Confirmed: Christians don't know right from wrong, either
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/25/we...ew/25lela.html
According to this article, people claiming to be "Christians" steal music almost as much as everyone else in the general population. It's sad enough that there are so few people today who really even know right from wrong , let alone do the hard work it takes to be honest. But to add insult to injury, I have to hear people congratulate themselves about their moral philosophies when they're happy to steal music or gossip all day about Laci's murder or Whitney's drug addiction.
Now this isn't just trolling against religion. We debate religion a lot, but right here is a new piece of *evidence* that all that going to church doesn't improve people. This article says that these Christians had to *debate* whether stealing music was OK. As an honorable person, I would not take something off your hands, that you made or produced, without meeting the terms that you asked. If U2 says they want to sell front row concert tickets to their fans for $25, they should be allowed to do that. That's what U2 wants and I wouldn't jump in the middle and try to make $100 as a scalper. AN HONORABLE PERSON ONLY TAKES SOMETHING AFTER MEETING THE AGREED UPON TERMS. They don't take it on their own terms just because they can get away with it. The only exceptions are if someone has a way of forcing you into unfair terms. If my car broke down in the desert and someone charged me $10,000 for the glass of water I needed, I'd feel justified in stealing it back. But that is the exception.
Another proof that going to church does nothing is the phenomenal growth of the gossip and trash industry since around 1985. People claim to be religious, but I can't even have peace because MANY RELIGIOUS PEOPLE (LIKE NON-RELIGIOUS PEOPLE) DON'T EVEN WANT PEACE. When I am on line in the supermarket, I don't want to see headlines on the National Enquirer saying "Whitney Houston beaten up by drug dealer". When I hear that Tom and Nicole are getting a divorce, I feel bad that people are going through a difficult thing. I feel the worst for the children. I think about how 10 years is a long time to spend with someone and how hard it must be to lose that. And then I want to forget about it and go on with my day. But yet other people, a good percentage of whom go to church every week, want this Tom and Nicole thing to be part of there lives 24 hours a day. Whether it's in gossip magazines, Entertainment Tonight, CNN or Fox News, or Jay Leno's monologue, people just can't get enough of it.
Now by the time I was a fifth grader I was more morally mature than at least half the people walking out the church door every Sunday. I really had more soul than to enjoy other people tragedy or to think that you could get something you really wanted for free, as if by magic. Do you folks that attend church really think that it makes the average person any better?
According to this article, people claiming to be "Christians" steal music almost as much as everyone else in the general population. It's sad enough that there are so few people today who really even know right from wrong , let alone do the hard work it takes to be honest. But to add insult to injury, I have to hear people congratulate themselves about their moral philosophies when they're happy to steal music or gossip all day about Laci's murder or Whitney's drug addiction.
Now this isn't just trolling against religion. We debate religion a lot, but right here is a new piece of *evidence* that all that going to church doesn't improve people. This article says that these Christians had to *debate* whether stealing music was OK. As an honorable person, I would not take something off your hands, that you made or produced, without meeting the terms that you asked. If U2 says they want to sell front row concert tickets to their fans for $25, they should be allowed to do that. That's what U2 wants and I wouldn't jump in the middle and try to make $100 as a scalper. AN HONORABLE PERSON ONLY TAKES SOMETHING AFTER MEETING THE AGREED UPON TERMS. They don't take it on their own terms just because they can get away with it. The only exceptions are if someone has a way of forcing you into unfair terms. If my car broke down in the desert and someone charged me $10,000 for the glass of water I needed, I'd feel justified in stealing it back. But that is the exception.
Another proof that going to church does nothing is the phenomenal growth of the gossip and trash industry since around 1985. People claim to be religious, but I can't even have peace because MANY RELIGIOUS PEOPLE (LIKE NON-RELIGIOUS PEOPLE) DON'T EVEN WANT PEACE. When I am on line in the supermarket, I don't want to see headlines on the National Enquirer saying "Whitney Houston beaten up by drug dealer". When I hear that Tom and Nicole are getting a divorce, I feel bad that people are going through a difficult thing. I feel the worst for the children. I think about how 10 years is a long time to spend with someone and how hard it must be to lose that. And then I want to forget about it and go on with my day. But yet other people, a good percentage of whom go to church every week, want this Tom and Nicole thing to be part of there lives 24 hours a day. Whether it's in gossip magazines, Entertainment Tonight, CNN or Fox News, or Jay Leno's monologue, people just can't get enough of it.
Now by the time I was a fifth grader I was more morally mature than at least half the people walking out the church door every Sunday. I really had more soul than to enjoy other people tragedy or to think that you could get something you really wanted for free, as if by magic. Do you folks that attend church really think that it makes the average person any better?
Comments
How about a study into human behavior, to see if civilized behavior has any correlation with adherence to a religion, any religion that is? Are belief systems necessary for humanity to advance in a positive fashion? My feelings are, no they are not. Others of course insist the opposite.
As long as any one religion is not a part of how a national government is constructed or run, which has never worked for the betterment of a society I dont care.
Stalin was an atheist...bin Laden is a believer.
Now, with all that said, I also think that Christianty does a lot of good for people. And I think that while there's definitely a number of people who are Christian by name only, I also think they're just the ones who are loudest and thus the ones you noticed. Many people who really follow Christ's precepts don't feel the need to trumpet their good works or their religous way of life. I've seen a lot of good done by Christian individulas, who step up and help people in their times of crisis, not preaching salvation, but being there to comfort and to listen.
No one's perfect and this idea of downloading free music is something kind of new and there was a long period of justification among both Christians and non-Christians. But I think that downloading free music is a pretty flimsy premise to condemn an entire religion as being no good and completely unhelpful.
Originally posted by spindler
Now by the time I was a fifth grader I was more morally mature than at least half the people walking out the church door every Sunday. I really had more soul than to enjoy other people tragedy or to think that you could get something you really wanted for free, as if by magic. Do you folks that attend church really think that it makes the average person any better?
Morally mature? Attending Church making you better?
First of all I think you're letting non-Christian thinking interfere with how you size up Christians. Maybe an unconscious Greek tendency towards a chain of being that you yourself have some mastery over.
Moral Maturity: If you have control over your own nature---ultimate control---then there must be some ideal that you are striving towards---some sor tof unity with ultimate unity, good, righteousness---whatever you want to call it. This is NOT a Christian concept.
Sanctification, however---when your nature is changed by forces outside of your [ultimate] control---you are given the spirit to move away form "the things You used to do". That is all, you still have the same temptations, but through prayer, physical and mental disicpine, and a lot of hard work, you can stop sinning as frequently as you used to. Since this is all accomplished by the Grace of God---you are not left with any bragging rights---just thankfullness to be justified and doing the Lord's Will.
On going to church---that is mostly generated by a desire to set time aside to show both corportate solidarity, and perform the act of worship.
Also, I wouldn't assume showing up for Church with the wrong attitude or the wrong reasons matter for anything except pretentiousness.
Christians face the same tempatations, wrestle with the same desires, feel the same way when they see a sunrise, and generally put their pants on one-leg-at-a-time as everyone else.
So what . . . non-Christians pirate music too . . . I know I sure do. . . . and guess what, I pretty much think of myself as an ethincal person . . with small lacunae here and there
Christians are people who are doing their best to live up to a standard they have chosen. Some do well, some don't do so well. Be careful not to lump all Christians into the same group as whatever Christians you have encountered that offend you. We, like all other billion-person groups, are quite diverse in our beliefs and lifestyles.
When was the last time YOU went to the church on which you are making this value judgment?
*Not knowing* right from wrong is much different than *knowing it* and then doing something else.
This thread IS USDA Choice 100% Organic Famebait.
Originally posted by Jubelum
"In truth there was only one true Christian, and he died on the Cross." - Nietzsche
This thread IS flamebait.
wow . . .I'm agreeng with Jubelum twice in one thread
Originally posted by pfflam
wow . . .I'm agreeng with Jubelum twice in one thread
... I love ya, man.
Originally posted by pfflam
Remember . . it is important for Christians to admit they are 'sinners' . . . it is part of the religion, they know their faults, that's what Jesus is all about.
It's the purpose of the christian church to remind people that jesus died because of THEM. I have never understood the logic with it. If the christianity does not believe in reincarnation (which is hasn't believed in the past nearly 1700 years), there is NO WAY I could be quilty for things that happened 2000 years before I was born and thousands of miles away.
But christians / pirates .. I would guess the rate of christians / non christians among the pirating population is about exactly the same as among the non-pirating population.
The more you know...
Do, do do...
This was the EXACT point of my post and why I really doubt that religion has much value as a method of getting them to act morally.
There are lots and lots of bad things you can do that wouldn't make me doubt the sincerity of your religious beliefs. You can have a bad temper and be difficult to those around you. You can steal some copier paper and staples from work. You can be angry and immature when you break up with your spouse and try and grab as many possessions from them as you can. You can do a lot of crummy things and still be conscious of them and attempting to be a better person.
But there are two things today at the top of my list that just don't fit in with making any sort of attempt at decency at all.
(1) How can people tune into Springer to see people personal tragedy and actually enjoy it? I think it's pretty basic to feel sad when you hear an 18 year old has two kids and another on the way. Desensitizing yourself to other people's pain just for giggles seems to be the exact opposite of caring about them. I don't view it as a "guilty pleasure" that people "just can't resist". If my sister was 50 pounds overweight I would want her to be happier by losing it. I wouldn't sit around all day drawing pictures of what she would look like 100 pounds heavier. I wouldn't giggle when people made fat jokes about her. It is obvious that the subject of her weight should only bother me and nothing else.
(2) If the church and the priest have any sort of power of teaching right or wrong, how can people NOT KNOW that you can't just get someone's work for free? I understand being lazy and stealing music. I understand making excuses like "This is wrong and when I graduate from college I'll have enough money to never do it again." But I just can't believe people could just stick their hand in someone else's pocket and feel no guilt about it. I can't see how that person can claim to even be in the ballpark when it comes to morality.
And I'm not even unreasonable about stealing music. If you have a comprehensive understanding of the music oligopoly I might accept stealing music as a conscientious behaviour, especially if you attempted to find a way to pay the artist directly. I have no love for the Big Five music labels that have taken all the originality and creativity out of music.
Originally posted by pfflam
So what . . . non-Christians pirate music too . . . I know I sure do. . . . and guess what, I pretty much think of myself as an ethincal person . . with small lacunae here and there
I was to think the real thought to come away from this is that just as there are good Christians and bad Christians, there are good non-religious people and bad non-religious people. Hence the notion of morality comes not from religion, but from something deeper in a person's psyche, completely independent of religion. Religion is and has served as anything but a surefire credential for morality. In fact, there are a million to one ways it can be perverted to lead you astray. One is better to avoid it altogether, to increase the odds of discovering true morality, imo.
My experiences with the last place I worked involved a very Catholic-bound sort of group. Through all of that, never have I witnessed a more socially backwards and ignorant group of people. I don't say this out of hate for Catholics or hate of religion. I say it out of disbelief that a group of people could be so devoid of independent thought and flawed "morality". As morality-oriented as the religion is, these people behaved in utter immorality while holding a judging eye over those who were not Catholic. The way these people behaved was a neverending cycle of backstabbing, lying, scheming, rascism, bigotry, blackmail, and coercion. What was "right" was defined more strongly by the directions the majority and seniority chose. What was "wrong" was doing or thinking anything that deviated from the majority. More often, their "right" was plainly morally wrong and socially destructive. However, they were none the wiser to realize this.
Religion is no cure for ignorance. It is no guarantee of enlightenment or morality. Religion combined with ignorance only makes for organized ignorance. The only thing that counters ignorance is the ability to think, contemplate, and ponder (things completely apart from religion). From my travels, I have come to believe more and more that it really only a small fraction of society that really "understands" and functions under true morality. The rest "think" they do or refute it willingly, but either way, they live only a few notches away from savages in an animal world (the one where you eliminate your competition in the most efficient manner possible in order to secure your own survival). This is not a reference to 3rd world countries or something as tiny like ripping off mp3's, either. I'm referring to people who live across a range of higher to lower class societies, but just don't "get" the principle of morality. They don't see others in society as people you live with and stand beside, but pegs on a ladder to step on only to reach a "higher" peg.
That said, I think it is possible to secure your own little circle of civil society in an insane world, but ultimately the human race is doomed by sheer ignorance and self-destructivity. It is majority ignorance that will eventually overwhelm all of the positive accomplishments that man has managed to attain.
Originally posted by neutrino23
It was ironic to hear that on Good Friday in Jerusalem as the true believers were following Christ's path to the crucifixion site they were being hawked bootleg DVDs of The Passion of Christ.
By Christians or Jews?
I'd like to see that story.
Originally posted by Jubelum
By Christians or Jews?
Why does it matter who?
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
Why does it matter who?
Seeing that we are discussing Christians and piracy, I would like to see the story to better understand it. It kinda changes my view a little if Christians are bootlegging movies - especially The Passion. I have not seen many muslims bootlegging The Satanic Verses. Context, my friend. 8)
The moral level of a man is just the record of his life, not the model he is supposed to follow. If the model help, him : great. Otherwise, having a model is not an excuse for our sins. Recocnizing our sins is also the first step for cure, because the denial do not allow the changes.
There is no need of any confirmation for a superior or inferior moral stance of christians or any religions groups. The title of this thread is pure flamebait anyway : dont know right from wrong either. I call this an oversimplification ; if the notion of right or wrong is limited to pirating music, the world is very limited.
Originally posted by spindler
Christians had to *debate* whether stealing music was OK.
it's not 'stealing,' it is copyright infringement. No one is being deprived of the object possessed.
As an honorable person, I would not take something off your hands, that you made or produced, ...
As stated above, nothing is being taken off of anyone's hands.
Honestly, you can't be christian if you think that Christians aren't people too. Like Powerdoc said, piracy is very limited and christianity is a model to try and follow. Being Lutheran I go every week to have my sins forgiven. It's about bettering yourself, not becoming perfect. The temptation to download music is the devil
They absolutely should debate it. It is not a black and white issue and there is no question that publishers are abusing copyright.
The argument that this thread is based on is false. Downloading music is not larceny. It is a copyright issue.