Music Theory Question

2

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 56
    noleli2noleli2 Posts: 129member
    You might be thinking of Blue Rondo a la Turk as that 10/8 tune. Great tune. As for Take 5 feeling like a waltz, maybe it just a "raggy" waltz.



    As for music theory, I've always felt myself at a disadvantage because I'm not a keyboard player. Every time I try and figure something out theory-wise, I end up fingering through it in my head on the sax. Everyone tells me (and I believe it) that it's a lot easier to be able to picture things on a keyboard. That's why I'm stuck thinking in numbers, and haven't been too successful in translating those to specific keys. One of my goals for this summer is to gain some keyboard proficiency. Hey, I already know QWERTY and Dvorak, how hard could piano be.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 22 of 56
    wrong robotwrong robot Posts: 3,907member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Bowlingi5

    You might be thinking of Blue Rondo a la Turk as that 10/8 tune. Great tune. As for Take 5 feeling like a waltz, maybe it just a "raggy" waltz.



    As for music theory, I've always felt myself at a disadvantage because I'm not a keyboard player. Every time I try and figure something out theory-wise, I end up fingering through it in my head on the sax. Everyone tells me (and I believe it) that it's a lot easier to be able to picture things on a keyboard. That's why I'm stuck thinking in numbers, and haven't been too successful in translating those to specific keys. One of my goals for this summer is to gain some keyboard proficiency. Hey, I already know QWERTY and Dvorak, how hard could piano be.




    indeed, Piano is very important, well, proficiency with any chordal instrument gives you an edge I think. As a Bass player, I have a foot in chords, but only having 4 strings, The voicings I can use are limited.



    You could master your arpeggios, that'd help a lot.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 23 of 56
    crazychestercrazychester Posts: 1,339member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Noleli2

    You might be thinking of Blue Rondo a la Turk as that 10/8 tune. Great tune. As for Take 5 feeling like a waltz, maybe it just a "raggy" waltz.





    Oh very droll.



    The moral to the story is, if you want a crash course in "Fun with Time Signatures 101" you could do a lot worse than Brubeck.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 24 of 56
    carson o'geniccarson o'genic Posts: 1,279member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by LudwigVan

    Not much these days, but back prior to, say, the late 19th century, pitch (how many Hz is the A above middle C?) nor temperament (the amount of "tonal space" between two adjacent keys on the keyboard and along the octave span) were standardized. Whereas today A = 440Hz and equal temperament rules supreme, the tonal layout of earlier music allowed for different musical colors depending on the key chosen and the temperament (Pythagorean temperament, meantone tuning, Werkmeister III tuning, etc). That is why such composers/theorists as Christian Schubart, a Mozart contemporary, were able to give descriptive names to various keys. Some famous composers did the same: Beethoven once described B minor as a "black key" and implied that D-flat major was somehow majestic or spiritual in a way (witness the slow movement from his last string quartet).





    Ludwig, I'm trying to understand what you are saying here, but I'm being a bit daft. Are the different temperaments your talking about different scales (different combinations of whole and half steps) or where they dividing an octave up in differnt ways other than the current 12 divisions? If the former, then I don't see how a different key has a fundamentally different feel to it.



    Trying to understand...Thanks
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 25 of 56
    curiousuburbcuriousuburb Posts: 3,325member
    Brubeck has always been one of my favourites, in part due to rhythmic complexity.

    Take Five and Blue Rondo, particularly in their extended versions on "Live in Moscow" are gems.



    Sting has had some experiments with tempo since he picked up the Marsalis band for Blue Turtles. Though I found most of 'Ten Summoners Tales' pretty average, one number... "Stronger than Justice (The Munificent Seven)" jumped out. Repeated listening confirm its hypnotic effect was due to 9/8 time.



    I'd love to see PET scans of these limb independent polyrhythms... gotta have more than usual activity.



    as an aside, Physicist Richard Feynman was apparently renowned in Brazil as a Conga drummer

    James Gleick's excellent biography "Genius" details his history of polyrhythmic tapping
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 26 of 56
    noleli2noleli2 Posts: 129member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Carson O'Genic

    Ludwig, I'm trying to understand what you are saying here, but I'm being a bit daft. Are the different temperaments your talking about different scales (different combinations of whole and half steps) or where they dividing an octave up in differnt ways other than the current 12 divisions? If the former, then I don't see how a different key has a fundamentally different feel to it.



    Trying to understand...Thanks




    Basically, it's the latter. As far as I know, all (western) temperaments had 12 divisions/octave, but they were slightly different from what we use today. I think it may have been the case that they divided the octave into 12 exactly even divisions, which, as it turns out, can be rather displeasing to the ear. (Might have something to do with the summation of signals with commensurable periods resulting in a purely periodic signal, and therefore having a less complex harmonic structure, but yeah....) At some point they figured out how to "detune" the notes just right so that every key was just as in tune as every other key, hence the Well-Tempered Clavier.



    Now, there are people who will claim each of our modern 12 keys has a different character to it, but I have yet to hear it (not that I've listened all that hard for it).
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 27 of 56
    crazychestercrazychester Posts: 1,339member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Noleli2

    Basically, it's the latter. As far as I know, all (western) temperaments had 12 divisions/octave, but they were slightly different from what we use today. I think it may have been the case that they divided the octave into 12 exactly even divisions, which, as it turns out, can be rather displeasing to the ear. (Might have something to do with the summation of signals with commensurable periods resulting in a purely periodic signal, and therefore having a less complex harmonic structure, but yeah....) At some point they figured out how to "detune" the notes just right so that every key was just as in tune as every other key, hence the Well-Tempered Clavier.



    Now, there are people who will claim each of our modern 12 keys has a different character to it, but I have yet to hear it (not that I've listened all that hard for it).




    A brief history of equal temperament:



    http://www.channel4.com/learning/mai...d100666049.htm



    The series "Howard Goodall's Big Bangs" is well worth a watch if you can get a hold of it. (The Big Bangs refer to what Howard sees as the 5 defining moments in the history of Western music. But Howard is highly entertaining in his own right, of course.)
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 28 of 56
    mac+mac+ Posts: 580member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Noleli2

    You might be thinking of Blue Rondo a la Turk as that 10/8 tune. Great tune. As for Take 5 feeling like a waltz, maybe it just a "raggy" waltz.





    Hi Noleli2 and everyone else.



    I don't want to bog this thread down being pedantic (as it is good to see all this music theory being discussed) - but "Blue Rondo a la Turk" is actually in 9/8 - not 10/8.



    For anybody interested: the fascinating aspect of this rhythm is the way Brubeck chose to subdivide the bar.



    Normally, 9/8 is made up of three compound beats: 123 - 456 - 789



    For Blue Rondo - he subdivided the pattern this way: 12 - 34 - 56 - 789. Three crotchets and then a dotted crotchet. (later on I think it breaks down into a straight blues vamp for the solos)



    I hope those of you that understand what I wrote can appreciate Brubeck's ingenuity! Time Out is a great release - by all means, check it out!
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 29 of 56
    mac+mac+ Posts: 580member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by crazychester

    A brief history of equal temperament:



    http://www.channel4.com/learning/mai...d100666049.htm



    The series "Howard Goodall's Big Bangs" is well worth a watch if you can get a hold of it. (The Big Bangs refer to what Howard sees as the 5 defining moments in the history of Western music. But Howard is highly entertaining in his own right, of course.)




    crazychester - Great call! That series was fantastic! Do you know whether it is possible to purchase it on DVD?
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 30 of 56
    noleli2noleli2 Posts: 129member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Mac+

    I don't want to bog this thread down being pedantic (as it is good to see all this music theory being discussed) - but "Blue Rondo a la Turk" is actually in 9/8 - not 10/8.



    Yeah, I spent quite a bit of time trying to figure that out before posting, and I was going between 12 34 56 789 and 78910. I finally just decided it was in 10, so I appreciate the info.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 31 of 56
    scottibscottib Posts: 381member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Amorph

    According to the liner notes, it's in 5/8.



    Not that it makes all that much difference in practice, if you're talking about the time signature for an entire song...




    I agree, it's more of a tomayto/tomahto interpretation.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 32 of 56
    scottibscottib Posts: 381member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Wrong Robot

    I just heard about this drummer at berklee, japanese kid, he tested in at all the highest levels, apparently his level of proficiency is such that you can tell him "play 4/4 in your right hand, 9/8 with the kick, 5/4 with the hi hat and 14/8 with your left" and he will.



    of course, that's just through the grapevine talk, I haven't met him.




    Rather than time signatures, I think they mean the drummer can play simultaneously various note values that don't build from another: for example, triplets with his hi-hat foot; eighth notes with the bass drum; fives with one hand and sevens with the other. Then he/she can throw in sixes, nines, eights, whatever, effortlessly, among the limbs.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 33 of 56
    wrong robotwrong robot Posts: 3,907member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Carson O'Genic

    Ludwig, I'm trying to understand what you are saying here, but I'm being a bit daft. Are the different temperaments your talking about different scales (different combinations of whole and half steps) or where they dividing an octave up in differnt ways other than the current 12 divisions? If the former, then I don't see how a different key has a fundamentally different feel to it.



    Trying to understand...Thanks




    I am interested too. I know a little bit about this stuff, how classical temperment was C=256hz and A=432hz. and I know that there was some weird periods when notes would shift around hz. values for whatever reason. But I don't really know that much other than that.



    Why we have a 12 tone equal tempered scale has always eluded me, every description I've read has been way over my head
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 34 of 56
    wrong robotwrong robot Posts: 3,907member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by scottiB

    Rather than time signatures, I think they mean the drummer can play simultaneously various note values that don't build from another: for example, triplets with his hi-hat foot; eighth notes with the bass drum; fives with one hand and sevens with the other. Then he/she can throw in sixes, nines, eights, whatever, effortlessly, among the limbs.



    Maybe, I never met the kid Either way, he's only like 19, he's got a future ahead of him that's for sure.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 35 of 56
    crazychestercrazychester Posts: 1,339member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Mac+

    Do you know whether it is possible to purchase it on DVD?



    I think I saw somewhere that it's available through Channel 4 but the ABC Shop doesn't seem to have it. It was funny in the equal temperament one how he basically concludes "and that's why Chinese music sounds so crap".



    Getting back to Take 5, if you (or someone) knows and I'm just guessing here from listening to it, would I be right in thinking that in this case he's subdivided the bar as 123-4-5 (a dotted minim and 2 crotchets if you're calling it 5/4 or a dotted crotchet and 2 quavers for 5/8)?



    That would explain the waltzy feel. Especially to a dancer given dancer's counting is a bit more free and easy than muso's counting.



    Edit: Because my "8" got mysteriously turned into a sunglasses smilie. Why'd that happen? If it's still the same I'm leaving it as is.

     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 36 of 56
    wrong robotwrong robot Posts: 3,907member
    8 ) is the code for this guy 8)



    since you ended your parenthesis with 5/8) it became a sunglass dude
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 37 of 56
    noleli2noleli2 Posts: 129member
    Yeah it's felt as 3/4 + 2/4 = 5/4, but it's a pretty easy leap to make that last set of 2/4 another 3/4, giving it that waltzy feel, split up into two 3/4 bars.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 38 of 56
    crazychestercrazychester Posts: 1,339member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Noleli2

    Yeah it's felt as 3/4 + 2/4 = 5/4, but it's a pretty easy leap to make that last set of 2/4 another 3/4, giving it that waltzy feel, split up into two 3/4 bars.



    Sorry. Right. Yep. You already pointed that out but I lost the plot there for a minute. Or rather, the penny dropped the way Mac+ explained it even though I see now you're describing the same thing in slightly different ways.



    I suspect Amorph's dancer was counting it as one long count followed by two shorter ones. Like "Ooooooone, two, three" if you get what I mean. Dancers not being nearly as concerned as musicians with all that notes have equal value crap.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 39 of 56
    mac+mac+ Posts: 580member
    ^ That comment about dancers not being concerned with counting as accurately as musicians may be true - but I'm sort of at a loss to really understand how a dancer - for whom the interpretation of rhythm and melody should be a rudiment of their craft - can mistake TAKE 5 for a waltz.



    I mean, c'mon - it's called TAKE 5 not "Waltz for half a bar and then waltz more quickly for the other half of the bar!"



    [EDIT: typos - hate 'em]
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 40 of 56
    noleli2noleli2 Posts: 129member
    OK, so I've been doing some playing around with the mathematics of music, and have found the following, which I'm sure I could have easily have looked up, but it's more fun to find out for yourself:



    The harmonic series is defined as:

    1/1, 1/2, 1/3, ..., 1/n



    When you use this for pitches, you obtain (I'll use 440Hz here):

    Code:


    DegreeFreq. (Hz)

    Root440*1 = 440

    Octave440*(1 + 1/1) = 880

    5th440*(1 + 1/2) = 660

    4th440*(1 + 1/3) = 586.667

    Maj3rd440*(1 + 1/4) = 550

    min3rd440*(1 + 1/5) = 528







    But that's where it stopped working. The closer intervals did not follow the natural harmonic series. At dinner tonight I was talking to my dad, and he said he remembered vaguely something having to do with the 12-th root of two. So, when I got back, I tried:

    Code:


    440*2^(n/12)





    and sure enough, it worked.



    Code:


    nDegreeFreq. (Hz)

    0Root440

    11/2 stp466.16

    2whl stp493.88

    3min3rd523.25

    4maj3rd554.37

    54th587.33

    6Tritone622.25

    75th659.26

    8min6th698.46

    9maj6th739.99

    10flat 7783.99

    117th830.61

    12Octave880







    So, why exactly 12 was chosen, I don't know, but maybe that's enough info to get someone going on figuring it out. I suspect it may be because it brought the natural intervals to within "aural rounding error" of the natural series.



    And that is how I spend my Sunday afternoon.



    (I wonder how long till this gets sent over to AO.)
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
Sign In or Register to comment.