this is appalling, abuse of Iraqi prisoners

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Comments

  • Reply 121 of 578
    johnqjohnq Posts: 2,763member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by segovius

    Apparently this is a picture of Karpinski and it is clearly a different person than 'the kid'.

    ...

    It's from the notorious al basrah site though so who knows ?




    Once again, I was previously corrected: "the kid" woman is not Karpinski. I mistook a juxtapositioning for a caption, which was wrong.



    "The Kid" is Private Lyndie England (google)



    And yes, (shudder) it has already begun: The Jessica Lynchization of Private Lynndie England. I've already heard complete strangers defending her and calling her Lynndie. (First name basis is the first sign of The Hero Worship Process).
  • Reply 122 of 578
    johnqjohnq Posts: 2,763member




    Karpinski is right outta Doonesbury.
  • Reply 123 of 578
    moogsmoogs Posts: 4,296member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by johnq

    Once again, I was previously corrected: "the kid" woman is not Karpinski. I mistook a juxtapositioning for a caption, which was wrong.



    Sorry. My timing just sucks in this thread. I try to scan through as I go but sometimes I miss stuff.





    Quote:

    And yes, (shudder) it has already begun: The Jessica Lynchization of Private Lynndie England. I've already heard complete strangers defending her and calling her Lynndie. (First name basis is the first sign of The Hero Worship Process).



    Disgusting.
  • Reply 124 of 578
    burningwheelburningwheel Posts: 1,827member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by segovius

    Looks like the soldiers have merely recieved a reprimand.



    I don't know how serious a punishment this is so anyone who does might weigh-in with some analysis but it seems to me that this statement:







    is far from what is necessary and possibly a mistake in terms of perceptions in the region of the military's attitude to this sort of thing.




    if this is true. it's very weak. i mean they even killed one guy from what i read
  • Reply 125 of 578
    piwozniakpiwozniak Posts: 815member
    They didn't kill anyone. ....he tripped.



    Photos are fake, no-one is being mistreated, Karpinski didn't know, anything, and these soldiers' careers MAY be in serious jeopardy... move on, nothing happened.



    Bad soldiers, bad...





    i wonder what would happen if Hamil would say that he was forced to endure such a things. US would probably just nuked these damn barbaric, dirty terrorists.
  • Reply 126 of 578
    anandanand Posts: 285member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by johnq





    Karpinski is right outta Doonesbury.






    That is hilarious!



  • Reply 127 of 578
    anandanand Posts: 285member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Smircle

    What is quite interesting is the sexual undercurrent and the efford to humiliate in a lot of the tortures reported. This is no honest-to-god rough 'em up torture to get people to talk, but here is a deep ingrained hatred showing. Those torture techniques serve no direct purpose (like sleep deprivation) but reinforce a position of dominance. There are a lot of incidents related to castration (threatening to machine-gun genitals, wiring a penis) and sexual humiliation by "reducing" a hetero to a gay (staged fellatio).



    Anyone claiming this is merely a bunch of soldiers losing touch with reality is only fooling himself. To stage such elaborate forms of sexual torture shows a very sadist streak. Things like this have always happened in war, but mostly when one party was fighting because of racial prejudices (Yugoslavia, NS Germany) or to exterminate the other side.



    To me, this is even more shocking than seing the Geneve convention trampled on. This has turned into a crusade all right where the winners have long stopped to see themselves as liberators (you don't do such things if you have positive feelings).



    There is a connection to the concentration camp of Guantano bay. When the miliary leader goes on record denying captured enemys basic rights, the lower ranks will likely see this as a ticket to do the same.




    You are 100% right. This is not torture for any purpose but rather the sadistic humiliation that someone like Sadam would perform. We have come full circle.
  • Reply 128 of 578
    johnqjohnq Posts: 2,763member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by segovius





    Glad it's taken in the spirit that I intended.
  • Reply 129 of 578
    beige_g3beige_g3 Posts: 203member
    johnq:



    I admire your optimism, but I don't share it on this issue. Perhaps I have been surrounded by Texans too long

    \





    I do not think that 2000 election trends mean much today. The US has changed a lot since 9/11/2001. I really doubt hat the average American is too concerned about these prisoners. How concerned does main stream America get when an African American or a hispanic is abused by the Police in one of our own cities?
  • Reply 130 of 578
    smirclesmircle Posts: 1,035member
    So, what now?

    The lady was running Abu-Ghureib like some demented SS bitch from a 70s Ilsa exploitation flick, her underlings free to act out racial hatred to a random mix of thugs and civilians picked from the street and detained without fair trial. Prisoners are tortured and then kept as long as it takes for the bruises to go away so they have no proof, at least two guys killed by special forces at an interrogation (plus nearly twenty who died of natural or unknown courses). Even a military investigation admitting it is a systematic problem and now the first accounts from Afghanistan.



    Where is the outcry, where is the reaction? The Iraqi minister for human rights steps back, because he had given Bremer a warning about torture under US hand back in Dec and nothing resulted. And that's about it - oh yes, six GIs are reprimanded and another series of investigations launched while the chimp tries to sweet-talk arabian TV stations. And the leader of the Guantanamo camp is transferred to Iraq - great move, he knows how to silence people.



    Hello? Court martial? International trial for jackbooting the Geneva convention? Rummie whipped out of office for disorderly conduct?

    Is there still anything amounting to a critical voice in todays US media, or isn't it rather that most americans are quietly grinning because they are supportive of giving the sand niggers a good going over?



    I sincerely hope this is coming around and biting the US in their collective asses big, big time.
  • Reply 131 of 578
    johnqjohnq Posts: 2,763member
    Would that I could be desensitized to your cynicism, anti-West bias, generalizations and dimestore mass-psychology analysis.
  • Reply 132 of 578
    newnew Posts: 3,244member
    There is an outcry over here at least. Norwegian papers are running these stories oon the front page almost every other day now. Today one of the biggest papers had the photos of an apache helicopter executing an iraqi on the front page.



    The US has never had lower respect here. not even during Vietnam.
  • Reply 133 of 578
    johnqjohnq Posts: 2,763member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by segovius

    So we're back to Smircle's question - why no outrage in the US ?



    How do people reach the state where they can perpetrate these things ?



    Is the difference between Saddam's Iraq and Bush's US merely one of ideology ? It's ok if we do it because we're not them and they are evil whereas we are not ?




    There's all kinds of outcry and controversy over here about it. It's all over the news.



    Come on...



    If I can't comment on Damascus because I've never been there, maybe you shouldn't comment on the U.S. while perched in the E.U.



    Seriously, where are you getting your news? Rhetorical question. Any news source that doesn't fit your preconceived notions is merely "in bed with Blair|Bush|Cheney". Fuhgetaboutit.



    No, no one here cares enough to, say, immolate themselves over it in protest (would Iraqis do so for any American issues they hear about? Nah, didn't think so). But there surely is a lot of earnest, outraged chatter about it. Lots of demands for investigations, reform, punishment and apologies.
  • Reply 134 of 578
    johnqjohnq Posts: 2,763member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by segovius But they would have actually done nothing. Sweet FA. Just like they will do nothing now. You may think me cynical or anti-western but that's only to the extent that we seem incapable of generating a sincere, honest and moral leader. Why the hell, can't we just have someone who takes control and actually makes things better, even (God help us) actually back up all the bs they keep spouting with some action.[/B]



    Ok, so why doesn't Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero take a more aggressive leadership role and go to the UN and E.U. and NATO and demand this and that solution for Iraq? Why can't he proactively try to fix the mess? Because he only cares enough to be able to pull out, to cement support for himself in his country by following through with his election promises and taking a back seat driver, I-told-you-so approach to world affairs.



    He was the brightest hope, everyone's darling little anti-Bush. Let's see what he contributes to counter Bush's preemptive wars. Yes, Zapatero is critical, but it takes more than easy criticism to fix things.
  • Reply 135 of 578
    johnqjohnq Posts: 2,763member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by segovius

    You may think me cynical or anti-western but that's only to the extent that we seem incapable of generating a sincere, honest and moral leader.



    Here they screw you over just as much (in different ways) but they lie about it and cover it over so you vote for them again. Then they call it 'Democracy'. I call it 'Turkeys voting for Xmas'. [/B]



    (Typed this while you typed the above re: it's not about Bush)



    Most Americans did not vote for Bush.

    I did not vote for Bush.

    I will not vote for Bush.

    Most people most likely will not vote for Bush again. Unless we are attacked, ironically. Al Qaeda loves Bush, so it's eerily likely to happen.



    Not sure what else we can do to satisfy you (not that that is what we are put on Earth to do). Any decent impeachment process would take until at least November anyway.



    Kick back and wait it out. He'll get voted out and will be a passé joke, barely remembered.
  • Reply 136 of 578
    zarathustrazarathustra Posts: 264member
    As I was on the way to work today I listened to the radio (Radio 4 BBC) and read a newspaper.



    On the radio I listened to reports of abuse to prisoners in Iraq. I'd seen the pictures British and American before, but the reporter stated that at least two murders of prisoners had been committed, had been investigated and the people responsible had been dismissed from the military as punishment.



    I read my paper as I listened and saw a report of video tapes 'smuggled' out of Iraq originating in the cockpit (?) of a helicopter. The report alleged that the tapes (audio & video) showed the crew of the helicopter executing injured, unarmed Iraqi troops. Apparantly the helicopter attacked, a truck was damaged and the Iraqis in it either injured or killed. Someone saw one injured soldier discard his rifle and then was instructed to shoot him.



    The tapes were allegedly shown on US TV. Was there any reaction?



    Has there been any reaction to the letting off with being fired of people who have murdered prisoners?



    Just had a chance to read today's Independent:



    Quote:

    In Washington, an army official revealed that one US soldier was convicted of murder for shooting a prisoner to death in September 2003 at a detention centre in Iraq.



    But at least its being addressed...



    Quote:

    Mr Rumsfeld... said: "We're taking and will continue to take whatever steps are necessary to hold accountable those that may have violated the code of military conduct and betrayed the trust placed in them by the American people."



    and...



    Quote:

    National Security Adviser, Condoleezza Rice, told the Qatar-based al-Jazeera television network yesterday: "We have a democratic system that holds people accountable for their actions."



    Or not...



    Quote:

    The soldier - convicted by court martial - was thrown out of the service but did not serve time in jail. The official said that the soldier shot the prisoner after he had thrown stones at him.



    _





    _



  • Reply 137 of 578
    smirclesmircle Posts: 1,035member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by johnq



    If I can't comment on Damascus because I've never been there, maybe you shouldn't comment on the U.S. while perched in the E.U.



    Seriously, where are you getting your news?




    You know, there's this web thing, that came out of nowhere barely 10 years ago.



    I doubt you speak one word Syrian (or whatever they speak in Damascus), but I know enough English to read US news outlets and even compare what they write with the information presented on german news sites. There are some obvious differences and this is what I was referring to.



    Speaking about "a couple of rotten apples", finger-pointing to private military contractors who overstepped their limits, reprimanding and relocating those bastards to the homeland (quite a punishment, indeed) instead of court-marshalling them on the place - this reeks of cover-up.



    What has become of the idea that ministers have to take political responsibility if their underlings misbehave?



    However, blaming Zapatero is really, really low. YOUR country has produced the torturers, NOT his. He merely knew what kind of hopeless quagmire this has become.

    However, I guess you firmly believe in sticking with the team no matter what happens and always finding some other culprit... Maybe it's all a fabrication of the liberal press? Maybe they were the one who made up the WoMD myth too?
  • Reply 138 of 578
    johnqjohnq Posts: 2,763member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Smircle

    You know, there's this web thing, that came out of nowhere barely 10 years ago.



    I doubt you speak one word Syrian (or whatever they speak in Damascus), but I know enough English to read US news outlets and even compare what they write with the information presented on german news sites. There are some obvious differences and this is what I was referring to.





    You are under a misapprehension.



    My "Damascus" comment was alluding to another thread, wherein it was suggested that since I hadn't been to (any particular Arab city/country) that I wasn't fit to have the opinions I have. I then outlined how that would doom that vast majority of humans from ever being allowed to have opinions about myriad other countries, since they've never been to them. (Can't find the thread)



    I concluded with precisely your point, that one can glean facts and formulate realistic opinions of places they've never been to or people they've never met.



    So you needn't tell me that.



    I did however, see fit to apply the same knowingly flawed logic to segovius - for effect. (Since I seem to think it was segovius I had talked with previously)



    As good as the internet is, it can't prevent human's from doing what they do best - finding what they want to find. We simply gravitate to sources that validate our preconceived notions. Then the rest of the time is spent going to other places and touting the found "facts". I do it, you do it. It's human. All we can do is try to be fairer and avoid doing it.



    Quote:

    Originally posted by Smircle

    However, blaming Zapatero is really, really low. YOUR country has produced the torturers, NOT his. He merely knew what kind of hopeless quagmire this has become.



    I didn't blame him. I did accuse him of only doing precisely enough to satisfy his constituency. But he is not the statesman people pretend he is. I'm saying is there not another leader that can rally credible opposition to the US's current foreign policy? Our only choices are gung-ho Blairs, meek tag-alongs like the rest of the nameless, unremarkable leaders of the other countries of the <cough> "Coalition of the <hack> Willing" and people who talk a good talk (Spain/Germany/France) as far as opposing the war but never seem to really do anything about it.



    Ok, Bush sucks, we get it, we get it. Now what? I'd love the U.S. to fix things but at some point when do the rest of the countries take initiative?



    Why is leaving when it is a quagmire a good thing? I Would think Spain could buddy up with Iraqi leadership and have the Spanish troops repositioned and reassigned to humanitarian efforts, rebuilding etc. (and if they were already doing that, kudos, but why stop? Just to spite Bush?)





    Quote:

    Originally posted by Smircle

    However, I guess you firmly believe in sticking with the team no matter what happens and always finding some other culprit... Maybe it's all a fabrication of the liberal press? Maybe they were the one who made up the WoMD myth too?



    hehe....team....Buddy, I'm more anti Bush than you are probably. Let's not get silly and slander me by pigeonholing me into what you think my political affiliations are. I have no such foolish theories.



    ...other foolish theories maybe. But not those.
  • Reply 139 of 578
    giantgiant Posts: 6,041member
    Kevin Drum dug up an old story from CNN in january about the prisoner abuses:



    http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/01/20/spr...use/index.html



    He points out that it took release of the pictures for the facts to really hit home and wake everyone up to what was going on.
  • Reply 140 of 578
    haraldharald Posts: 2,152member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by johnq



    Why is leaving when it is a quagmire a good thing? I Would think Spain could buddy up with Iraqi leadership and have the Spanish troops repositioned and reassigned to humanitarian efforts, rebuilding etc. (and if they were already doing that, kudos, but why stop? Just to spite Bush?)




    Naïve johnq (with respect).



    The Iraqi "leadership" is the American army and John Bremer right now. Especially wrt anything military.



    "Hi General Abizaid, there's going to be some Spaniards around Baghdad rebuilding things. We've checked with the Interim thingy you set up and they're cool with it. Don't shoot them please! Your chum, Zap."



    Spain should stop so that MAYBE Arbusto could see that either you do it with the support of the international community -- yep, the UN -- or you don't do it all. The Pentagon has made a royal fuck-up of Iraq and anyone who refuses to take military commands from the US is being emminently sensible.



    Don't forget that the US could have a bunch more soldiers, money and support if it went the UN route ... but it would no longer be in a position to ensure that US companies profit almost exclusively in the rebuild, and that there was a nice fat US army base next to Iran and Syria over the next few years.
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