I personally wait to see all of the facts before jumping to conclusions.
Good. Maybe you should start digging into the immense mountain of info on the subject to catch up.
Quote:
But once again I highly doubt they were sanctioned by the Military.
We are talking about a handful of people acting outside of common decency.
Well, golly. I thought you were going to wait to see the facts before jumping to conclusions. See what happens when you don't? You end up making ridiculous statements.
I have avoided this thread because I thought most people would concur that these inhuman acts tarnish not only those responsible but the US military and by default the United States itself. A handful of individuals who represent this nation (and they are told that they do) who commit such crimes are in the unique position to tarnish the reputation of the individuals tortured and the US. These acts, while perhaps the acts of individuals, cannot be tossed aside as simply acts of a few bad apples because of the position these individuals hold in representing the us...
Punishment should be equal to the crime. Since when does torture equate to death?
Institutionalized and systematic violence and torture of political prisoners who are protected by the Geneva Conventions. Do you condemn or condone acts such as this that I have described? And if you condemn them, how would capital punishment not fit this crime that I (and the media) have described?
And no, I'm not forgetting innocent until proven guilty. Obviously I expect those charged to be found guilty before any punishment could be addressed. I'm discussing the penalty for a crime, only applicable once someone is found guilty in a court of law. Any reasonable and rational person should be able to tell that's what's being discussed.
Good. Maybe you should start digging into the immense mountain of info on the subject to catch up.
Well, golly. I thought you were going to wait to see the facts before jumping to conclusions. See what happens when you don't? You end up making ridiculous statements.
Once again, "innocent till proven guilty" is an assumption that we are bound to make:
"The principle that there is a presumption of innocence in favor of the accused is the undoubted law, axiomatic and elementary, and its enforcement lies at the foundation of the administration of our criminal law."
By those definitions, those acts could be defined as torture, maybe. But once again I highly doubt they were sanctioned by the Military.
We are talking about a handful of people acting outside of common decency.
As reports, evidence, statements, and other relevant facts (along with, apparently, many more photos and even videos) are coming out, it doesn't look like you can call these isolated incidents.
Quote:
The torture and sadism at the Abu Ghraib prison were spawned at another Iraqi jail called Camp Bucca.
And it may have been allowed to flourish by inept officers and inadvertently encouraged by a policy that urged the prison guards to perform jobs they weren't trained to do.
Some of the U.S. soldiers who were photographed sexually humiliating prisoners at deposed dictator Saddam Hussein's most notorious prison were also at Camp Bucca last year, when the facility was rocked by allegations that detainees were beaten.
But instead of throwing the book at the four soldiers caught abusing Iraqi detainees, the military gave them the boot with less-than-honorable discharges, according to a scathing report into the shocking sadism prepared by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba.
Their commanding officer, Lt. Col. Jerry Phillabaum, was transferred to Abu Ghraib, where the actions of soldiers supposedly under his command have shamed the nation and outraged the Arab world.
"The information in the Taguba report links the atrocities at Abu Ghraib to Camp Bucca," Sen. Hillary Clinton (D-N.Y.) said at a Senate hearing Friday into the explosive abuse charges. "In fact, some of the same people, some of the same command, some of the same MPs [military police] were involved apparently.
Gen. Janis Karpinski, who as head of the 800th Military Police Brigade - based in Uniondale, L.I. - oversaw all the U.S. detention facilities in Iraq and supervised Phillabaum, told Army investigators their failure to properly punish the soldiers at Camp Bucca led to the outrages at Abu Ghraib.
"The decisions were made to give the guilty people at Bucca plea bargains," Karpinski said in the report. "So, the system communicated to the soldiers, 'The worst that's gonna happen is you're gonna go home.'"
Karpinski, who is back home in Hilton Head, S.C., could be stripped of her command because of the abuses that happened on her watch. Her lawyer, Neil Puckett, said "the abuses at Abu Ghraib are related to what happened at Camp Bucca."
"Some of the MPs who were up at Camp Bucca were indeed transferred to Abu Ghraib," Puckett said. "I believe there were relationships between the folks charged now and folks who were separated from the military back then. I wonder if there is a more widespread problem."
Phillabaum, commander of the 320th Military Police Battalion, based in Ashley, Pa., faces official reprimands for what Taguba called his "extremely ineffective" leadership.
Troops told Taguba that they rarely saw Phillabaum or Karpinski.
Phillabaum did not return calls to his Lansdale, Pa., home.
Other top commanders in the unit also received scathing assessments by Taguba, with two majors called "essentially dysfunctional" and another top officer "unwilling to accept responsibility."
In addition, the military police were told to "'set the conditions' for MI [military intelligence] interrogations," the report said.
Taguba said the tactic that "military police actively set the favorable conditions for subsequent interviews runs counter to the smooth operation of a detention facility."
I have avoided this thread because I thought most people would concur that these inhuman acts tarnish not only those responsible but the US military and by default the United States itself. A handful of individuals who represent this nation (and they are told that they do) who commit such crimes are in the unique position to tarnish the reputation of the individuals tortured and the US. These acts, while perhaps the acts of individuals, cannot be tossed aside as simply acts of a few bad apples because of the position these individuals hold in representing the us...
Well then, if we are to go along with that, we must all be guilty by association, because of US citizenship.
Institutionalized and systematic violence and torture of political prisoners who are protected by the Geneva Conventions. Do you condemn or condone acts such as this that I have described? And if you condemn them, how would capital punishment not fit this crime that I (and the media) have described?
And no, I'm not forgetting innocent until proven guilty. Obviously I expect those charged to be found guilty before any punishment could be addressed. I'm discussing the penalty for a crime, only applicable once someone is found guilty in a court of law. Any reasonable and rational person should be able to tell that's what's being discussed.
If this was a court of law, you would be shot down smartly for lack of evidence for your accusations.
Well then, if we are to go along with that, we must all be guilty by association, because of US citizenship.
Extremely tortured logic.
I'm not sure I get your point.
Police officers in uniform are held to a higher standard than ordinary citizens. They can be fired for whistling at a cute girl. Does that make us all guilty of sexual harassment?
People in uniform are held (or should be held) to a higher standard when they are in uniform. It's that simple. Continuing to deny that this paints the US occupation in a less than favorable light is absurd.
Police officers in uniform are held to a higher standard than ordinary citizens. They can be fired for whistling at a cute girl. Does that make us all guilty of sexual harassment?
People in uniform are held (or should be held) to a higher standard when they are in uniform. It's that simple. Continuing to deny that this paints the US occupation in a less than favorable light is absurd.
Being held to a higher standard is one thing. What we are talking about here is another.
A policeman does not get the death penalty for beating someone in an interrogation, he gets fired, fined and/or jailed. By such he is held to a given standard.
Those responsible will be dealt with in a similar way, and will be ousted from the Military, thus being held to that higher standard you mention.
I am not sure where the death penalty fits in here, unless a lot of factors apply.
Also, I never said that this is not a black eye to the effort, at any point.
You are also forgetting the whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing that we here pride ourselves in.
That "innocent until proven guilty thing" that doesn't apply to Arabs in Cuba, Afghanistan and Iraq, you mean? That "innocent until proven guilty thing" that wasn't enough to prevent this man from being beaten to death by American soldiers in American custody?
That's exactly the point. American values aren't supposed to apply to Americans alone.
Because someone thought it would be damaging to the US, its administration and the war on terror if reports of war crimes by US soldiers were known to the public. Obviously the same person felt the reputation of the country carried more weight than the suffering of Iraqis under american hand.
To be completely fair, things like this happen anywhere. There is always a tendency to cover up uncomfortable truths. And this is why an independent press and investigative journalism are so important parts of democratic countries.
Quote:
What would have happened if it had not leaked and the pictures not come out ? Would we even know of these abuses ?
It would have been declassified some decades into the future. More interesting: would anyone have cared if only reports and no photos would have leaked?
We are talking about a handful of people acting outside of common decency.
I've come to the conclusion that you are a Bush doctrine supporter tooth and nail. No matter what the situation, you will defend this corrupt administration. You refuse to dig into situations to find facts.
This situation was not isolated. If it were isolated it would be localized to a handfull of guards at a single prison but that simple was not the case. This involves multiple incidents at multiple facilities involving prisions run by both British and US troops. The military leadership have had knowledge of these pictures and acts in one form or another since mid January yet nothing was done until 60 minutes broke the story. Point of fact is there was a concerted effort to keep these acts from the public eye in an effert to maintain support for this conflict.
Quote:
SMITH:_Sir, we knew that there were photos on June 14th because that's how the investigation started -- I mean January 14th._When the soldier...
If you read the entire transcript (or watch the proceedings) you'll see that CBS was contacted about this story and asked not to air it. This was a cover up of a systematic problem, not an isolated incident.
Jesus Damn man, Bush didn't even find out about these photos until he saw them on TV!!! This was a coverup of a systematic problem.
Well then, if we are to go along with that, we must all be guilty by association, because of US citizenship.
Extremely tortured logic.
You are stalling and dodging simple questions. Again:
Quote:
Do you condemn or condone acts such as this that I have described? And if you condemn them, how would capital punishment not fit this crime that I (and the media) have described?
If you don't feel fit to answer those questions, please state so instead of trying to sidetrack the thread. Thanks.
If this was a court of law, you would be shot down smartly for lack of evidence for your accusations.
Institutional?
Systematic?
"ICRC spokesman Roland Huguenin-Benjamin said the treatment of Iraqi prisoners "is not acceptable, and we are very worried that this might have been done in the full knowledge of the people in charge, and eventually condoned."
"This has to be investigated and responsibility has to be taken," he added."
Comments
Originally posted by bunge
Institutionalized violence of this fashion is a far greater crime than murder even if we only killed a few Iraqis in the process of torturing them.
Once again you are assuming a lot.
I would be careful.
Originally posted by NaplesX
You are also assuming that higher up encouraged these things specifically.
Only in the way that he assumes the Empire State Bldg is in NY and that cats are furry things with claws.
Originally posted by NaplesX
This was not necessarily torture.
Check out how nice I am.
Torture as defined by the dictionary, UN and US Code.
Originally posted by giant
Check out how nice I am.
Torture as defined by the dictionary, UN and US Code.
By those definitions, those acts could be defined as torture, maybe. But once again I highly doubt they were sanctioned by the Military.
We are talking about a handful of people acting outside of common decency.
Once again, I personally wait to see all of the facts before jumping to conclusions.
Originally posted by NaplesX
I personally wait to see all of the facts before jumping to conclusions.
Good. Maybe you should start digging into the immense mountain of info on the subject to catch up.
But once again I highly doubt they were sanctioned by the Military.
We are talking about a handful of people acting outside of common decency.
Well, golly. I thought you were going to wait to see the facts before jumping to conclusions. See what happens when you don't? You end up making ridiculous statements.
I have avoided this thread because I thought most people would concur that these inhuman acts tarnish not only those responsible but the US military and by default the United States itself. A handful of individuals who represent this nation (and they are told that they do) who commit such crimes are in the unique position to tarnish the reputation of the individuals tortured and the US. These acts, while perhaps the acts of individuals, cannot be tossed aside as simply acts of a few bad apples because of the position these individuals hold in representing the us...
Originally posted by NaplesX
Punishment should be equal to the crime. Since when does torture equate to death?
Institutionalized and systematic violence and torture of political prisoners who are protected by the Geneva Conventions. Do you condemn or condone acts such as this that I have described? And if you condemn them, how would capital punishment not fit this crime that I (and the media) have described?
And no, I'm not forgetting innocent until proven guilty. Obviously I expect those charged to be found guilty before any punishment could be addressed. I'm discussing the penalty for a crime, only applicable once someone is found guilty in a court of law. Any reasonable and rational person should be able to tell that's what's being discussed.
Originally posted by giant
Good. Maybe you should start digging into the immense mountain of info on the subject to catch up.
Well, golly. I thought you were going to wait to see the facts before jumping to conclusions. See what happens when you don't? You end up making ridiculous statements.
Once again, "innocent till proven guilty" is an assumption that we are bound to make:
"The principle that there is a presumption of innocence in favor of the accused is the undoubted law, axiomatic and elementary, and its enforcement lies at the foundation of the administration of our criminal law."
Coffin v.l United States, (1895)
Originally posted by NaplesX
By those definitions, those acts could be defined as torture, maybe. But once again I highly doubt they were sanctioned by the Military.
We are talking about a handful of people acting outside of common decency.
As reports, evidence, statements, and other relevant facts (along with, apparently, many more photos and even videos) are coming out, it doesn't look like you can call these isolated incidents.
The torture and sadism at the Abu Ghraib prison were spawned at another Iraqi jail called Camp Bucca.
And it may have been allowed to flourish by inept officers and inadvertently encouraged by a policy that urged the prison guards to perform jobs they weren't trained to do.
Some of the U.S. soldiers who were photographed sexually humiliating prisoners at deposed dictator Saddam Hussein's most notorious prison were also at Camp Bucca last year, when the facility was rocked by allegations that detainees were beaten.
But instead of throwing the book at the four soldiers caught abusing Iraqi detainees, the military gave them the boot with less-than-honorable discharges, according to a scathing report into the shocking sadism prepared by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba.
Their commanding officer, Lt. Col. Jerry Phillabaum, was transferred to Abu Ghraib, where the actions of soldiers supposedly under his command have shamed the nation and outraged the Arab world.
"The information in the Taguba report links the atrocities at Abu Ghraib to Camp Bucca," Sen. Hillary Clinton (D-N.Y.) said at a Senate hearing Friday into the explosive abuse charges. "In fact, some of the same people, some of the same command, some of the same MPs [military police] were involved apparently.
Gen. Janis Karpinski, who as head of the 800th Military Police Brigade - based in Uniondale, L.I. - oversaw all the U.S. detention facilities in Iraq and supervised Phillabaum, told Army investigators their failure to properly punish the soldiers at Camp Bucca led to the outrages at Abu Ghraib.
"The decisions were made to give the guilty people at Bucca plea bargains," Karpinski said in the report. "So, the system communicated to the soldiers, 'The worst that's gonna happen is you're gonna go home.'"
Karpinski, who is back home in Hilton Head, S.C., could be stripped of her command because of the abuses that happened on her watch. Her lawyer, Neil Puckett, said "the abuses at Abu Ghraib are related to what happened at Camp Bucca."
"Some of the MPs who were up at Camp Bucca were indeed transferred to Abu Ghraib," Puckett said. "I believe there were relationships between the folks charged now and folks who were separated from the military back then. I wonder if there is a more widespread problem."
Phillabaum, commander of the 320th Military Police Battalion, based in Ashley, Pa., faces official reprimands for what Taguba called his "extremely ineffective" leadership.
Troops told Taguba that they rarely saw Phillabaum or Karpinski.
Phillabaum did not return calls to his Lansdale, Pa., home.
Other top commanders in the unit also received scathing assessments by Taguba, with two majors called "essentially dysfunctional" and another top officer "unwilling to accept responsibility."
In addition, the military police were told to "'set the conditions' for MI [military intelligence] interrogations," the report said.
Taguba said the tactic that "military police actively set the favorable conditions for subsequent interviews runs counter to the smooth operation of a detention facility."
LINK
Originally posted by billybobsky
NaplesX,
I have avoided this thread because I thought most people would concur that these inhuman acts tarnish not only those responsible but the US military and by default the United States itself. A handful of individuals who represent this nation (and they are told that they do) who commit such crimes are in the unique position to tarnish the reputation of the individuals tortured and the US. These acts, while perhaps the acts of individuals, cannot be tossed aside as simply acts of a few bad apples because of the position these individuals hold in representing the us...
Well then, if we are to go along with that, we must all be guilty by association, because of US citizenship.
Extremely tortured logic.
Originally posted by bunge
Institutionalized and systematic violence and torture of political prisoners who are protected by the Geneva Conventions. Do you condemn or condone acts such as this that I have described? And if you condemn them, how would capital punishment not fit this crime that I (and the media) have described?
And no, I'm not forgetting innocent until proven guilty. Obviously I expect those charged to be found guilty before any punishment could be addressed. I'm discussing the penalty for a crime, only applicable once someone is found guilty in a court of law. Any reasonable and rational person should be able to tell that's what's being discussed.
If this was a court of law, you would be shot down smartly for lack of evidence for your accusations.
Institutional?
Systematic?
Originally posted by NaplesX
Well then, if we are to go along with that, we must all be guilty by association, because of US citizenship.
Extremely tortured logic.
I'm not sure I get your point.
Police officers in uniform are held to a higher standard than ordinary citizens. They can be fired for whistling at a cute girl. Does that make us all guilty of sexual harassment?
People in uniform are held (or should be held) to a higher standard when they are in uniform. It's that simple. Continuing to deny that this paints the US occupation in a less than favorable light is absurd.
Originally posted by torifile
I'm not sure I get your point.
Police officers in uniform are held to a higher standard than ordinary citizens. They can be fired for whistling at a cute girl. Does that make us all guilty of sexual harassment?
People in uniform are held (or should be held) to a higher standard when they are in uniform. It's that simple. Continuing to deny that this paints the US occupation in a less than favorable light is absurd.
Being held to a higher standard is one thing. What we are talking about here is another.
A policeman does not get the death penalty for beating someone in an interrogation, he gets fired, fined and/or jailed. By such he is held to a given standard.
Those responsible will be dealt with in a similar way, and will be ousted from the Military, thus being held to that higher standard you mention.
I am not sure where the death penalty fits in here, unless a lot of factors apply.
Also, I never said that this is not a black eye to the effort, at any point.
Originally posted by NaplesX
You are also forgetting the whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing that we here pride ourselves in.
That "innocent until proven guilty thing" that doesn't apply to Arabs in Cuba, Afghanistan and Iraq, you mean? That "innocent until proven guilty thing" that wasn't enough to prevent this man
That's exactly the point. American values aren't supposed to apply to Americans alone.
Originally posted by segovius
Why was a report into these abuse classified ?
Because someone thought it would be damaging to the US, its administration and the war on terror if reports of war crimes by US soldiers were known to the public. Obviously the same person felt the reputation of the country carried more weight than the suffering of Iraqis under american hand.
To be completely fair, things like this happen anywhere. There is always a tendency to cover up uncomfortable truths. And this is why an independent press and investigative journalism are so important parts of democratic countries.
What would have happened if it had not leaked and the pictures not come out ? Would we even know of these abuses ?
It would have been declassified some decades into the future. More interesting: would anyone have cared if only reports and no photos would have leaked?
Originally posted by NaplesX
We are talking about a handful of people acting outside of common decency.
I've come to the conclusion that you are a Bush doctrine supporter tooth and nail. No matter what the situation, you will defend this corrupt administration. You refuse to dig into situations to find facts.
This situation was not isolated. If it were isolated it would be localized to a handfull of guards at a single prison but that simple was not the case. This involves multiple incidents at multiple facilities involving prisions run by both British and US troops. The military leadership have had knowledge of these pictures and acts in one form or another since mid January yet nothing was done until 60 minutes broke the story. Point of fact is there was a concerted effort to keep these acts from the public eye in an effert to maintain support for this conflict.
SMITH:_Sir, we knew that there were photos on June 14th because that's how the investigation started -- I mean January 14th._When the soldier...
source
If you read the entire transcript (or watch the proceedings) you'll see that CBS was contacted about this story and asked not to air it. This was a cover up of a systematic problem, not an isolated incident.
Jesus Damn man, Bush didn't even find out about these photos until he saw them on TV!!! This was a coverup of a systematic problem.
Originally posted by NaplesX
Well then, if we are to go along with that, we must all be guilty by association, because of US citizenship.
Extremely tortured logic.
You are stalling and dodging simple questions. Again:
Do you condemn or condone acts such as this that I have described? And if you condemn them, how would capital punishment not fit this crime that I (and the media) have described?
If you don't feel fit to answer those questions, please state so instead of trying to sidetrack the thread. Thanks.
Originally posted by NaplesX
If this was a court of law, you would be shot down smartly for lack of evidence for your accusations.
Institutional?
Systematic?
"ICRC spokesman Roland Huguenin-Benjamin said the treatment of Iraqi prisoners "is not acceptable, and we are very worried that this might have been done in the full knowledge of the people in charge, and eventually condoned."
"This has to be investigated and responsibility has to be taken," he added."
Link
Which scuppers the 'few bad apples' theory right there.