Just for the record, I am certainly not against gun ownership to prevent crime, but, as has already been pointed out by billybobsky, jessearl's arguments are in the realm of paranoia.
i honestly couldn't care less if you owned a gun with certain provisions which would make the streets infinitely safer and crimes much easier to solve such as finger printing all weapons and advanced methods to prevent the discharge of weapons unless they are being held by their rightful owner...
And then you cite history, which, my dear friend, isn't on your side.
History:
In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million "educated" people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million "educated" people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Misplaced assumptions...
How many of those "rounded-up" had weapons?
How many of those nations were democracies?
How many of those nations had pre-existing and institutional biases?
I would be hard pressed to argue for the systematic removal of guns from pre-1970's south simply because i know what would have happened. Your examples are simply not applicable to this nation (or most others) at this time...
Ever feel like you're the biggest jerk in the whole world? Not on just a bad day, but everyday. Everyday, for no reason at all, you're just a big, fat jerk. That's what I feel like today.
I don't mean to be a jerk. I'm not trying to be a jerk. I don't want to be a jerk. But it happens and I don't know why. And I didn't even think I was acting like a jerk, but in hindsight and through the view of another, I definitely was a jerk.
There should be dark holes scattered around town so that people can crawl in them and wallow.
For some reason, I much prefer arguing with uber-capitalists like BR and Splinemodel to arguing with uber-second-amendment-and-more advocates. Personal preference I suppose. Nevertheless, I agree that good ole' boy "Jesse Earl's" perception of history is somewhat...skewed. I suppose a selective reading of the 1930's could also fault "gun control" for the genocidal extermination of the Jews. (Yeah...guns and a few other things. ) At least the capitalists use logic and are forthcoming on how they view (what I perceive to be) the faults of their economic system.
For some reason, I much prefer arguing with uber-capitalists like BR and Splinemodel to arguing with uber-second-amendment-and-more advocates. Personal preference I suppose. Nevertheless, I agree that good ole' boy "Jesse Earl's" perception of history is somewhat...skewed. I suppose a selective reading of the 1930's could also fault "gun control" for the genocidal extermination of the Jews. (Yeah...guns and a few other things. ) At least the capitalists use logic and are forthcoming on how they view (what I perceive to be) the faults of their economic system.
Would an uber-capitalist be in favor of ending the war on drugs, promoting marriage, the war on tobacco, and welfare as we know it to instead subsidize college education for everyone and special retraining programs for people who lose their jobs to globalization? I'm for this.
Here are 1000 documented stories of armed American citizens using firearms for the defense of themselves or others for your perusal.. I don't know where you live, but I'm sure you can probably find a story in there from your city or nearby.
The story in 2001 of the the 77-year old man defending his home from an intruder is particularly enlightening.
And yes, I've met someone who an attacker tried to murder. In the city of Crystal River, FL, in 2000 I think, a man entered a pawn shop and attacked the owner with a samurai sword. He was stabbed through the chest and only then he was able to retrieve a pistol in the back of his shop and defend himself. He survived.
Just think about it.
So what then? What kind of civilized society FORCES it's people into an ARMS race JUST TO GET TO WORK? At what point does the world move past this "politic of fear" pushed on us? perhaps the problems that make us fear walking through our own neighborhoods at night is the fact that we're afraid, and not that we need bigger guns.
It's amazing how despite being unarmed, the Brits seem to handle their crime just fine. Same with most of Europe.
Just remember, that for each case of a person defending themselves with a gun, there are 4 stories of people attacking others with them.
In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million "educated" people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Nice to know you equate the Bush administration to these lovely examples.
In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
[snip]
From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million "educated" people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Hellfire. I live in the United Kingdom, where handguns are illegal. Should I be concerned about being 'rounded up'?
Tell you what. We'll keep the gun control, the miniscule murder-by-gunshot rate and the threat of being rounded up, you can have all the guns you want free of the fear of summary execution by government death-squad and a murder-by-gunshot rate right up there with South Africa and Colombia.
Comments
I don't know yet:
http://www.moregunsmorecrime.com/default.htm
http://www.moregunsmorecrime.com/generalDGU.htm
How come I have this creepy feeling that jessearl might soon join the ranks of 'conservatives' with an aversion to facts?
And yet all the 'liberals' here are supporting gun ownership in some way. Go figure.
Originally posted by billybobsky
And then you cite history, which, my dear friend, isn't on your side.
History:
In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million "educated" people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Anyway, do you really think you can fight the US government, especially considering the lasers they got from the aliens they keep at area 51?
Originally posted by giant
Well, then vote bush out of office if you are worried about overpowered government.
Anyway, do you really think you can fight the US government, especially considering the laser guns they got from the aliens they keep at area 51?
Sorry to correct you... they're Phazer guns that they got from the aliens. Worse than any lazer gun.
Also, Jessearl... the government can hear what you're typing. I'd be careful.
Originally posted by jessearl
History:
In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million "educated" people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Misplaced assumptions...
How many of those "rounded-up" had weapons?
How many of those nations were democracies?
How many of those nations had pre-existing and institutional biases?
I would be hard pressed to argue for the systematic removal of guns from pre-1970's south simply because i know what would have happened. Your examples are simply not applicable to this nation (or most others) at this time...
Ever feel like you're the biggest jerk in the whole world? Not on just a bad day, but everyday. Everyday, for no reason at all, you're just a big, fat jerk. That's what I feel like today.
I don't mean to be a jerk. I'm not trying to be a jerk. I don't want to be a jerk. But it happens and I don't know why. And I didn't even think I was acting like a jerk, but in hindsight and through the view of another, I definitely was a jerk.
There should be dark holes scattered around town so that people can crawl in them and wallow.
I'm going to go look for one.
For some reason, I much prefer arguing with uber-capitalists like BR and Splinemodel to arguing with uber-second-amendment-and-more advocates. Personal preference I suppose. Nevertheless, I agree that good ole' boy "Jesse Earl's" perception of history is somewhat...skewed. I suppose a selective reading of the 1930's could also fault "gun control" for the genocidal extermination of the Jews. (Yeah...guns and a few other things.
Originally posted by ShawnJ
For some reason, I much prefer arguing with uber-capitalists like BR and Splinemodel to arguing with uber-second-amendment-and-more advocates. Personal preference I suppose. Nevertheless, I agree that good ole' boy "Jesse Earl's" perception of history is somewhat...skewed. I suppose a selective reading of the 1930's could also fault "gun control" for the genocidal extermination of the Jews. (Yeah...guns and a few other things.
Would an uber-capitalist be in favor of ending the war on drugs, promoting marriage, the war on tobacco, and welfare as we know it to instead subsidize college education for everyone and special retraining programs for people who lose their jobs to globalization? I'm for this.
it's interesting reading. hell, with Ashcroft in office, it's really interesting reading.
Originally posted by jessearl
giant,
Here are 1000 documented stories of armed American citizens using firearms for the defense of themselves or others for your perusal.. I don't know where you live, but I'm sure you can probably find a story in there from your city or nearby.
http://www.healylaw.com/self-def.htm
The story in 2001 of the the 77-year old man defending his home from an intruder is particularly enlightening.
And yes, I've met someone who an attacker tried to murder. In the city of Crystal River, FL, in 2000 I think, a man entered a pawn shop and attacked the owner with a samurai sword. He was stabbed through the chest and only then he was able to retrieve a pistol in the back of his shop and defend himself. He survived.
Just think about it.
So what then? What kind of civilized society FORCES it's people into an ARMS race JUST TO GET TO WORK? At what point does the world move past this "politic of fear" pushed on us? perhaps the problems that make us fear walking through our own neighborhoods at night is the fact that we're afraid, and not that we need bigger guns.
It's amazing how despite being unarmed, the Brits seem to handle their crime just fine. Same with most of Europe.
Just remember, that for each case of a person defending themselves with a gun, there are 4 stories of people attacking others with them.
Originally posted by jessearl
History:
In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million "educated" people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Nice to know you equate the Bush administration to these lovely examples.
As someone who has had relatives murdered, the irony here is approaching idiocy.
Originally posted by jessearl
History:
In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
[snip]
From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million "educated" people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Hellfire. I live in the United Kingdom, where handguns are illegal. Should I be concerned about being 'rounded up'?
Tell you what. We'll keep the gun control, the miniscule murder-by-gunshot rate and the threat of being rounded up, you can have all the guns you want free of the fear of summary execution by government death-squad and a murder-by-gunshot rate right up there with South Africa and Colombia.
Deal?
Seriously, though, what is your homicide rate over there? (Gun/no gun deaths)
Edit: Nevermind
....the closest you guys get is 44 per mil in Northern Ireland to our 64 per mil....
I need to check---if is this mudered charges or simply death stats.
Edit 2: It would seem that the UK stats are done by prosecuted cases....US is not. (but still higher---I think)