not that bad because they would have died at home anyway. So, no reason to find the war the crime it actually is.





    but I said it seemed to be distasteful but that i was not sure, if you assure me that you had no such motives then that is good enough for me.



    But still I would suggest that if you really are interested in the numbers you can dig and do research.
  • Reply 7 of 9
    eric jeric j Posts: 43member
    pfflam,



    I, too ,have an opinion on the morality of, and events leading up to, the Iraq conflict, but I am not prepared to vent it in a forum. The whole issue is too complex, IMHO, to discuss rationally and in a historical context without much time and eye-to-eye contact.



    THT,



    I understand your your comments too. BTW I am a Brit, so my compatriots are standing beside your soldiers. When they suffer, I suffer. As I said above, I will not here discuss the Iraq situation further.



    Peace



    eric j
  • Reply 8 of 9
    zarathustrazarathustra Posts: 264member
    It might help if we called it like it is:



    Accidents = Lives lost



    War = Lives taken





    Consider how bad we feel when someone takes something from us in comparison to when we lose it ourselves?
  • Reply 9 of 9
    eric jeric j Posts: 43member
    Zarathustra,



    Exactly. Wish I had been able to formulate the issue so concisely.



    Peace



    eric j
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