Oh, my mistake. I thought I read somewhere about the PPC 970 having two independent altivec units.
Anyways, the G4 might scale to 1.8 GHz on a 0.13 process, but the PPC 970 is going to debut at 1.8 GHz. It's got plenty of headroom, while the G4 is going to be nearly maxed out at 1.8 GHz (if it really does scale that high. I think it's more likely that Moto will choke on it).
<strong>TBoxman, I'm glad someone took the time to follow my very simple clue. <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
The 970+ made in 90 nm process will scale up to 2.5 GHz. It is scheduled to be released in 2004. I can't say if that's early or late in 2004, but IBM have hinted that they'll move to 90 nm rather quickly. I guess that 970 was designed to be made in 90 nm al along. After 2.5 GHz the future is uncertain, there is a proposed continuation of the 970-core, but what it will look like I can't say.
As rumors have stated for a long time, IBM is working on a new core in their 7xx-line of processors; a successor to the 750-series. This processor is codenamed Mojave and will debut in 2004 @ 1.4 GHz, and will have a variant designed with multiprocessor in mind. Perhaps multicore, perhaps SMP.. i don't know. I also cannot say if this is the one with an integrated SIMD or if it's in Polaris. But.. from what I can tell.. Polaris is a continuation of 750-series and Mojave is a rather new core so my bet is on Mojave, not Polaris. Mojave has connections to the next generation 4xx-cores @ 2.4 DMIPS/MHz.
As both 440GP and 970 are Book E-compliant my guess it that Mojave also will be. 440GP will be replaced by 440GX (130 nm) next year and Aurora (90 nm) after that.
......As rumors have stated for a long time, IBM is working on a new core in their 7xx-line of processors; a successor to the 750-series. This processor is codenamed Mojave and will debut in 2004 @ 1.4 GHz, and will have a variant designed with multiprocessor in mind. ....
<strong> The 970+ made in 90 nm process will scale up to 2.5 GHz. It is scheduled to be released in 2004. I can't say if that's early or late in 2004, but IBM have hinted that they'll move to 90 nm rather quickly. I guess that 970 was designed to be made in 90 nm al along. After 2.5 GHz the future is uncertain, there is a proposed continuation of the 970-core, but what it will look like I can't say.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I would be exceptionally surprised to discover there was any truth in the PPC970 topping out at 2.5 GHz on a 90 nm process. 1.8 Ghz on a 0.13µm process has been described as "conservative".
I wouldn't be surprised to learn there is more being worked upon or that IBM plans a rapid switch to a 0.09µm process. Once you get down to that level a lot of options open up.
The 970 is BookE. Or maybe IBM lied in the conference.
BookE refers to the method of having a 64-bit PowerPC switching between 64 and 32-bit processing modes.
Barto</strong><hr></blockquote>
BookE refers to an awful lot more than just that. IBM never said the 970 was bookE, that was an unwarranted inference originally drawn by David Wang.
Making the 970 bookE would, as you say, have entirely changed the way in which 32/64 bit switches are accomplished, and hence made the processor unuseable in IBMs AIX systems.
<strong>Anyways, the G4 might scale to 1.8 GHz on a 0.13 process, but the PPC 970 is going to debut at 1.8 GHz. It's got plenty of headroom, while the G4 is going to be nearly maxed out at 1.8 GHz (if it really does scale that high. I think it's more likely that Moto will choke on it).</strong><hr></blockquote>
I certainly have to agree there. I have no reason to believe Mot could get the G4 much past 1.4-1.5, in fact. They've had all this time with Apollo (which they had said would scale easily), and all they've given us is 1.2. If they ever manage to get past 1.5, then I'll truly be shocked. In any case, if IBM gets a conservative 1.8GHz out of the great pipeline depth of the 970, then it's folly to believe the G4 could ever get there with its seven stages. Of course, I'd readily assent to the resident engineers if their opinions contradict mine, but I don't think they would.
The 970 might top out at 2.5 GHz, but that doesn't mean that there won't be a follow-up series... for example, if the 970 uses POWER4 techology perhaps the follow-up will use POWER5 technology. No matter how you slice it, IBM isn't getting out of the processor business anytime soon. In fact I'd say that they're just getting warmed up.
I also don't think that IBM's G3 has reached the end of the line. While 1.4 GHz might not be impressive for a desktop processor these days, the G3 is primarily used for embedded devices and 1.4 GHz is impressive there. It'll probably be so power efficient that it'll generate power!
The quote from the IBM filing was interesting -- I wonder who they consider "their competition" is? Just Motorola? Intel and AMD are already shipping on 0.13, I believe, and Intel at least should reach 0.09 fairly soon.
There are a lot of people pessimistic about the time line of the 970. I'm more optimistic -- I think IBM hitting full production in time for 2H '03 means we'll see a September introduction (and ship) of an Apple PowerMac using the 970. The portable & consumer versions may have to wait until the 0.09 micron version... maybe. A 1.2 GHz GPUL looks like it'll be cool enough for the iMac and possibly the Ti Book.
I would like to take the time to say I TOLD YOU SO! To many people on this forum. In ExtremeTech's AGP 8X review, there is a sentance.
"AGP 8X brings with it two noteworthy features: a 2X speed increase to 2.2GB/sec and the ability to have more than one AGP graphics device in a system."
Ha! Everyone who told me that you could only have one AGP graphics card in a computer, you know who you are.
-----------
I can't find it right now, but there is a web site with 2 pictures of the MPF conference. One shows a photograph (on a screen) comparing of the Power4 and PowerPC 970. The other shows the techical details of the PowerPC 970.
Anyway, on the tech slide, it says built on Power4 and BookE technology.
For me the most interesting statement was, "We have orders that would fully load the facility well into midyear of 2003." IBM is talking about their backlog for this plant. In order to fulfill their orders by midyear then it will need to be at full scale production very soon.
I'm more optimistic on the delivery of 970 systems than others. I'm betting that the reports of 2H '03 regard 970 general availability and are similar to Mot's web site not listing a 1.25 gHz 7455 or even that it exists. Apple has probabaly entered into a purchase agreement with Mot for ALL 1.25 chips hence the reason you can't order them. The same can be said for Apple's agreement with IBM.
So, if Apple has dibs on most- if not all- 970's then it stands to reason that IBM is unable to announce availability of the chip to other OEMs until Apple's appetite is satiated. I'm also betting that Apple's demand will lesson just as IBM says it will- by midyear '03. Which is about the time that all the orders for the new Macs will have been satisfied. This means that Apple will announce a 970 machine in January with low-end shipping systems by March and the high-end by April.
AGP 8X is a fairly pointless spec, becaus the 2 features it introduces (2-slot capability and faster speed) will only start to be used at the time PCI Express arrives.
And PCI Express is a much more capable spec anyway.
I'm sorry.. 970 is not Book E according so my sources. That was a statement made from those attending MPF, but nothing in 970's documentation mentions Book E.. it does mention that it's fully PPC AS version 2.0 compliant for 64- and 32-bit application binary compatibility with PowerPC Books I and II though.
And.. I do hope that 970+ scale past 2.5 GHz, but that's something I don't know anything about. My IBM source say 2.5 GHz but since they haven't even begun producing 970 in 130 nm yet.. if 1.8 GHz is conservative then 2.5 Ghz might be as well. I guess a 40% increase in performance when moving from one fab to a smaller one is reasonable, so if 1.8 GHz for the 970 really is 2.2 GHz.. then we have 3.1 for 970+.
I'm not good at predicting the prospects of performance increase in procesosrs.. perhaps someone else can shed some light in this area. I'm just telling you what I'm told, and that is that IBM is planning to bring 970+ to 2.5 GHz in 2004.
I hope the PPC970 is like the P4: starts out slower, but quickly overtakes the competition.
Err. Maybe it won't start out slower. SPEC scores aren't 100% accurate and Altivec may tip the scales.
Either way, this is a HUGE improvement over the G4. Apple is lucky IBM saved their butts. I don't know how much longer Mac users can deal with "speed envy."
Hopefully we won't have to wait much longer. My iBook is fast enough for general use, but the G4 I use for design is long in tooth. I could put a dual processor PPC970 machine to good use.
<strong>IBM is planning to bring 970+ to 2.5 GHz in 2004.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I was confused as to whether you meant it was just being brought to that speed or limited at that speed. I can't see that being its frequency cap but certainly that might be a number they aim for in scaling. They do seem to have a penchant for multiples of 0.2 GHz though. Not sure if there is a technical reason for that one or it is just coincidence.
I was confused as to whether you meant it was just being brought to that speed or limited at that speed. I can't see that being its frequency cap but certainly that might be a number they aim for in scaling. They do seem to have a penchant for multiples of 0.2 GHz though. Not sure if there is a technical reason for that one or it is just coincidence.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I too, think it's just an introductory speed. IBM will release faster chips as they refine their manufacturing process like any chip maker.
Comments
Anyways, the G4 might scale to 1.8 GHz on a 0.13 process, but the PPC 970 is going to debut at 1.8 GHz. It's got plenty of headroom, while the G4 is going to be nearly maxed out at 1.8 GHz (if it really does scale that high. I think it's more likely that Moto will choke on it).
<strong>TBoxman, I'm glad someone took the time to follow my very simple clue. <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Eh, BITE ME!
<img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
As rumors have stated for a long time, IBM is working on a new core in their 7xx-line of processors; a successor to the 750-series. This processor is codenamed Mojave and will debut in 2004 @ 1.4 GHz, and will have a variant designed with multiprocessor in mind. Perhaps multicore, perhaps SMP.. i don't know. I also cannot say if this is the one with an integrated SIMD or if it's in Polaris. But.. from what I can tell.. Polaris is a continuation of 750-series and Mojave is a rather new core so my bet is on Mojave, not Polaris. Mojave has connections to the next generation 4xx-cores @ 2.4 DMIPS/MHz.
As both 440GP and 970 are Book E-compliant my guess it that Mojave also will be. 440GP will be replaced by 440GX (130 nm) next year and Aurora (90 nm) after that.
[ 10-20-2002: Message edited by: Henriok ]</p>
<strong>
Eh, BITE ME!
<img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Looks to me like I already did! <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
<strong>
......As rumors have stated for a long time, IBM is working on a new core in their 7xx-line of processors; a successor to the 750-series. This processor is codenamed Mojave and will debut in 2004 @ 1.4 GHz, and will have a variant designed with multiprocessor in mind. ....
[ 10-20-2002: Message edited by: Henriok ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
1.4 GHz G3 in 2004??
<strong> The 970+ made in 90 nm process will scale up to 2.5 GHz. It is scheduled to be released in 2004. I can't say if that's early or late in 2004, but IBM have hinted that they'll move to 90 nm rather quickly. I guess that 970 was designed to be made in 90 nm al along. After 2.5 GHz the future is uncertain, there is a proposed continuation of the 970-core, but what it will look like I can't say.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I would be exceptionally surprised to discover there was any truth in the PPC970 topping out at 2.5 GHz on a 90 nm process. 1.8 Ghz on a 0.13µm process has been described as "conservative".
I wouldn't be surprised to learn there is more being worked upon or that IBM plans a rapid switch to a 0.09µm process. Once you get down to that level a lot of options open up.
<strong>The 970 is not Book E.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The 970 is BookE. Or maybe IBM lied in the conference.
BookE refers to the method of having a 64-bit PowerPC switching between 64 and 32-bit processing modes.
Barto
<strong>
The 970 is BookE. Or maybe IBM lied in the conference.
BookE refers to the method of having a 64-bit PowerPC switching between 64 and 32-bit processing modes.
Barto</strong><hr></blockquote>
BookE refers to an awful lot more than just that. IBM never said the 970 was bookE, that was an unwarranted inference originally drawn by David Wang.
Making the 970 bookE would, as you say, have entirely changed the way in which 32/64 bit switches are accomplished, and hence made the processor unuseable in IBMs AIX systems.
PPC970 is *not* bookE.
michael
<strong>Anyways, the G4 might scale to 1.8 GHz on a 0.13 process, but the PPC 970 is going to debut at 1.8 GHz. It's got plenty of headroom, while the G4 is going to be nearly maxed out at 1.8 GHz (if it really does scale that high. I think it's more likely that Moto will choke on it).</strong><hr></blockquote>
I certainly have to agree there. I have no reason to believe Mot could get the G4 much past 1.4-1.5, in fact. They've had all this time with Apollo (which they had said would scale easily), and all they've given us is 1.2. If they ever manage to get past 1.5, then I'll truly be shocked. In any case, if IBM gets a conservative 1.8GHz out of the great pipeline depth of the 970, then it's folly to believe the G4 could ever get there with its seven stages. Of course, I'd readily assent to the resident engineers if their opinions contradict mine, but I don't think they would.
I also don't think that IBM's G3 has reached the end of the line. While 1.4 GHz might not be impressive for a desktop processor these days, the G3 is primarily used for embedded devices and 1.4 GHz is impressive there. It'll probably be so power efficient that it'll generate power!
The quote from the IBM filing was interesting -- I wonder who they consider "their competition" is? Just Motorola? Intel and AMD are already shipping on 0.13, I believe, and Intel at least should reach 0.09 fairly soon.
There are a lot of people pessimistic about the time line of the 970. I'm more optimistic -- I think IBM hitting full production in time for 2H '03 means we'll see a September introduction (and ship) of an Apple PowerMac using the 970. The portable & consumer versions may have to wait until the 0.09 micron version... maybe. A 1.2 GHz GPUL looks like it'll be cool enough for the iMac and possibly the Ti Book.
"AGP 8X brings with it two noteworthy features: a 2X speed increase to 2.2GB/sec and the ability to have more than one AGP graphics device in a system."
Ha! Everyone who told me that you could only have one AGP graphics card in a computer, you know who you are.
-----------
I can't find it right now, but there is a web site with 2 pictures of the MPF conference. One shows a photograph (on a screen) comparing of the Power4 and PowerPC 970. The other shows the techical details of the PowerPC 970.
Anyway, on the tech slide, it says built on Power4 and BookE technology.
Barto
For me the most interesting statement was, "We have orders that would fully load the facility well into midyear of 2003." IBM is talking about their backlog for this plant. In order to fulfill their orders by midyear then it will need to be at full scale production very soon.
I'm more optimistic on the delivery of 970 systems than others. I'm betting that the reports of 2H '03 regard 970 general availability and are similar to Mot's web site not listing a 1.25 gHz 7455 or even that it exists. Apple has probabaly entered into a purchase agreement with Mot for ALL 1.25 chips hence the reason you can't order them. The same can be said for Apple's agreement with IBM.
So, if Apple has dibs on most- if not all- 970's then it stands to reason that IBM is unable to announce availability of the chip to other OEMs until Apple's appetite is satiated. I'm also betting that Apple's demand will lesson just as IBM says it will- by midyear '03. Which is about the time that all the orders for the new Macs will have been satisfied. This means that Apple will announce a 970 machine in January with low-end shipping systems by March and the high-end by April.
And PCI Express is a much more capable spec anyway.
Barto
And.. I do hope that 970+ scale past 2.5 GHz, but that's something I don't know anything about. My IBM source say 2.5 GHz but since they haven't even begun producing 970 in 130 nm yet.. if 1.8 GHz is conservative then 2.5 Ghz might be as well. I guess a 40% increase in performance when moving from one fab to a smaller one is reasonable, so if 1.8 GHz for the 970 really is 2.2 GHz.. then we have 3.1 for 970+.
I'm not good at predicting the prospects of performance increase in procesosrs.. perhaps someone else can shed some light in this area. I'm just telling you what I'm told, and that is that IBM is planning to bring 970+ to 2.5 GHz in 2004.
Err. Maybe it won't start out slower. SPEC scores aren't 100% accurate and Altivec may tip the scales.
Either way, this is a HUGE improvement over the G4. Apple is lucky IBM saved their butts. I don't know how much longer Mac users can deal with "speed envy."
Hopefully we won't have to wait much longer. My iBook is fast enough for general use, but the G4 I use for design is long in tooth. I could put a dual processor PPC970 machine to good use.
<strong>IBM is planning to bring 970+ to 2.5 GHz in 2004.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I was confused as to whether you meant it was just being brought to that speed or limited at that speed. I can't see that being its frequency cap but certainly that might be a number they aim for in scaling. They do seem to have a penchant for multiples of 0.2 GHz though. Not sure if there is a technical reason for that one or it is just coincidence.
<strong>
I was confused as to whether you meant it was just being brought to that speed or limited at that speed. I can't see that being its frequency cap but certainly that might be a number they aim for in scaling. They do seem to have a penchant for multiples of 0.2 GHz though. Not sure if there is a technical reason for that one or it is just coincidence.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I too, think it's just an introductory speed. IBM will release faster chips as they refine their manufacturing process like any chip maker.