Music Theory Question

Posted:
in iPod + iTunes + AppleTV edited January 2014
So this week I have immersed myself a good bit in GarageBand, and have come up with some nice results. My background is that I have no formal musical education whatever, but I do have a very good ear for music and can pick up tunes quickly, etc.



What I have found is that, with GB, it is quite easy for me to experiment and create 2.5 to 4 minute songs with a nice degree of complexity and nuance to them, but I don't fully understand (for example) what I am doing to the sound of my song if I create a new one with settings of



"Time 4/4 , Key C"



vs



"Time 6/8, Key C"



or



"Time 4/4, Key C#"



I presume the pound sign refers to "C Flat" (Or "C Minor"?), but even there I'm a little unclear as to the difference between any particular key and its flat / minor variant. For starters, which letter of the "key spectrum" [represents the high tones, and which represents the lowest]? And secondarily, if I import Loop 1 into a document that I have set with a high key... and then into another document that I have set with a low key, will the loop sound different?



I do understand tempo (thankfully) but I wanted to get these things cleared up because I'm not really sure if the local settings in any given document (relative to the saved settings of a Loop) override one way or another.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 56
    eugeneeugene Posts: 8,254member
    # = sharp
  • Reply 2 of 56
    wrong robotwrong robot Posts: 3,907member
    C# Major has 7 sharps



    C#-D#-E#-F#-G#-A#-B#



    So, it's basically the same as C natural, except everything is a raised a half-step.



    The opposite of that would be Cb



    Which has 7 Flats



    Cb-Db-Eb-Fb-Gb-Ab-Bb



    So, it's like C natural except you lower every note by a half step.



    C minor is very different, C minor would be

    C-D-Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb-C



    Since you said you know virtually nothing about music theory, I recommend you check out this *very* good introduction to chord/scale theory



    Intro To Chord/scale Theory



    It was written by a bassist, for bassists, but the theory is universal, just transpose the bass clef stuff to treble or whatever.



    Another neat place is www.musictheory.net



    and a great book is "the jazz theory book" by Mark levine.
  • Reply 3 of 56
    shetlineshetline Posts: 4,695member
    I know enough about the basics of music theory to know what keys like "C# major" and "D minor" mean, and I'm familiar with how minor keys can differ in sonic character from major keys (tending to sound more somber, typically), but what I've never understood is why a composer picks a particular key for a particular composition.



    Most people don't have absolute pitch, not even a lot of musicians, so you can transpose a piece up and down a few tones and, without a side-by-side comparision, many people wouldn't even notice the difference. Is there some overall mood or character that a composer hopes to convey through the key of a composition, and the central pitch of the sound that the key brings, even if that sonic character will only be vaguely, if at all, noticed by many listeners?



    BTW, is it just a movie cliche when a singer off-hand tells a pianist or band "[insert song name here], in F, please", and just like that, the players are on-the-fly transposing a known piece of music into a different key? How common is that kind of performance talent?



    If you're playing an electronic instrument, sure, that might be an easy adjustment to make, but otherwise, your fingers are suddenly needing to strike/strum/press a whole different set of keys/strings/valves than you'd have practiced at before. Anyway, getting off topic here, but that kind of talent (however common or rare it is in the real world) amazes me.
  • Reply 4 of 56
    wrong robotwrong robot Posts: 3,907member
    Well, key is relative. The composer may want the song to be in a particular key, but just because I want to play it in a different key doesn't make it any less correct. There are some things that are in specific keys because of instruments, but for the most part it is fairly arbitrary. Well, that is to say, major keys are easily interchangeable with other major keys, I wouldn't say "let's play this tune that's supposed to be in C major in C minor" because chances are that would create harmonic conflicts in the melody, not saying it can't be done, but it's certainly not common.





    In music theory(jazz and classical*) Harmonic Analysis is very important, and one of the most used skills you learn. Basically this assigns a function to each chord. So, say you have a progression that is:



    Cmaj7 - Fmaj7 - Dmin7- G7- Cmaj7



    We would analyze that as (Using roman numerals to indicate the function of the chord.)



    Imaj7 - IVmaj7 - IImin7 - V7- Imaj7



    So, this might seem a little weird, but once analyzed, the progression becomes universal.



    So, if you're in C major, the I chord will be Cmaj7 but if you are in Eb major, the I will be Ebmaj7



    That same progression in Eb Major would be



    Ebmaj7- Abmaj7- Fmin7 - Bb7 - Ebmaj7



    dig?



    As far as singers saying "let's do such and such in F" firstly, this is very common, with singers, or without, any seasoned jazz player will be able to play any common standard in any key. Also, not every Singer has a 4 octave vocal range, and additionally, not every singers range starts and stops at the same notes. Some singers have great difficulty singing in certain keys, so they transpose tunes to keys that fit their vocal range and singing style better.



    Transposing on the fly isn't really that gnarly, if you know your key signatures and your scales perfectly, You shouldn't have any problem with it. Additionally, guitar players have it really easy because they just shift positions(for the most part) where the fingerings are almost identical just starting at a different point.









    *I studied classical theory for about 2 years, learned the basics, but berklee is all about jazz theory, so that's what I've been doing for the past semester. They are very similar in may ways(vocabulary and such), but in application and usage and rules, they differ greatly. I would say I have a firm understanding of basic theory and a good understanding of some more advanced concepts, but I am by no means fluent in this stuff.
  • Reply 5 of 56
    wrong robotwrong robot Posts: 3,907member
    dur, I just reread the initial post. The key of the song in GB only effects loops. If you don't use loops, it's fairly meaningless, except for your own personal reference.
  • Reply 6 of 56
    ludwigvanludwigvan Posts: 458member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by shetline

    I know enough about the basics of music theory to know what keys like "C# major" and "D minor" mean, and I'm familiar with how minor keys can differ in sonic character from major keys (tending to sound more somber, typically), but what I've never understood is why a composer picks a particular key for a particular composition.



    Most people don't have absolute pitch, not even a lot of musicians, so you can transpose a piece up and down a few tones and, without a side-by-side comparision, many people wouldn't even notice the difference. Is there some overall mood or character that a composer hopes to convey through the key of a composition, and the central pitch of the sound that the key brings, even if that sonic character will only be vaguely, if at all, noticed by many listeners?




    Not much these days, but back prior to, say, the late 19th century, pitch (how many Hz is the A above middle C?) nor temperament (the amount of "tonal space" between two adjacent keys on the keyboard and along the octave span) were standardized. Whereas today A = 440Hz and equal temperament rules supreme, the tonal layout of earlier music allowed for different musical colors depending on the key chosen and the temperament (Pythagorean temperament, meantone tuning, Werkmeister III tuning, etc). That is why such composers/theorists as Christian Schubart, a Mozart contemporary, were able to give descriptive names to various keys. Some famous composers did the same: Beethoven once described B minor as a "black key" and implied that D-flat major was somehow majestic or spiritual in a way (witness the slow movement from his last string quartet).



    And not only did tonal color vary, but - as is the case nowadays - many instruments exhibit unique sound properties depending on the key they play in. For example, violins tend to resonate a little more in keys that are sharp, because the strings that are not touched by the fingers or played upon by the bow vibrate a little more. The standard tuning of violin strings bears this out (from low to high): G - D - A - E.



    Many instruments can have their tuning altered so that other keys would resonate with the instrument. For strings, this is called "scordatura" tuning; H.I.F. Biber was a master at this (a Salzburg composer active about a generation before J.S. Bach).



    Quote:

    BTW, is it just a movie cliche when a singer off-hand tells a pianist or band "[insert song name here], in F, please", and just like that, the players are on-the-fly transposing a known piece of music into a different key? How common is that kind of performance talent?



    Any musician worth their salt should be able to transpose on the fly.



    When it comes to vocal music, singers simply have an easier time with songs that are written in/transposed to certain keys. You'll often find classical Lieder (art songs) available in two versions, one for high voice (soprano or tenor) and one for low voice (alto or bass), one being in the original key and the accomodating the range of the other through transposition.



    Quote:

    If you're playing an electronic instrument, sure, that might be an easy adjustment to make, but otherwise, your fingers are suddenly needing to strike/strum/press a whole different set of keys/strings/valves than you'd have practiced at before. Anyway, getting off topic here, but that kind of talent (however common or rare it is in the real world) amazes me.



    Damn straight! There's a story that Beethoven once performed his 2nd piano concerto in B-flat transposed. The piano he was using was tuned a half-step too high, so while the orchestra performed the piece in the prescribed B-flat major, Beethoven performed his part on the piano playing in B major!
  • Reply 7 of 56
    amorphamorph Posts: 7,112member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by shetline

    If you're playing an electronic instrument, sure, that might be an easy adjustment to make, but otherwise, your fingers are suddenly needing to strike/strum/press a whole different set of keys/strings/valves than you'd have practiced at before. Anyway, getting off topic here, but that kind of talent (however common or rare it is in the real world) amazes me.



    And, of course, some instruments just don't do some keys well. I remember when our guitarist brought the band a song in F and the fiddle player just about rammed it down his throat. She instituted a "no songs in F" policy that's held pretty well since.



    As for the time signatures (4/4, 6/8) the first number is the number of beats in a measure (what you'd count: 1, 2, 3, 4 or 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6) and which note gets the count (2 = half note, 4 = quarter note, 8 = eighth note - you hardly ever see anything else).



    Wikipedia has a solid, if technical entry on the subject.



    Some common time signatures:



    4/4, or "common time" is nearly ubiquitous. If you hear (or can imagine) someone starting the song with the classic "1! 2! 3! 4!" countoff, it's in 4/4.



    3/4, sometimes "waltz time", is used in waltzes (no, really!), minuets, drinking songs, polka, Latin music (because of the German influence) and country.



    2/2, or "cut time," is common in marches and rare everywhere else. "It's a Grand Old Flag" is exemplary.



    6/8 is fairly common in R&B, although its "bouncy" feel makes it into pop sometimes. Al Green's cover of "Funny How Time Slips Away" is a slow 6/8.



    Dave Brubeck's "Take Five" is in 5/8.



    My band's "Branches of Willow" is alternating bars of 5/8 and 6/8 in the verse, with the chorus in 6/8.
  • Reply 8 of 56
    wrong robotwrong robot Posts: 3,907member
    Tool and Radiohead have many songs in some very peculiar time signatures, and unlike many other bands that seem to throw in odd time sigs for the sake of it, the aforementioned always seem to have a natural feel to their odd signatures which is cool.



    I just heard about this drummer at berklee, japanese kid, he tested in at all the highest levels, apparently his level of proficiency is such that you can tell him "play 4/4 in your right hand, 9/8 with the kick, 5/4 with the hi hat and 14/8 with your left" and he will.



    of course, that's just through the grapevine talk, I haven't met him.
  • Reply 9 of 56
    ludwigvanludwigvan Posts: 458member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Amorph

    Some common time signatures:



    ...



    Dave Brubeck's "Take Five" is in 5/8.




    A famous classical piece in 5/8 is "Mars" from Holst's The Planets. Give that one a listen, especially the Dutoit/Montreal Symphony Orchestra performance. Expect "Star Wars" to come to mind during the festivities.
  • Reply 10 of 56
    wrong robotwrong robot Posts: 3,907member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Beeth oven

    A famous classical piece in 5/8 is "Mars" from Holst's The Planets. Give that one a listen, especially the Dutoit/Montreal Symphony Orchestra performance. Expect "Star Wars" to come to mind during the festivities.



    I like the planets suite, good stuff.



    Ya know, it's funny, pretty much any example of outside the box contemporary music has already been done before in the classical world!



    My ear training teacher was telling us about a piece he was doing in his orchestra(he plays upright bass), something like 19/8 and 6/8 layered together with accents on the off beats.
  • Reply 11 of 56
    amorphamorph Posts: 7,112member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Wrong Robot

    I just heard about this drummer at berklee, japanese kid, he tested in at all the highest levels, apparently his level of proficiency is such that you can tell him "play 4/4 in your right hand, 9/8 with the kick, 5/4 with the hi hat and 14/8 with your left" and he will.



    I can believe it.



    There's a story where Joe Morello (the drummer in the Dave Brubeck Quartet and one of the greatest drummers ever) was giving a clinic and talking about limb independence (the idea, as above, that what any one limb is doing doesn't depend on what any other limb is doing). Someone in the audience interrupted him to say that there was no such thing - you just memorized a lot of different combinations of time signatures.



    So Joe waited this out, and then started playing four different time signatures at once with his limbs while delivering a off-the-cuff lecture on the nature and fact of limb independence. He'd rotate the time signatures through his limbs in mid-sentence just to drive the point home.



    He's a master of the intuitive-sounding odd time signature. I remember in college talking to a dancer who swore up and down that "Take Five" was a waltz, that it wasn't in 5. So I played it and had her dance a waltz to it. It took a long time to convince her, though, just because 5 is "supposed to" sound funny, and that song sounds completely natural.
  • Reply 12 of 56
    resres Posts: 711member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by shetline

    -snip-

    BTW, is it just a movie cliche when a singer off-hand tells a pianist or band "[insert song name here], in F, please", and just like that, the players are on-the-fly transposing a known piece of music into a different key? How common is that kind of performance talent?



    If you're playing an electronic instrument, sure, that might be an easy adjustment to make, but otherwise, your fingers are suddenly needing to strike/strum/press a whole different set of keys/strings/valves than you'd have practiced at before. Anyway, getting off topic here, but that kind of talent (however common or rare it is in the real world) amazes me.




    Once you've mastered an instrument transposing a song is not hard, and just about any professional musician will be able to transpose on the fly without a problem.
  • Reply 13 of 56
    moogsmoogs Posts: 4,296member
    Thanks for all the replies (and to Shetline for perhaps phrasing some things more cleverly than I could have, not knowing any theory at all really). I will check out some of those sites before posting more questions as I have a feeling I'm not understanding a couple concepts correctly.



    I did a little testing and it *seems* like running up the default piano keyboard instrument in say C vs. E, does have an effect on the sound. Also, in my meanderings I found that there is some serious ability to control loops in the Audio Units effect area.



    GarageBand really seems to me to be more of a prosumer type app, if you explore all its options. Pretty powerful.
  • Reply 14 of 56
    wrong robotwrong robot Posts: 3,907member
    Garageband is such a great program. And it can only get better...much better. (3rd party support, apple support..etc.)



    For the Avid Garageband user, you owe it to yourself to check out www.iCompositions.com 100MB free webspace to host your creations, amazing team of administrators, and a vast amount of good music.



    (My handle over there is 'wrao'
  • Reply 15 of 56
    crazychestercrazychester Posts: 1,339member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Amorph

    I remember in college talking to a dancer who swore up and down that "Take Five" was a waltz, that it wasn't in 5. So I played it and had her dance a waltz to it. It took a long time to convince her, though, just because 5 is "supposed to" sound funny, and that song sounds completely natural.



    Wow. That's interesting. I've actually been working on a combination with some of my dance students over the last few weeks that goes to Take Five. I know it's in 5's (actually I thought it was 5/4 - but close enough). But every time we do the combo in class, I find myself thinking it "feels" like a waltz.
  • Reply 16 of 56
    moogsmoogs Posts: 4,296member
    Thanks Robot. I will keep an eye on that site. Looks like they are creating their own loop download resources in the near future. Would be great to have a place to go for quality-controlled (for lack of a better term), royalty free loops. Also the forums look pretty useful. So anyway here's what I think I've learned today; correct me if I'm wrong:





    The most common key for rock, jazz, dance music, etc. is C. It is basically a "happy medium" among the keys and contains an equal number of high and low pitched notes, rather than being staggered or "tilted" towards either tonal direction.



    The most common Time is 4/4.



    Tone and pitch can be used interchangeably when describing a note or collection of notes within a song, and are just general terms to describe how we perceive sound waves. Subjective IOW, not mathematical or otherwise describable by physical models.







    Here's what I still am unsure of:





    In GB, when I have a loop, it is by definition in a certain key, which means its notes will be staggered towards the high end of the scale or low end unless it's in C. If I have a song I created in a different key, when I drop that loop in as a track, which key will it be referencing when I play it?



    Same with Tempo. If I have a loop that's 96 tempo, and I drop it into a song that's 116, which takes precedence when I play that loop?



    When using the AU effects, if I go in and change a bunch of them for a particular track, have I changed the default setting for that effect? Seems like the changes I make persist from track to track and song to song. Is there a way to "reset to default?"
  • Reply 17 of 56
    wrong robotwrong robot Posts: 3,907member
    C is not necessarily the most common key, it is however very common when learning theory because it doesn't have any sharps or flats.



    if you look at a piano The Key of C major is all the white keys, it's usually used as a reference key because of this. (Though I'm from the school of thought that it's better to teach people keys with sharps and flats from the get go instead of bouncing everything off C ya know?)



    The other 'all whites' Key is A minor which is the relative minor of C, which, for someone that doesn't know any theory that might be a little bit much to throw at you just yet



    Quote:

    In GB, when I have a loop, it is by definition in a certain key, which means its notes will be staggered towards the high end of the scale or low end unless it's in C. If I have a song I created in a different key, when I drop that loop in as a track, which key will it be referencing when I play it?



    Well, one of the great things about GB is it's advanced Key correction. So, when you take a live audio loop(blue loop), it will always be in the key of the song(what you set) This is irrelevant when working with MIDI, because MIDI is more modular in this respect.



    Same with Tempo, if the loop is supposed to be played at 101 BPM, you can make it play at whatever and it will still retain the same pitches. though when you stretch it to the extreme things get a little muddled.



    I barely use AU effects so I can't help you with that question.
  • Reply 18 of 56
    scottibscottib Posts: 381member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Amorph

    Dave Brubeck's "Take Five" is in 5/8.



    I thought "Take 5" was in 5/4 (at least that's how I've always played/felt it...3/4+2/4).
  • Reply 19 of 56
    amorphamorph Posts: 7,112member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by scottiB

    I thought "Take 5" was in 5/4 (at least that's how I've always played/felt it...3/4+2/4).



    According to the liner notes, it's in 5/8.



    Not that it makes all that much difference in practice, if you're talking about the time signature for an entire song...
  • Reply 20 of 56
    wrong robotwrong robot Posts: 3,907member
    I've always thought it to be 5/4 as well, Later Brubeck released a song in 10/8, it was like the sequel to take 5 or something, I never heard it though
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