You might be thinking of Blue Rondo a la Turk as that 10/8 tune. Great tune. As for Take 5 feeling like a waltz, maybe it just a "raggy" waltz.
As for music theory, I've always felt myself at a disadvantage because I'm not a keyboard player. Every time I try and figure something out theory-wise, I end up fingering through it in my head on the sax. Everyone tells me (and I believe it) that it's a lot easier to be able to picture things on a keyboard. That's why I'm stuck thinking in numbers, and haven't been too successful in translating those to specific keys. One of my goals for this summer is to gain some keyboard proficiency. Hey, I already know QWERTY and Dvorak, how hard could piano be.
You might be thinking of Blue Rondo a la Turk as that 10/8 tune. Great tune. As for Take 5 feeling like a waltz, maybe it just a "raggy" waltz.
As for music theory, I've always felt myself at a disadvantage because I'm not a keyboard player. Every time I try and figure something out theory-wise, I end up fingering through it in my head on the sax. Everyone tells me (and I believe it) that it's a lot easier to be able to picture things on a keyboard. That's why I'm stuck thinking in numbers, and haven't been too successful in translating those to specific keys. One of my goals for this summer is to gain some keyboard proficiency. Hey, I already know QWERTY and Dvorak, how hard could piano be.
indeed, Piano is very important, well, proficiency with any chordal instrument gives you an edge I think. As a Bass player, I have a foot in chords, but only having 4 strings, The voicings I can use are limited.
You could master your arpeggios, that'd help a lot.
Not much these days, but back prior to, say, the late 19th century, pitch (how many Hz is the A above middle C?) nor temperament (the amount of "tonal space" between two adjacent keys on the keyboard and along the octave span) were standardized. Whereas today A = 440Hz and equal temperament rules supreme, the tonal layout of earlier music allowed for different musical colors depending on the key chosen and the temperament (Pythagorean temperament, meantone tuning, Werkmeister III tuning, etc). That is why such composers/theorists as Christian Schubart, a Mozart contemporary, were able to give descriptive names to various keys. Some famous composers did the same: Beethoven once described B minor as a "black key" and implied that D-flat major was somehow majestic or spiritual in a way (witness the slow movement from his last string quartet).
Ludwig, I'm trying to understand what you are saying here, but I'm being a bit daft. Are the different temperaments your talking about different scales (different combinations of whole and half steps) or where they dividing an octave up in differnt ways other than the current 12 divisions? If the former, then I don't see how a different key has a fundamentally different feel to it.
Brubeck has always been one of my favourites, in part due to rhythmic complexity.
Take Five and Blue Rondo, particularly in their extended versions on "Live in Moscow" are gems.
Sting has had some experiments with tempo since he picked up the Marsalis band for Blue Turtles. Though I found most of 'Ten Summoners Tales' pretty average, one number... "Stronger than Justice (The Munificent Seven)" jumped out. Repeated listening confirm its hypnotic effect was due to 9/8 time.
I'd love to see PET scans of these limb independent polyrhythms... gotta have more than usual activity.
as an aside, Physicist Richard Feynman was apparently renowned in Brazil as a Conga drummer
James Gleick's excellent biography "Genius" details his history of polyrhythmic tapping
Ludwig, I'm trying to understand what you are saying here, but I'm being a bit daft. Are the different temperaments your talking about different scales (different combinations of whole and half steps) or where they dividing an octave up in differnt ways other than the current 12 divisions? If the former, then I don't see how a different key has a fundamentally different feel to it.
Trying to understand...Thanks
Basically, it's the latter. As far as I know, all (western) temperaments had 12 divisions/octave, but they were slightly different from what we use today. I think it may have been the case that they divided the octave into 12 exactly even divisions, which, as it turns out, can be rather displeasing to the ear. (Might have something to do with the summation of signals with commensurable periods resulting in a purely periodic signal, and therefore having a less complex harmonic structure, but yeah....) At some point they figured out how to "detune" the notes just right so that every key was just as in tune as every other key, hence the Well-Tempered Clavier.
Now, there are people who will claim each of our modern 12 keys has a different character to it, but I have yet to hear it (not that I've listened all that hard for it).
Basically, it's the latter. As far as I know, all (western) temperaments had 12 divisions/octave, but they were slightly different from what we use today. I think it may have been the case that they divided the octave into 12 exactly even divisions, which, as it turns out, can be rather displeasing to the ear. (Might have something to do with the summation of signals with commensurable periods resulting in a purely periodic signal, and therefore having a less complex harmonic structure, but yeah....) At some point they figured out how to "detune" the notes just right so that every key was just as in tune as every other key, hence the Well-Tempered Clavier.
Now, there are people who will claim each of our modern 12 keys has a different character to it, but I have yet to hear it (not that I've listened all that hard for it).
The series "Howard Goodall's Big Bangs" is well worth a watch if you can get a hold of it. (The Big Bangs refer to what Howard sees as the 5 defining moments in the history of Western music. But Howard is highly entertaining in his own right, of course.)
You might be thinking of Blue Rondo a la Turk as that 10/8 tune. Great tune. As for Take 5 feeling like a waltz, maybe it just a "raggy" waltz.
Hi Noleli2 and everyone else.
I don't want to bog this thread down being pedantic (as it is good to see all this music theory being discussed) - but "Blue Rondo a la Turk" is actually in 9/8 - not 10/8.
For anybody interested: the fascinating aspect of this rhythm is the way Brubeck chose to subdivide the bar.
Normally, 9/8 is made up of three compound beats: 123 - 456 - 789
For Blue Rondo - he subdivided the pattern this way: 12 - 34 - 56 - 789. Three crotchets and then a dotted crotchet. (later on I think it breaks down into a straight blues vamp for the solos)
I hope those of you that understand what I wrote can appreciate Brubeck's ingenuity! Time Out is a great release - by all means, check it out!
The series "Howard Goodall's Big Bangs" is well worth a watch if you can get a hold of it. (The Big Bangs refer to what Howard sees as the 5 defining moments in the history of Western music. But Howard is highly entertaining in his own right, of course.)
crazychester - Great call! That series was fantastic! Do you know whether it is possible to purchase it on DVD?
I don't want to bog this thread down being pedantic (as it is good to see all this music theory being discussed) - but "Blue Rondo a la Turk" is actually in 9/8 - not 10/8.
Yeah, I spent quite a bit of time trying to figure that out before posting, and I was going between 12 34 56 789 and 78910. I finally just decided it was in 10, so I appreciate the info.
I just heard about this drummer at berklee, japanese kid, he tested in at all the highest levels, apparently his level of proficiency is such that you can tell him "play 4/4 in your right hand, 9/8 with the kick, 5/4 with the hi hat and 14/8 with your left" and he will.
of course, that's just through the grapevine talk, I haven't met him.
Rather than time signatures, I think they mean the drummer can play simultaneously various note values that don't build from another: for example, triplets with his hi-hat foot; eighth notes with the bass drum; fives with one hand and sevens with the other. Then he/she can throw in sixes, nines, eights, whatever, effortlessly, among the limbs.
Ludwig, I'm trying to understand what you are saying here, but I'm being a bit daft. Are the different temperaments your talking about different scales (different combinations of whole and half steps) or where they dividing an octave up in differnt ways other than the current 12 divisions? If the former, then I don't see how a different key has a fundamentally different feel to it.
Trying to understand...Thanks
I am interested too. I know a little bit about this stuff, how classical temperment was C=256hz and A=432hz. and I know that there was some weird periods when notes would shift around hz. values for whatever reason. But I don't really know that much other than that.
Why we have a 12 tone equal tempered scale has always eluded me, every description I've read has been way over my head
Rather than time signatures, I think they mean the drummer can play simultaneously various note values that don't build from another: for example, triplets with his hi-hat foot; eighth notes with the bass drum; fives with one hand and sevens with the other. Then he/she can throw in sixes, nines, eights, whatever, effortlessly, among the limbs.
Maybe, I never met the kid Either way, he's only like 19, he's got a future ahead of him that's for sure.
Do you know whether it is possible to purchase it on DVD?
I think I saw somewhere that it's available through Channel 4 but the ABC Shop doesn't seem to have it. It was funny in the equal temperament one how he basically concludes "and that's why Chinese music sounds so crap".
Getting back to Take 5, if you (or someone) knows and I'm just guessing here from listening to it, would I be right in thinking that in this case he's subdivided the bar as 123-4-5 (a dotted minim and 2 crotchets if you're calling it 5/4 or a dotted crotchet and 2 quavers for 5/8)?
That would explain the waltzy feel. Especially to a dancer given dancer's counting is a bit more free and easy than muso's counting.
Edit: Because my "8" got mysteriously turned into a sunglasses smilie. Why'd that happen? If it's still the same I'm leaving it as is.
Yeah it's felt as 3/4 + 2/4 = 5/4, but it's a pretty easy leap to make that last set of 2/4 another 3/4, giving it that waltzy feel, split up into two 3/4 bars.
Yeah it's felt as 3/4 + 2/4 = 5/4, but it's a pretty easy leap to make that last set of 2/4 another 3/4, giving it that waltzy feel, split up into two 3/4 bars.
Sorry. Right. Yep. You already pointed that out but I lost the plot there for a minute. Or rather, the penny dropped the way Mac+ explained it even though I see now you're describing the same thing in slightly different ways.
I suspect Amorph's dancer was counting it as one long count followed by two shorter ones. Like "Ooooooone, two, three" if you get what I mean. Dancers not being nearly as concerned as musicians with all that notes have equal value crap.
^ That comment about dancers not being concerned with counting as accurately as musicians may be true - but I'm sort of at a loss to really understand how a dancer - for whom the interpretation of rhythm and melody should be a rudiment of their craft - can mistake TAKE 5 for a waltz.
I mean, c'mon - it's called TAKE 5 not "Waltz for half a bar and then waltz more quickly for the other half of the bar!"
OK, so I've been doing some playing around with the mathematics of music, and have found the following, which I'm sure I could have easily have looked up, but it's more fun to find out for yourself:
The harmonic series is defined as:
1/1, 1/2, 1/3, ..., 1/n
When you use this for pitches, you obtain (I'll use 440Hz here):
Code:
DegreeFreq. (Hz)
Root440*1 = 440
Octave440*(1 + 1/1) = 880
5th440*(1 + 1/2) = 660
4th440*(1 + 1/3) = 586.667
Maj3rd440*(1 + 1/4) = 550
min3rd440*(1 + 1/5) = 528
But that's where it stopped working. The closer intervals did not follow the natural harmonic series. At dinner tonight I was talking to my dad, and he said he remembered vaguely something having to do with the 12-th root of two. So, when I got back, I tried:
Code:
440*2^(n/12)
and sure enough, it worked.
Code:
nDegreeFreq. (Hz)
0Root440
11/2 stp466.16
2whl stp493.88
3min3rd523.25
4maj3rd554.37
54th587.33
6Tritone622.25
75th659.26
8min6th698.46
9maj6th739.99
10flat 7783.99
117th830.61
12Octave880
So, why exactly 12 was chosen, I don't know, but maybe that's enough info to get someone going on figuring it out. I suspect it may be because it brought the natural intervals to within "aural rounding error" of the natural series.
And that is how I spend my Sunday afternoon.
(I wonder how long till this gets sent over to AO.)
Comments
As for music theory, I've always felt myself at a disadvantage because I'm not a keyboard player. Every time I try and figure something out theory-wise, I end up fingering through it in my head on the sax. Everyone tells me (and I believe it) that it's a lot easier to be able to picture things on a keyboard. That's why I'm stuck thinking in numbers, and haven't been too successful in translating those to specific keys. One of my goals for this summer is to gain some keyboard proficiency. Hey, I already know QWERTY and Dvorak, how hard could piano be.
Originally posted by Bowlingi5
You might be thinking of Blue Rondo a la Turk as that 10/8 tune. Great tune. As for Take 5 feeling like a waltz, maybe it just a "raggy" waltz.
As for music theory, I've always felt myself at a disadvantage because I'm not a keyboard player. Every time I try and figure something out theory-wise, I end up fingering through it in my head on the sax. Everyone tells me (and I believe it) that it's a lot easier to be able to picture things on a keyboard. That's why I'm stuck thinking in numbers, and haven't been too successful in translating those to specific keys. One of my goals for this summer is to gain some keyboard proficiency. Hey, I already know QWERTY and Dvorak, how hard could piano be.
indeed, Piano is very important, well, proficiency with any chordal instrument gives you an edge I think. As a Bass player, I have a foot in chords, but only having 4 strings, The voicings I can use are limited.
You could master your arpeggios, that'd help a lot.
Originally posted by Noleli2
You might be thinking of Blue Rondo a la Turk as that 10/8 tune. Great tune. As for Take 5 feeling like a waltz, maybe it just a "raggy" waltz.
Oh very droll.
The moral to the story is, if you want a crash course in "Fun with Time Signatures 101" you could do a lot worse than Brubeck.
Originally posted by LudwigVan
Not much these days, but back prior to, say, the late 19th century, pitch (how many Hz is the A above middle C?) nor temperament (the amount of "tonal space" between two adjacent keys on the keyboard and along the octave span) were standardized. Whereas today A = 440Hz and equal temperament rules supreme, the tonal layout of earlier music allowed for different musical colors depending on the key chosen and the temperament (Pythagorean temperament, meantone tuning, Werkmeister III tuning, etc). That is why such composers/theorists as Christian Schubart, a Mozart contemporary, were able to give descriptive names to various keys. Some famous composers did the same: Beethoven once described B minor as a "black key" and implied that D-flat major was somehow majestic or spiritual in a way (witness the slow movement from his last string quartet).
Ludwig, I'm trying to understand what you are saying here, but I'm being a bit daft. Are the different temperaments your talking about different scales (different combinations of whole and half steps) or where they dividing an octave up in differnt ways other than the current 12 divisions? If the former, then I don't see how a different key has a fundamentally different feel to it.
Trying to understand...Thanks
Take Five and Blue Rondo, particularly in their extended versions on "Live in Moscow" are gems.
Sting has had some experiments with tempo since he picked up the Marsalis band for Blue Turtles. Though I found most of 'Ten Summoners Tales' pretty average, one number... "Stronger than Justice (The Munificent Seven)" jumped out. Repeated listening confirm its hypnotic effect was due to 9/8 time.
I'd love to see PET scans of these limb independent polyrhythms... gotta have more than usual activity.
as an aside, Physicist Richard Feynman was apparently renowned in Brazil as a Conga drummer
James Gleick's excellent biography "Genius" details his history of polyrhythmic tapping
Originally posted by Carson O'Genic
Ludwig, I'm trying to understand what you are saying here, but I'm being a bit daft. Are the different temperaments your talking about different scales (different combinations of whole and half steps) or where they dividing an octave up in differnt ways other than the current 12 divisions? If the former, then I don't see how a different key has a fundamentally different feel to it.
Trying to understand...Thanks
Basically, it's the latter. As far as I know, all (western) temperaments had 12 divisions/octave, but they were slightly different from what we use today. I think it may have been the case that they divided the octave into 12 exactly even divisions, which, as it turns out, can be rather displeasing to the ear. (Might have something to do with the summation of signals with commensurable periods resulting in a purely periodic signal, and therefore having a less complex harmonic structure, but yeah....) At some point they figured out how to "detune" the notes just right so that every key was just as in tune as every other key, hence the Well-Tempered Clavier.
Now, there are people who will claim each of our modern 12 keys has a different character to it, but I have yet to hear it (not that I've listened all that hard for it).
Originally posted by Noleli2
Basically, it's the latter. As far as I know, all (western) temperaments had 12 divisions/octave, but they were slightly different from what we use today. I think it may have been the case that they divided the octave into 12 exactly even divisions, which, as it turns out, can be rather displeasing to the ear. (Might have something to do with the summation of signals with commensurable periods resulting in a purely periodic signal, and therefore having a less complex harmonic structure, but yeah....) At some point they figured out how to "detune" the notes just right so that every key was just as in tune as every other key, hence the Well-Tempered Clavier.
Now, there are people who will claim each of our modern 12 keys has a different character to it, but I have yet to hear it (not that I've listened all that hard for it).
A brief history of equal temperament:
http://www.channel4.com/learning/mai...d100666049.htm
The series "Howard Goodall's Big Bangs" is well worth a watch if you can get a hold of it. (The Big Bangs refer to what Howard sees as the 5 defining moments in the history of Western music. But Howard is highly entertaining in his own right, of course.)
Originally posted by Noleli2
You might be thinking of Blue Rondo a la Turk as that 10/8 tune. Great tune. As for Take 5 feeling like a waltz, maybe it just a "raggy" waltz.
Hi Noleli2 and everyone else.
I don't want to bog this thread down being pedantic (as it is good to see all this music theory being discussed) - but "Blue Rondo a la Turk" is actually in 9/8 - not 10/8.
For anybody interested: the fascinating aspect of this rhythm is the way Brubeck chose to subdivide the bar.
Normally, 9/8 is made up of three compound beats: 123 - 456 - 789
For Blue Rondo - he subdivided the pattern this way: 12 - 34 - 56 - 789. Three crotchets and then a dotted crotchet. (later on I think it breaks down into a straight blues vamp for the solos)
I hope those of you that understand what I wrote can appreciate Brubeck's ingenuity! Time Out is a great release - by all means, check it out!
Originally posted by crazychester
A brief history of equal temperament:
http://www.channel4.com/learning/mai...d100666049.htm
The series "Howard Goodall's Big Bangs" is well worth a watch if you can get a hold of it. (The Big Bangs refer to what Howard sees as the 5 defining moments in the history of Western music. But Howard is highly entertaining in his own right, of course.)
crazychester - Great call! That series was fantastic! Do you know whether it is possible to purchase it on DVD?
Originally posted by Mac+
I don't want to bog this thread down being pedantic (as it is good to see all this music theory being discussed) - but "Blue Rondo a la Turk" is actually in 9/8 - not 10/8.
Yeah, I spent quite a bit of time trying to figure that out before posting, and I was going between 12 34 56 789 and 78910. I finally just decided it was in 10, so I appreciate the info.
Originally posted by Amorph
According to the liner notes, it's in 5/8.
Not that it makes all that much difference in practice, if you're talking about the time signature for an entire song...
I agree, it's more of a tomayto/tomahto interpretation.
Originally posted by Wrong Robot
I just heard about this drummer at berklee, japanese kid, he tested in at all the highest levels, apparently his level of proficiency is such that you can tell him "play 4/4 in your right hand, 9/8 with the kick, 5/4 with the hi hat and 14/8 with your left" and he will.
of course, that's just through the grapevine talk, I haven't met him.
Rather than time signatures, I think they mean the drummer can play simultaneously various note values that don't build from another: for example, triplets with his hi-hat foot; eighth notes with the bass drum; fives with one hand and sevens with the other. Then he/she can throw in sixes, nines, eights, whatever, effortlessly, among the limbs.
Originally posted by Carson O'Genic
Ludwig, I'm trying to understand what you are saying here, but I'm being a bit daft. Are the different temperaments your talking about different scales (different combinations of whole and half steps) or where they dividing an octave up in differnt ways other than the current 12 divisions? If the former, then I don't see how a different key has a fundamentally different feel to it.
Trying to understand...Thanks
I am interested too. I know a little bit about this stuff, how classical temperment was C=256hz and A=432hz. and I know that there was some weird periods when notes would shift around hz. values for whatever reason. But I don't really know that much other than that.
Why we have a 12 tone equal tempered scale has always eluded me, every description I've read has been way over my head
Originally posted by scottiB
Rather than time signatures, I think they mean the drummer can play simultaneously various note values that don't build from another: for example, triplets with his hi-hat foot; eighth notes with the bass drum; fives with one hand and sevens with the other. Then he/she can throw in sixes, nines, eights, whatever, effortlessly, among the limbs.
Maybe, I never met the kid
Originally posted by Mac+
Do you know whether it is possible to purchase it on DVD?
I think I saw somewhere that it's available through Channel 4 but the ABC Shop doesn't seem to have it.
Getting back to Take 5, if you (or someone) knows and I'm just guessing here from listening to it, would I be right in thinking that in this case he's subdivided the bar as 123-4-5 (a dotted minim and 2 crotchets if you're calling it 5/4 or a dotted crotchet and 2 quavers for 5/8)?
That would explain the waltzy feel. Especially to a dancer given dancer's counting is a bit more free and easy than muso's counting.
Edit: Because my "8" got mysteriously turned into a sunglasses smilie. Why'd that happen? If it's still the same I'm leaving it as is.
since you ended your parenthesis with 5/8) it became a sunglass dude
Originally posted by Noleli2
Yeah it's felt as 3/4 + 2/4 = 5/4, but it's a pretty easy leap to make that last set of 2/4 another 3/4, giving it that waltzy feel, split up into two 3/4 bars.
Sorry. Right. Yep. You already pointed that out but I lost the plot there for a minute. Or rather, the penny dropped the way Mac+ explained it even though I see now you're describing the same thing in slightly different ways.
I suspect Amorph's dancer was counting it as one long count followed by two shorter ones. Like "Ooooooone, two, three" if you get what I mean. Dancers not being nearly as concerned as musicians with all that notes have equal value crap.
I mean, c'mon - it's called TAKE 5 not "Waltz for half a bar and then waltz more quickly for the other half of the bar!"
[EDIT: typos - hate 'em]
The harmonic series is defined as:
1/1, 1/2, 1/3, ..., 1/n
When you use this for pitches, you obtain (I'll use 440Hz here):
DegreeFreq. (Hz)
Root440*1 = 440
Octave440*(1 + 1/1) = 880
5th440*(1 + 1/2) = 660
4th440*(1 + 1/3) = 586.667
Maj3rd440*(1 + 1/4) = 550
min3rd440*(1 + 1/5) = 528
But that's where it stopped working. The closer intervals did not follow the natural harmonic series. At dinner tonight I was talking to my dad, and he said he remembered vaguely something having to do with the 12-th root of two. So, when I got back, I tried:
440*2^(n/12)
and sure enough, it worked.
nDegreeFreq. (Hz)
0Root440
11/2 stp466.16
2whl stp493.88
3min3rd523.25
4maj3rd554.37
54th587.33
6Tritone622.25
75th659.26
8min6th698.46
9maj6th739.99
10flat 7783.99
117th830.61
12Octave880
So, why exactly 12 was chosen, I don't know, but maybe that's enough info to get someone going on figuring it out. I suspect it may be because it brought the natural intervals to within "aural rounding error" of the natural series.
And that is how I spend my Sunday afternoon.
(I wonder how long till this gets sent over to AO.)